Personally, I’d like to see togwaggle’s scheme be completely changed. I hate this card with a passion and it’s just horrible design anyway. It completely powercreeps gang up in wild making it an auto include in any value rogue deck. There is no reason whatsoever to use gang up now which is stupid. Besides shuffling 20 n’zoth into your deck for 1 mana is just absurd. It’s exactly like what jade idol did but WORSE. It wins you the long game for 1 mana but now there is NO skulking Geist to rip their 20 copies of n’zoth/coldlight Oracle/Tess greymane. You just can’t beat them. I remember when playing value rogue decks was fun because you actually had to work for your value... it was rewarding and satisfying! now it’s not :/
Ig I’m saying this because I love rogue (Or used to) that I want to see toggs scheme be absolutely murdered! It’s just not a fun card
My suggestion: Make it add coins to your hand instead (id really like this cause it can only give a max of 10 kinda like some of the other schemes there is a limit)
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
I'm surprised it's only really Braggart you agree with seeing as Paladin is less powerful than the other decks targeted, if that was the only nerf paladin would struggle more if other decks left the same. I obviously do think Braggart does need a slight nerf though.
Druid is oppressive right now when it draws well, which is often. Fair point on GA being a hunter card though hadn't considered that. I do think it's the ramp that needs targeting and it can't be Wild Growth. Using Wild growth as an example though, if 3 mana is worth 1 mana ramp overgrowth is obviously under costed at 4 mana. I think 5 mana is very reasonable in that case.
As mentioned looking at HSreplay at some bomb warrior decks, Blastmaster Boom literally has a 77%+ played win rate, that's insane I don't think I've seen anything as high nor can I find any looking now. Seems like a pretty obvious nerf candidate to target bomb warrior.
I don't think Tidal Wave will ever see serious play at 8 mana.
Argent Braggart is just the only nerf I agree with because it's a really simple nerf that nerfs a very excessively powerful card but keeps it very playable. I think there're other nerfs in classes that could happen, just don't agree with your specific nerf proposals.
Overgrowth at 5 mana is just so underwhelming and it's such a lynchpin card for Marsh Hydra, Bogbeam, etc. Even if it's too strong at 4. I think if there's an issue with druid, it might be the critical mass of ramp (Breath of Dreams, Wild Growth, Overgrowth), but without Overgrowth I think that deck (which isn't that strong) is pretty horrible. I think the bigger issue I have with ramp druid is how excessive it is at the top end, but I really don't know how to nerf those cards
If you nerf Bomb warrior overall you nerf Blastmaster Boom. Blastmaster Boom is entirely dependent on the deck's ability to put bombs into your opponent's deck. You nerf bombs, you nerf boom. But I'm not sure what form that should take. I think changing Wrenchcalibur to be BC/DR makes a lot of sense but that might be too hard a hit on the deck.
Remember that "played win-rate" isn't the only measure of a card's power. Pyroblast and Bloodlust have played WR in the 70s. Why? They aren't particularly powerful cards; what they are is finishers; You usually win when you play Pyroblast (or, say, Mind Blast when it was in standard) because playing that card IS your win-conditio.
Mage cards especially prime, box, and the hero. Priest garakrond as well.
I don't like the card that can swing turn completely and randomly. It feels waste of time to play against.
These are weird; Puzzle Box in particular gives you very much random gameplay; it can win for you, lose for you, or have very little effect. How much you like Puzzle Box is how much you like randomness.
Priest galakond is a different problem - infinite value. It makes an entire style of play difficult if not impossible. I don't know what, if anything, is the solution to that - or even if we need one.
age spells it can pull. Before Potion of Illusion, it wasn't an issue, since it couldn't reliably generate infinite copies of itself (let alone 1-mana copies!). Blizzard recently changed Discover cards to disallow them from discovering themselves, and I would argue that the Pilgrim/Potion interaction is philosophically the same as (or at the least, VERY similar to) "discovering itself," leading to anti-fun "gameplay." I put "gameplay" in quotes, because as I mentioned before, it effectively prevents the other player from playing the game.
