I agree nerfs are needed, but I barely agree even with shaman.
Druid - Overgrowth to 5, yes. Remove rush from Guardians spell is even better.
Mage - Sorcerer's Apprentice can't reduce below 1, I don't know what turtle mage does, I kill them before.
DH - Lapi to 4, 4/4, give +4. That's it, enough with the DH nerfs, the class needa its day.
Warrior - Wrench to BC and DR, or bombs down to 3 dmg. Agree with Boom bots.
Paladin - braggart to 3 is fine, but Libram 'NOW' in deck and hand only get reduction is better (lady shouldn't create 0 mana cheat spells)
Rogue - Really, you want more? Finally we have a three decks that work without superior mana cheats.
Shaman - none agreed, because OL 1 means 'this card should cost the OL amount more'.
Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3. Portal is Lightning bolt (which is ok as is) + 3-cost, so 4-cost is fine. Tidal wave is a killer. But, both Forked Lightning and Lightning storm should be OL 1, Earth elemental at OL 2. We need the basic/classic fixed, not some set cards.
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
If Tortollan would remove from deck so should all other cards like Druid Guardian Spell with rush remove the minnions from deck.
I agree nerfs are needed, but I barely agree even with shaman.
Druid - Overgrowth to 5, yes. Remove rush from Guardians spell is even better.
Mage - Sorcerer's Apprentice can't reduce below 1, I don't know what turtle mage does, I kill them before.
DH - Lapi to 4, 4/4, give +4. That's it, enough with the DH nerfs, the class needa its day.
Warrior - Wrench to BC and DR, or bombs down to 3 dmg. Agree with Boom bots.
Paladin - braggart to 3 is fine, but Libram 'NOW' in deck and hand only get reduction is better (lady shouldn't create 0 mana cheat spells)
Rogue - Really, you want more? Finally we have a three decks that work without superior mana cheats.
Shaman - none agreed, because OL 1 means 'this card should cost the OL amount more'.
Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3. Portal is Lightning bolt (which is ok as is) + 3-cost, so 4-cost is fine. Tidal wave is a killer. But, both Forked Lightning and Lightning storm should be OL 1, Earth elemental at OL 2. We need the basic/classic fixed, not some set cards.
Still, a better nerf post than the utter most.
Your change to Sorcerer's Apprentice would I expect literally kill any variant of tempo mage, it's pretty much the whole deck popping off with combos.
I was considering Wrench BC or DR too but then does that make weapon removal worse?
Agree with Lapi, the introduction of Marrowslicer though makes Blade Dance a 2 mana clear the board. Seems too good for me personally.
For rogue I think it's nearly fine but a 3 mana 3/3 draw 2 it absurd. The power the deck gains from this combo on curve is too much for most decks to contest seeing as the deck is mostly just face burn. If we use your Shaman example "Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3" then Greyheart Sage is a mage spell with a 0 mana 3/3 body. That would then by your own argument need overload, correct? (Obviously it won't get overload as that's a Shaman mechanic, but should be a higher mana cost is my argument).
I do see your point with the Shaman cards though, the only thing is they're not played in their current state.
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
If Tortollan would remove from deck so should all other cards like Druid Guardian Spell with rush remove the minnions from deck.
I don't agree that every interaction should be homogenized. For example, Dimensional Ripper summons copies of Warrior minions, and at 10 mana (with no reliable way for Warrior to cheat it out early), that feels appropriately powerful. Pulling these minions from the deck would be a substantial (and, I would argue, unwarranted) nerf to this card, especially since the only deck it's used in also runs Commencement, and that DOES pull from the deck. I've run into several situations where my Rippers have nothing to copy, because I've already drawn/Commenced all the minions from my deck. Making Dimension Ripper thin the deck would make things much worse.
On the other hand, Tortollan Pilgrim has to be judged in the context of the Mage spells it can pull. Before Potion of Illusion, it wasn't an issue, since it couldn't reliably generate infinite copies of itself (let alone 1-mana copies!). Blizzard recently changed Discover cards to disallow them from discovering themselves, and I would argue that the Pilgrim/Potion interaction is philosophically the same as (or at the least, VERY similar to) "discovering itself," leading to anti-fun "gameplay." I put "gameplay" in quotes, because as I mentioned before, it effectively prevents the other player from playing the game.
