Yeah just kill the class that has been in the dumpster for years. You can all go back to playing broken ass gala rogue. Wouldn't that be fun!
The deck is strong, but it is far from as oppressive as other decks have been in the past.
I agree they can leave the deck, but I am so tired of this myth that paladin was unplayable. Paladin had workable decks, it's just that paladin players felt entitled to workable decks that they liked as well.
I don’t see any reason to nerf Paladin right now. There are multiple counters for the deck in the current meta. If you keep the board clear they can’t do anything with their buffs. It was performing really well as a counter to Druid in the first days of Scholomance, but now it is a tier 3 deck at best. Yes it can high roll, as any deck can in the meta. Don’t really see a reason to send Paladin back to the dumpster tier.
Lol, how do you figure it's tier 3? According to hsreplay it is the best deck in the game.
It has the highest win rate, that doesn’t mean that it is the best deck. Before Scholomance Murloc Paladin had the highest win rate for quite a while, though I don’t think anyone rated it as the best deck back then. Paladin is at a good spot in the meta right now, but other decks are catching up and its win rate will go down in the coming weeks. Let’s just let the meta develop before calling for nerfs. I’m basing it also on the opinion of pros, not just what they bring to GM, but also their opinions during streams. While I agree that the elimination format of last weekend is completely different from ladder, I don’t see why they wouldn’t bring it to the conquest format if it is as oppressive as some people in this thread make it out to be.
Also, to the "Why GM no play pally then??" comment, I'll just ignore that, as you failed to even realize how different the format is from the ladder experience. Comparing the two is one of, if not the biggest mistake someone can ever commit in terms of game balancing.
He has a point for ladder as well. In top 1000 legend, Paladin isn't played much either, and the only deck which showed up there with 200+ games played did not crack a 50% winrate. The top decks there lately in terms of winrate are Malygos druid, Bomb warrior and Stealth rogue.
Just chill, when the top players know how to counter it, eventually the rest will as well.
I played more than a 100 games with Pure Libram Paladin since the launch of Scholomance Academy and I can say that while being very powerful at first, now this archetype is easily countered. I had no problem killing Guardian Druids with it but fighting Stealth Rogues, Aggro Hunters and DH can be a pickle. I also had occasional problems dealing with some variations of Tempo and Turtle Mages.
The only thing I would change in this deck is the manacost for Argent Braggart. This card is ridiculous and can be an auto-concede for a player facing it in many cases.
I don’t see any reason to nerf Paladin right now. There are multiple counters for the deck in the current meta. If you keep the board clear they can’t do anything with their buffs. It was performing really well as a counter to Druid in the first days of Scholomance, but now it is a tier 3 deck at best. Yes it can high roll, as any deck can in the meta. Don’t really see a reason to send Paladin back to the dumpster tier.
Lol, how do you figure it's tier 3? According to hsreplay it is the best deck in the game.
It has the highest win rate, that doesn’t mean that it is the best deck. Before Scholomance Murloc Paladin had the highest win rate for quite a while, though I don’t think anyone rated it as the best deck back then. Paladin is at a good spot in the meta right now, but other decks are catching up and its win rate will go down in the coming weeks. Let’s just let the meta develop before calling for nerfs. I’m basing it also on the opinion of pros, not just what they bring to GM, but also their opinions during streams. While I agree that the elimination format of last weekend is completely different from ladder, I don’t see why they wouldn’t bring it to the conquest format if it is as oppressive as some people in this thread make it out to be.
Almost any good deck beats paladin. Bomb warrior, gala and highlander priest, almost all rogues, combo-demonhunter, turtle mage you name it. Maybe shaman has trouble vs paladin, but which deck is shaman good against? Cannot see why it needs nerfing.
The title is pretty self explanatory, and, honestly, undeniable at this point. The class is so oppressive in the current meta that half of archetypes have a variation of it among their 3 worst machups, and a lot of archetypes are just unviable due to how absurd the archetype is.
The question, however, is: how exactly would you nerf? What do you think is the issue specifically?
I'd say First Day of School will probably be changed to 1 mana and probably Blessing of Authority will get touched somehow, but what other cards do you personally see as issues?
There are a few ways that this deck can be handled quite easily (without flinging around the nerf hammer unnecessarily), and specifically, the control decks do a good job of it, if played properly. Anything with silence is your friend here (in the first instance) - hence Priest is a fantastic matchup against it. I've also taken to running a couple of silences in other decks (where possible). For those decks that cant run silence, you will have to dilute your deck slightly with some good spot/board removal. Yes it's annoying, yes it makes your deck slightly less OP than it might be otherwise, but this is the skill of deck building. It's normal.