The only counters I can think of are Living Dragonbreath (to get around the Freeze portion and allow minion usage) and Flik Skyshiv. The Dragonbreath only works if you have it in hand, and even then it only addresses the Frost Nova aspect. Flik is a class card, which is nice for Rogue, but doesn't help any of the other classes.
You can waste the 1 mana pilgrims with Mindrender Illucia. You can kill them "over the top" with burn spells or charge minions if your board isnt' full.
If you shuffle bombs (or anything else) into their deck it re-orders the whole thing, and they can lose the combo by drawing Potion of Illusion
Otherwise, think of it like any other combo deck; once you draw the combo, you (probably) win. The difference here is that the combo stretches over many turns, and frustratingly grinds you down. I don't think it's a balance issue, but can see it as a fun issue. Then again, if you hate that you can just concede once the turtles start being played.
yajh basically. it does feel like that nowadays. buffs and nerfs are good for the game, and keeping the meta fresh. Its already settled and un fun if you dont play those meta decks. Mix it up and keep it fresh!!!
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
Personally I'd like to see Voracious Reader nerfed to 4 mana and the card draw be made symmetrical. Maybe increase it's health by 1 in compensation. I'm sure it'd still see play. Also, make Intrepid Initiate into a 1/1. It would also see play.
In my opinion. Calling for balance changes every so often leads to a slipery slope.
Blizz should just intervene if a card/deck is obviously broken. Remember how nerfs and buffs were never a regular thing up until a certain expansion? (Boomsday I think). We all lived through it and it was all ok.
Nerfing and buffing just leads to FotM decks that fluctuate in performance to a point were a deck that you crafted can become quasi-useless.
Just because it's an online game and they can nerf/buff cards doesn't imply that they should.
Personally I'd like to see Voracious Reader nerfed to 4 mana and the card draw be made symmetrical. Maybe increase it's health by 1 in compensation. I'm sure it'd still see play. Also, make Intrepid Initiate into a 1/1. It would also see play.
Problem with it being a 1/1 though is it becomes way squishier, not just a little. It's an unplayable card on 1 against mage, for example, it gets pinged away with no draw back. Not forgetting you also have to play a card to activate the effect so unless you're using coin on 1 then there are plenty of times it would be a 2 turn activation and if you really can't deal with a 2 health minion over 2 turns on a consistent basis then maybe you need to tweak your deck rather than nerfing a card to fit around you.
It seems it would pretty much just kill the card. It survives zero trades and is susceptible to every single target removal card in the game. 2 health makes it fairly easy to kill but with enough to it that it's not almost guaranteed to be a worthless play.
If it was a real problem, you could nerf the spell burst or mana cost but again, it just starts to lose its value and purpose. Its a strong early game play but like I asked before, is it genuinely a problem card that needs a nerf? Do we nerf anything that's strong?
Personally I'd like to see Voracious Reader nerfed to 4 mana and the card draw be made symmetrical. Maybe increase it's health by 1 in compensation. I'm sure it'd still see play. Also, make Intrepid Initiate into a 1/1. It would also see play.
Problem with it being a 1/1 though is it becomes way squishier, not just a little. It's an unplayable card on 1 against mage, for example, it gets pinged away with no draw back. Not forgetting you also have to play a card to activate the effect so unless you're using coin on 1 then there are plenty of times it would be a 2 turn activation and if you really can't deal with a 2 health minion over 2 turns on a consistent basis then maybe you need to tweak your deck rather than nerfing a card to fit around you.
It seems it would pretty much just kill the card. It survives zero trades and is susceptible to every single target removal card in the game. 2 health makes it fairly easy to kill but with enough to it that it's not almost guaranteed to be a worthless play.
If it was a real problem, you could nerf the spell burst or mana cost but again, it just starts to lose its value and purpose. Its a strong early game play but like I asked before, is it genuinely a problem card that needs a nerf? Do we nerf anything that's strong?