The only counters I can think of are Living Dragonbreath (to get around the Freeze portion and allow minion usage) and Flik Skyshiv. The Dragonbreath only works if you have it in hand, and even then it only addresses the Frost Nova aspect. Flik is a class card, which is nice for Rogue, but doesn't help any of the other classes.
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
If Tortollan would remove from deck so should all other cards like Druid Guardian Spell with rush remove the minnions from deck.
I don't agree that every interaction should be homogenized. For example, Dimensional Ripper summons copies of Warrior minions, and at 10 mana (with no reliable way for Warrior to cheat it out early), that feels appropriately powerful. Pulling these minions from the deck would be a substantial (and, I would argue, unwarranted) nerf to this card, especially since the only deck it's used in also runs Commencement, and that DOES pull from the deck. I've run into several situations where my Rippers have nothing to copy, because I've already drawn/Commenced all the minions from my deck. Making Dimension Ripper thin the deck would make things much worse.
On the other hand, Tortollan Pilgrim has to be judged in the context of the Mage spells it can pull. Before Potion of Illusion, it wasn't an issue, since it couldn't reliably generate infinite copies of itself (let alone 1-mana copies!). Blizzard recently changed Discover cards to disallow them from discovering themselves, and I would argue that the Pilgrim/Potion interaction is philosophically the same as (or at the least, VERY similar to) "discovering itself," leading to anti-fun "gameplay." I put "gameplay" in quotes, because as I mentioned before, it effectively prevents the other player from playing the game.
The only counters I can think of are Living Dragonbreath (to get around the Freeze portion and allow minion usage) and Flik Skyshiv. The Dragonbreath only works if you have it in hand, and even then it only addresses the Frost Nova aspect. Flik is a class card, which is nice for Rogue, but doesn't help any of the other classes.
Yeah I’d forgotten about turtle mage, it’s a bit under the radar I think as it doesn’t see as much play as other decks but yeah probably will need addressing. If they nerfed old freeze mage for being uninteractive it makes sense that this will be the same
I'd prefer that the few classes that are under performing in the meta receive a few buffs to bring them in line with the others personally, rather than throw out more nerfs because this meta seems to be one of the healthiest we've seen in a while, with several competitive decks (in standard).
No one class is clearly dominating over all the others right now, like we've had in the past with decks like pirate warrior or shudderwock shaman. The only mild problem I see is that druid can high roll so hard that they can have 10 mana, several very powerful creatures and a full hand off cards as early as turn 4, but it's it's pretty rare and even then, they aren't completely unbeatable. So again, imo we should buff the worst classes slightly and keep the nerfing to a minimum. Just my 2 cents.
I would not say that Druid needs a nerf, its a combo that requires the right draw and you cannot persistently pull it off. Blizz seem to like this playstyle that sometimes you totally own somebody and then next game you suck badly.
Same accounts for DemonHunter its been nerfed enough. Sure the shard Cards are a bit too strong but overall its alright.
Mage is abit too much, especially the 70% chance to discover the prime. I always play against more than 1 Prime, plus the Prime is too powerful - Im still winning against Mage but just talking about cards. Same for Turtle or Mozaki it just feels bad playing against.
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
I'm surprised it's only really Braggart you agree with seeing as Paladin is less powerful than the other decks targeted, if that was the only nerf paladin would struggle more if other decks left the same. I obviously do think Braggart does need a slight nerf though.
Druid is oppressive right now when it draws well, which is often. Fair point on GA being a hunter card though hadn't considered that. I do think it's the ramp that needs targeting and it can't be Wild Growth. Using Wild growth as an example though, if 3 mana is worth 1 mana ramp overgrowth is obviously under costed at 4 mana. I think 5 mana is very reasonable in that case.
As mentioned looking at HSreplay at some bomb warrior decks, Blastmaster Boom literally has a 77%+ played win rate, that's insane I don't think I've seen anything as high nor can I find any looking now. Seems like a pretty obvious nerf candidate to target bomb warrior.
I don't think Tidal Wave will ever see serious play at 8 mana.