If you're just trying to play some mad aggro face-deck in the hope of quick and easy wins to climb the ladder, then... well... I've got bad news for you, I'm afraid. :-) Some decks just stomp on others. And thus, we are all a part of the great circle of lif- uh.. Hearthstone... :-P
Blessing of Authority at 6 mana probably kills the card entirely. Blessing of Authority as a 5-mana +6/+6 would be better, if something happened to it. That'd also be a backdoor nerf to Argent Braggart, who could honestly stand to be 3 mana, like Edwin VanCleef. However, nerf Blessing of Authority enough, and Paladins probably just run Blessing of Kings. It's not as big, but it's cheaper and goes face.
I dunno. Maybe Libram of Hope is just a little too big. Getting an 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt as early as Turn 4 (I suppose maybe even 3 with the coin) can be pretty back-breaking. But I guess that's also a High Abbess Alura problem, and increasing her mana cost might be helpful.
Eh. This all supposes a nerf is needed. The arguments that the class doesn't need heavy hits have some merit to them. On the other hand, Grandmaster is really skewed. The entire format--particularly the potential to ban lists--is a really different format than Ladder. Pretty easy for something to be busted on Ladder, but not find a home in GM's Conquest format.
That's why the Specialist format was a great thing to test (even if it didn't really work out well). It tried to recreate the "one deck blind queued" experience of ladder, but the games were kinda boring and it was a failure of a format. I'm glad Bliz tried it out, and happier they moved on from it.
Sigh... late-night rambles...
I myself wouldn't touch the Libram cards (they were here last expansion, the deck was tier 3 at best), the problem lies elsewhere; High Abbess Alura's highroll potential is absolutely devastating, Devout Pupil is way too good for the cost, Goody Two-Shields is also too oppressive with 4 attack, I would look for nerfs here.
It's funny because I had someone arguing with me for a long time towards release that G2S was terrible, because Paladin had seen refreshing Divine Shield minions before and those had sucked. While technically an accurate history, a 3-mana 4/2 is just a lot better than a 4-mana 4/3 The Glass Knight, or a 5-mana 6/3 Cobalt Guardian. I'm not sure it'd nerf it, but it might be one of the better places to look.
Great point on Devout Pupil. Cards which get cost reductions are often really easy for the Dev's to underestimate. There have been occasional issues with Giants throughout a lot of the history of HS, and Corridor Creeper was a pretty big problem. The fact that the cost of these minions is so variable makes them really hard to balance properly. Seeing a stat nerf or a mana nerf here doesn't seem terrible. Like, a 7-mana 3/5 Devout Pupil is still probably pretty good and probably makes it into the decks.
It has the highest win rate, that doesn’t mean that it is the best deck.
I'm genuinely not being sarcastic, but what other metric could measure what is the "best deck" if not win rate?
IMO the high win rate of Paladin in these early days of the Scholomance meta is skewed due to some reasons:
1) It has a good matchup against Druid, which everyone was playing during the first days. Now that people realize that Druid does not always get the perfect curve it is played a lot less.
2) The deck sort of builds itself. Some slots are up for debate but most picks are obvious. Compare this to the Cyclone Mage that went through quite some iterations already and is probably still not optimal or the numerous Rogue builds that are out there.
3) The deck has a quite linear play style. I’m not saying it doesn’t require any skill at all but on average it has less decision points than other decks. High skill cap decks such as Patron Warrior probably didn’t have the highest win rate back then, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a tier 1 deck and was therefore nerfed.
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Yeah just kill the class that has been in the dumpster for years. You can all go back to playing broken ass gala rogue. Wouldn't that be fun!
The deck is strong, but it is far from as oppressive as other decks have been in the past.
I agree they can leave the deck, but I am so tired of this myth that paladin was unplayable. Paladin had workable decks, it's just that paladin players felt entitled to workable decks that they liked as well.
It has the highest win rate, that doesn’t mean that it is the best deck. Before Scholomance Murloc Paladin had the highest win rate for quite a while, though I don’t think anyone rated it as the best deck back then. Paladin is at a good spot in the meta right now, but other decks are catching up and its win rate will go down in the coming weeks. Let’s just let the meta develop before calling for nerfs. I’m basing it also on the opinion of pros, not just what they bring to GM, but also their opinions during streams. While I agree that the elimination format of last weekend is completely different from ladder, I don’t see why they wouldn’t bring it to the conquest format if it is as oppressive as some people in this thread make it out to be.
I got legend with pure libram pally before solomance.. and got legend again two days after solomance release with own build of pure pally,again.
Defenetly blessing of authority needs to cost 6 .. in my oppinion .. and 0 mana cost spell wont be bad to be changed to 1 mana.
Is just too easy to hirlghroll now,as there are multiple variants u can end the game by turn 5.