Small-Time Buccaneer saw play post-nerf in aggressive decks, it just made those aggressive decks less powerful. And yes, mages existed back then.
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
I wouldn't disagree that infinite turtles is pretty broken, but I feel like it is just the same as any other combo deck.
1) You need to reach the point where you can play your combo first, which doesn't always happen, especially against aggro decks.
2) You need to build your deck with certain limitations to make the combo work, and it has flaws. (drawing both potions early)
If a Malygos druid gets their combo off, you're dead from 30 in one turn. Pretty un-interact-able, too, if you ask me. They just do it faster than turtle mage.
^ Lock or prison decks are a bit different than combo decks, and are historically more despised.
This, exactly.
I'm fine with combo decks. They're frustrating to lose to, but when it's a MalyDruid, you're at least put out of your misery quickly. TurtlePotion, on the other hand, is "I have my combo, but you're not dead, but you can't play, because I have my combo, so you can either quit or suffer an excruciatingly long death unless you have very specific class cards."
That's not fun. That's actively anti-fun. I can't support a deck whose win condition is "Make sure the other player stops having fun. It's not enough for them to lose; they must be miserable and impotent while losing."
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It does already?
Clearly you didnt pass school. Or learned reading with a donkey. Pay attention next time to understand whats going on.
Ironic.
Personally, I’d like to see togwaggle’s scheme be completely changed. I hate this card with a passion and it’s just horrible design anyway. It completely powercreeps gang up in wild making it an auto include in any value rogue deck. There is no reason whatsoever to use gang up now which is stupid. Besides shuffling 20 n’zoth into your deck for 1 mana is just absurd. It’s exactly like what jade idol did but WORSE. It wins you the long game for 1 mana but now there is NO skulking Geist to rip their 20 copies of n’zoth/coldlight Oracle/Tess greymane. You just can’t beat them. I remember when playing value rogue decks was fun because you actually had to work for your value... it was rewarding and satisfying! now it’s not :/
Ig I’m saying this because I love rogue (Or used to) that I want to see toggs scheme be absolutely murdered! It’s just not a fun card
My suggestion: Make it add coins to your hand instead (id really like this cause it can only give a max of 10 kinda like some of the other schemes there is a limit)
or up the mana cost to 5 (or atleast 4)
Argent Braggart is just the only nerf I agree with because it's a really simple nerf that nerfs a very excessively powerful card but keeps it very playable. I think there're other nerfs in classes that could happen, just don't agree with your specific nerf proposals.
Overgrowth at 5 mana is just so underwhelming and it's such a lynchpin card for Marsh Hydra, Bogbeam, etc. Even if it's too strong at 4. I think if there's an issue with druid, it might be the critical mass of ramp (Breath of Dreams, Wild Growth, Overgrowth), but without Overgrowth I think that deck (which isn't that strong) is pretty horrible. I think the bigger issue I have with ramp druid is how excessive it is at the top end, but I really don't know how to nerf those cards
If you nerf Bomb warrior overall you nerf Blastmaster Boom. Blastmaster Boom is entirely dependent on the deck's ability to put bombs into your opponent's deck. You nerf bombs, you nerf boom. But I'm not sure what form that should take. I think changing Wrenchcalibur to be BC/DR makes a lot of sense but that might be too hard a hit on the deck.
Mage cards especially prime, box, and the hero. Priest garakrond as well.
I don't like the card that can swing turn completely and randomly. It feels waste of time to play against.
Remember that "played win-rate" isn't the only measure of a card's power. Pyroblast and Bloodlust have played WR in the 70s. Why? They aren't particularly powerful cards; what they are is finishers; You usually win when you play Pyroblast (or, say, Mind Blast when it was in standard) because playing that card IS your win-conditio.
These are weird; Puzzle Box in particular gives you very much random gameplay; it can win for you, lose for you, or have very little effect. How much you like Puzzle Box is how much you like randomness.