I agree nerfs are needed, but I barely agree even with shaman.
Druid - Overgrowth to 5, yes. Remove rush from Guardians spell is even better.
Mage - Sorcerer's Apprentice can't reduce below 1, I don't know what turtle mage does, I kill them before.
DH - Lapi to 4, 4/4, give +4. That's it, enough with the DH nerfs, the class needa its day.
Warrior - Wrench to BC and DR, or bombs down to 3 dmg. Agree with Boom bots.
Paladin - braggart to 3 is fine, but Libram 'NOW' in deck and hand only get reduction is better (lady shouldn't create 0 mana cheat spells)
Rogue - Really, you want more? Finally we have a three decks that work without superior mana cheats.
Shaman - none agreed, because OL 1 means 'this card should cost the OL amount more'.
Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3. Portal is Lightning bolt (which is ok as is) + 3-cost, so 4-cost is fine. Tidal wave is a killer. But, both Forked Lightning and Lightning storm should be OL 1, Earth elemental at OL 2. We need the basic/classic fixed, not some set cards.
Still, a better nerf post than the utter most.
Your change to Sorcerer's Apprentice would I expect literally kill any variant of tempo mage, it's pretty much the whole deck popping off with combos.
I was considering Wrench BC or DR too but then does that make weapon removal worse?
Agree with Lapi, the introduction of Marrowslicer though makes Blade Dance a 2 mana clear the board. Seems too good for me personally.
For rogue I think it's nearly fine but a 3 mana 3/3 draw 2 it absurd. The power the deck gains from this combo on curve is too much for most decks to contest seeing as the deck is mostly just face burn. If we use your Shaman example "Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3" then Greyheart Sage is a mage spell with a 0 mana 3/3 body. That would then by your own argument need overload, correct? (Obviously it won't get overload as that's a Shaman mechanic, but should be a higher mana cost is my argument).
I do see your point with the Shaman cards though, the only thing is they're not played in their current state.
Apprentice is almost the single cause the game feels bad when playing vs mage, because without it they actually need to combo properly. Make it 3 cost then, but That Is the card that needs nerfing. Turtle mage is BS.
Wrench able to shove more than 2 bombs is the point, instead of shoving 10 thanks to weapon effects, while the weapon deals very little damage to face by itselt And what hurts opponent is Their rng draws.
Sage is fine, it's an epic 3/3 for 3, requires a Board condition (tougher than holding a dragon, and certainly isn't a mage spell by itself), it delays attacks with the stealths, and rogue as aggro needs fuel. With the only other one being SP, which doesn't 'belong' to early turns, it's fine.
My point with shaman is mainly the long run. Sandstorm, Portal, and Eye DO see play, and all are fine as are, but if you lower the Forked & Storm OL to 1, the whole shaman scene would be ressurected, because right now if you do either you go 2 turns back vs aggro, or in other words - you basically give aggro a free turn. That one mana on basic/classic is way more meaningful.
I would nerf these type of posts and the people that whine over and over and over...
"How long can this go on?..."
this
I don't like these trend more than anyone, but I'll give OP his due he didn't go with the "there's one game where [card] was highrolling so nerf the bitch" BS.
Mage: Change Tortollan Pilgrim so that it casts the spell from the deck (removing it from the deck in the process) instead of casting a copy.
Combined with Potion of Illusion and Frost Nova, Tortollan Pilgrim makes the game 100% uninteractable for the opponent. It's not just that it's powerful. It's not just that it's annoying. It's that it makes the game literally unplayable for one of the players, and at that point it ceases to be a game. You can either concede or wait for the inevitable, but either way, you're not going to get a chance to play the game anymore that match. And that just feels lousy.
Pilgrim + Potion is a cool interaction, and sets you up to cheat some more mana. That's fine. But infinite Pilgrim + infinite Potion is bad for the game.
I agree nerfs are needed, but I barely agree even with shaman.
Druid - Overgrowth to 5, yes. Remove rush from Guardians spell is even better.
Mage - Sorcerer's Apprentice can't reduce below 1, I don't know what turtle mage does, I kill them before.