But .. wait..isnt that same story as rogue,hunter,and dh? So .. at this level the game is balanced.
He has a point for ladder as well. In top 1000 legend, Paladin isn't played much either, and the only deck which showed up there with 200+ games played did not crack a 50% winrate. The top decks there lately in terms of winrate are Malygos druid, Bomb warrior and Stealth rogue.
Just chill, when the top players know how to counter it, eventually the rest will as well.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
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I played more than a 100 games with Pure Libram Paladin since the launch of Scholomance Academy and I can say that while being very powerful at first, now this archetype is easily countered. I had no problem killing Guardian Druids with it but fighting Stealth Rogues, Aggro Hunters and DH can be a pickle. I also had occasional problems dealing with some variations of Tempo and Turtle Mages.
The only thing I would change in this deck is the manacost for Argent Braggart. This card is ridiculous and can be an auto-concede for a player facing it in many cases.
If you're tired of libram pally do this
1. Make a mage deck
2. Put in the following cards: devolving missiles, polymorph, the amazing Reno, spellbender
3. Fill the rest of the deck with good cards, go Highlander if you want
4. Eat paladins for breakfast, lunch and dinner
First Day of School is perfectly balanced and fair.
The only one problematic card is Blessing of Authority, getting a huge early highroll.
Oppressive implies that it's crushing ladder or crushing tournaments.
It's doing neither tho...
Sorry if it counters your favourite deck or something. But unless you have stats this is just a salt thread.
Yeah but saying it's tier 3 is nonsense.
Lose to other stuff more often. Besides, a good paladin player can still beat you.
Almost any good deck beats paladin. Bomb warrior, gala and highlander priest, almost all rogues, combo-demonhunter, turtle mage you name it. Maybe shaman has trouble vs paladin, but which deck is shaman good against? Cannot see why it needs nerfing.
There are a few ways that this deck can be handled quite easily (without flinging around the nerf hammer unnecessarily), and specifically, the control decks do a good job of it, if played properly.
Anything with silence is your friend here (in the first instance) - hence Priest is a fantastic matchup against it. I've also taken to running a couple of silences in other decks (where possible).
For those decks that cant run silence, you will have to dilute your deck slightly with some good spot/board removal. Yes it's annoying, yes it makes your deck slightly less OP than it might be otherwise, but this is the skill of deck building. It's normal.
If you're just trying to play some mad aggro face-deck in the hope of quick and easy wins to climb the ladder, then... well... I've got bad news for you, I'm afraid. :-)
Some decks just stomp on others. And thus, we are all a part of the great circle of lif- uh.. Hearthstone... :-P
Braggart tweak to 3 mana and leave the rest, deck is otherwise fine.
It's funny because I had someone arguing with me for a long time towards release that G2S was terrible, because Paladin had seen refreshing Divine Shield minions before and those had sucked. While technically an accurate history, a 3-mana 4/2 is just a lot better than a 4-mana 4/3 The Glass Knight, or a 5-mana 6/3 Cobalt Guardian. I'm not sure it'd nerf it, but it might be one of the better places to look.
Great point on Devout Pupil. Cards which get cost reductions are often really easy for the Dev's to underestimate. There have been occasional issues with Giants throughout a lot of the history of HS, and Corridor Creeper was a pretty big problem. The fact that the cost of these minions is so variable makes them really hard to balance properly. Seeing a stat nerf or a mana nerf here doesn't seem terrible. Like, a 7-mana 3/5 Devout Pupil is still probably pretty good and probably makes it into the decks.
You just dont know how to play vs it. Lmao. Btw Deck sometimes has useless hands.
I am small streamer from Poland, i love playing hearthstone and do my own decks.
Yo guys should learn about counters. There is a reason rogues are now everywhere.
What other stuff?
My Highlander mage is performing pretty well against the overall field at d5-1. Bomb warrior is probably the worst matchup, but still winnable.
I'm genuinely not being sarcastic, but what other metric could measure what is the "best deck" if not win rate?
IMO the high win rate of Paladin in these early days of the Scholomance meta is skewed due to some reasons:
1) It has a good matchup against Druid, which everyone was playing during the first days. Now that people realize that Druid does not always get the perfect curve it is played a lot less.
2) The deck sort of builds itself. Some slots are up for debate but most picks are obvious. Compare this to the Cyclone Mage that went through quite some iterations already and is probably still not optimal or the numerous Rogue builds that are out there.
3) The deck has a quite linear play style. I’m not saying it doesn’t require any skill at all but on average it has less decision points than other decks. High skill cap decks such as Patron Warrior probably didn’t have the highest win rate back then, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a tier 1 deck and was therefore nerfed.