Priest galakond is a different problem - infinite value. It makes an entire style of play difficult if not impossible. I don't know what, if anything, is the solution to that - or even if we need one.
You can waste the 1 mana pilgrims with Mindrender Illucia. You can kill them "over the top" with burn spells or charge minions if your board isnt' full.
If you shuffle bombs (or anything else) into their deck it re-orders the whole thing, and they can lose the combo by drawing Potion of Illusion
Otherwise, think of it like any other combo deck; once you draw the combo, you (probably) win. The difference here is that the combo stretches over many turns, and frustratingly grinds you down. I don't think it's a balance issue, but can see it as a fun issue. Then again, if you hate that you can just concede once the turtles start being played.
yajh basically. it does feel like that nowadays. buffs and nerfs are good for the game, and keeping the meta fresh. Its already settled and un fun if you dont play those meta decks. Mix it up and keep it fresh!!!
This is the real MVP Post.
Without Bomb warrior this meta is a clown fiesta of aggro.
Personally I'd like to see Voracious Reader nerfed to 4 mana and the card draw be made symmetrical. Maybe increase it's health by 1 in compensation. I'm sure it'd still see play. Also, make Intrepid Initiate into a 1/1. It would also see play.
In my opinion. Calling for balance changes every so often leads to a slipery slope.
Blizz should just intervene if a card/deck is obviously broken. Remember how nerfs and buffs were never a regular thing up until a certain expansion? (Boomsday I think). We all lived through it and it was all ok.
Nerfing and buffing just leads to FotM decks that fluctuate in performance to a point were a deck that you crafted can become quasi-useless.
Just because it's an online game and they can nerf/buff cards doesn't imply that they should.
Problem with it being a 1/1 though is it becomes way squishier, not just a little. It's an unplayable card on 1 against mage, for example, it gets pinged away with no draw back. Not forgetting you also have to play a card to activate the effect so unless you're using coin on 1 then there are plenty of times it would be a 2 turn activation and if you really can't deal with a 2 health minion over 2 turns on a consistent basis then maybe you need to tweak your deck rather than nerfing a card to fit around you.
It seems it would pretty much just kill the card. It survives zero trades and is susceptible to every single target removal card in the game. 2 health makes it fairly easy to kill but with enough to it that it's not almost guaranteed to be a worthless play.
If it was a real problem, you could nerf the spell burst or mana cost but again, it just starts to lose its value and purpose. Its a strong early game play but like I asked before, is it genuinely a problem card that needs a nerf? Do we nerf anything that's strong?
So.. you want to nerf the majority of classes. I'm sure you have a lot of unwanted opinions IRL, too.
Game is better than ever
Try buffing your skillz BRO
Small-Time Buccaneer saw play post-nerf in aggressive decks, it just made those aggressive decks less powerful. And yes, mages existed back then.
I wouldn't disagree that infinite turtles is pretty broken, but I feel like it is just the same as any other combo deck.
1) You need to reach the point where you can play your combo first, which doesn't always happen, especially against aggro decks.
2) You need to build your deck with certain limitations to make the combo work, and it has flaws. (drawing both potions early)
3) There are techs/answers to this combo. It isn't perfect. Flik Skyshiv, Living Dragonbreath, hero/weapon damage.
If a Malygos druid gets their combo off, you're dead from 30 in one turn. Pretty un-interact-able, too, if you ask me. They just do it faster than turtle mage.
That's just combo decks.
^ Lock or prison decks are a bit different than combo decks, and are historically more despised.
This, exactly.
I'm fine with combo decks. They're frustrating to lose to, but when it's a MalyDruid, you're at least put out of your misery quickly. TurtlePotion, on the other hand, is "I have my combo, but you're not dead, but you can't play, because I have my combo, so you can either quit or suffer an excruciatingly long death unless you have very specific class cards."
That's not fun. That's actively anti-fun. I can't support a deck whose win condition is "Make sure the other player stops having fun. It's not enough for them to lose; they must be miserable and impotent while losing."