DH - Lapi to 4, 4/4, give +4. That's it, enough with the DH nerfs, the class needa its day.
Warrior - Wrench to BC and DR, or bombs down to 3 dmg. Agree with Boom bots.
Paladin - braggart to 3 is fine, but Libram 'NOW' in deck and hand only get reduction is better (lady shouldn't create 0 mana cheat spells)
Rogue - Really, you want more? Finally we have a three decks that work without superior mana cheats.
Shaman - none agreed, because OL 1 means 'this card should cost the OL amount more'.
Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3. Portal is Lightning bolt (which is ok as is) + 3-cost, so 4-cost is fine. Tidal wave is a killer. But, both Forked Lightning and Lightning storm should be OL 1, Earth elemental at OL 2. We need the basic/classic fixed, not some set cards.
Still, a better nerf post than the utter most.
I want dragoncaster back to 6 Mana
If Tortollan would remove from deck so should all other cards like Druid Guardian Spell with rush remove the minnions from deck.
Your change to Sorcerer's Apprentice would I expect literally kill any variant of tempo mage, it's pretty much the whole deck popping off with combos.
I was considering Wrench BC or DR too but then does that make weapon removal worse?
Agree with Lapi, the introduction of Marrowslicer though makes Blade Dance a 2 mana clear the board. Seems too good for me personally.
For rogue I think it's nearly fine but a 3 mana 3/3 draw 2 it absurd. The power the deck gains from this combo on curve is too much for most decks to contest seeing as the deck is mostly just face burn. If we use your Shaman example "Elemental is a mage spell on a 2/2, should cost 3" then Greyheart Sage is a mage spell with a 0 mana 3/3 body. That would then by your own argument need overload, correct? (Obviously it won't get overload as that's a Shaman mechanic, but should be a higher mana cost is my argument).
I do see your point with the Shaman cards though, the only thing is they're not played in their current state.
Ehm...it does? Guardian Animals summons 2 beasts, not copies of them
Yeah it does
I don't agree that every interaction should be homogenized. For example, Dimensional Ripper summons copies of Warrior minions, and at 10 mana (with no reliable way for Warrior to cheat it out early), that feels appropriately powerful. Pulling these minions from the deck would be a substantial (and, I would argue, unwarranted) nerf to this card, especially since the only deck it's used in also runs Commencement, and that DOES pull from the deck. I've run into several situations where my Rippers have nothing to copy, because I've already drawn/Commenced all the minions from my deck. Making Dimension Ripper thin the deck would make things much worse.
On the other hand, Tortollan Pilgrim has to be judged in the context of the Mage spells it can pull. Before Potion of Illusion, it wasn't an issue, since it couldn't reliably generate infinite copies of itself (let alone 1-mana copies!). Blizzard recently changed Discover cards to disallow them from discovering themselves, and I would argue that the Pilgrim/Potion interaction is philosophically the same as (or at the least, VERY similar to) "discovering itself," leading to anti-fun "gameplay." I put "gameplay" in quotes, because as I mentioned before, it effectively prevents the other player from playing the game.
The only counters I can think of are Living Dragonbreath (to get around the Freeze portion and allow minion usage) and Flik Skyshiv. The Dragonbreath only works if you have it in hand, and even then it only addresses the Frost Nova aspect. Flik is a class card, which is nice for Rogue, but doesn't help any of the other classes.
Any deck that beats you does not mean it must have a nerf because you lost playing with shaman
Yeah I’d forgotten about turtle mage, it’s a bit under the radar I think as it doesn’t see as much play as other decks but yeah probably will need addressing. If they nerfed old freeze mage for being uninteractive it makes sense that this will be the same
Nice (incorrect) assumption but already addressed this earlier in the thread.
I'd prefer that the few classes that are under performing in the meta receive a few buffs to bring them in line with the others personally, rather than throw out more nerfs because this meta seems to be one of the healthiest we've seen in a while, with several competitive decks (in standard).
No one class is clearly dominating over all the others right now, like we've had in the past with decks like pirate warrior or shudderwock shaman. The only mild problem I see is that druid can high roll so hard that they can have 10 mana, several very powerful creatures and a full hand off cards as early as turn 4, but it's it's pretty rare and even then, they aren't completely unbeatable. So again, imo we should buff the worst classes slightly and keep the nerfing to a minimum. Just my 2 cents.
I would not say that Druid needs a nerf, its a combo that requires the right draw and you cannot persistently pull it off. Blizz seem to like this playstyle that sometimes you totally own somebody and then next game you suck badly.
Same accounts for DemonHunter its been nerfed enough. Sure the shard Cards are a bit too strong but overall its alright.
Mage is abit too much, especially the 70% chance to discover the prime. I always play against more than 1 Prime, plus the Prime is too powerful - Im still winning against Mage but just talking about cards. Same for Turtle or Mozaki it just feels bad playing against.
I agree with nerfing Argent Braggart, but that's about it.
Guardian Animals can't be nerfed, it's also a hunter card and it's not a problem there at all. If this needs nerfed I think the target is Twilight Runner. I think Overgrowth would be a really lame card at 5 mana too. Barely better than Nourish at that point. Solarion Prime is strong but requires a ton of investment. I think the mage spell pool in general is a bigger problem, and Solarion Prime is another card that would just be kinda limp at 4 cards.
The Blastmaster Boom nerf is lame. That's really arbitrary. While it's a powerful card, I'd probably hit bomb warrior somewhere else. The wrenchcalibur nerf is a little more sensible I think, though that makes the card pretty weak in anything that's not strictly bomb warrior. The Demon Hunter nerfs seem totally unnecessary to me. So does Greyheart Sage. You could probably nerf it's stats a little. (2/3? 3/2?) But I think increasing it's cost really kills the card.
Shaman buffs might be okay, I think buffing Tidal Wave would be a huge mistake. But the Nithogg buff seems all right to me. The main problem with that is the card is cycling in six months, so I dunno if it's worth it. Vashj is fine.
Also yeah I'd like them to just kill Tortollan mage. I'm really not a fan of those sort of degenerative combo decks that just grind you out. There either needs to be more counterplay besides crummy tech cards, or they need to kill the deck.
this
I'm surprised it's only really Braggart you agree with seeing as Paladin is less powerful than the other decks targeted, if that was the only nerf paladin would struggle more if other decks left the same. I obviously do think Braggart does need a slight nerf though.
Druid is oppressive right now when it draws well, which is often. Fair point on GA being a hunter card though hadn't considered that. I do think it's the ramp that needs targeting and it can't be Wild Growth. Using Wild growth as an example though, if 3 mana is worth 1 mana ramp overgrowth is obviously under costed at 4 mana. I think 5 mana is very reasonable in that case.
As mentioned looking at HSreplay at some bomb warrior decks, Blastmaster Boom literally has a 77%+ played win rate, that's insane I don't think I've seen anything as high nor can I find any looking now. Seems like a pretty obvious nerf candidate to target bomb warrior.
I don't think Tidal Wave will ever see serious play at 8 mana.
Apprentice is almost the single cause the game feels bad when playing vs mage, because without it they actually need to combo properly. Make it 3 cost then, but That Is the card that needs nerfing. Turtle mage is BS.
Wrench able to shove more than 2 bombs is the point, instead of shoving 10 thanks to weapon effects, while the weapon deals very little damage to face by itselt And what hurts opponent is Their rng draws.
Sage is fine, it's an epic 3/3 for 3, requires a Board condition (tougher than holding a dragon, and certainly isn't a mage spell by itself), it delays attacks with the stealths, and rogue as aggro needs fuel. With the only other one being SP, which doesn't 'belong' to early turns, it's fine.
My point with shaman is mainly the long run. Sandstorm, Portal, and Eye DO see play, and all are fine as are, but if you lower the Forked & Storm OL to 1, the whole shaman scene would be ressurected, because right now if you do either you go 2 turns back vs aggro, or in other words - you basically give aggro a free turn. That one mana on basic/classic is way more meaningful.
I don't like these trend more than anyone, but I'll give OP his due he didn't go with the "there's one game where [card] was highrolling so nerf the bitch" BS.
Couldn't agree more with this.
Didnt play shaman much but have to agree 80% of what u have suggest
YES!
Bomb warrior also counters turtle mage