The title is pretty self explanatory, and, honestly, undeniable at this point. The class is so oppressive in the current meta that half of archetypes have a variation of it among their 3 worst machups, and a lot of archetypes are just unviable due to how absurd the archetype is.
The question, however, is: how exactly would you nerf? What do you think is the issue specifically?
I'd say First Day of School will probably be changed to 1 mana and probably Blessing of Authority will get touched somehow, but what other cards do you personally see as issues?
As a Paladin only player, First Day of School is the perfect card to help control decks with early game and isn't as suppressive. Blessing of Authority on the other hand at 6 mana should be fairly balanced, but it would lose its sole purpose of gaining board control so there has to be another change. I personally think the class is still not as strong as many think, Paladins did get some juicy cards but nothing special. We definitely need a bit more time but Blessing of Authority is the only acceptable change that is a little bit unfair for the stats it provides.
Honestly, I can see what you're saying. The real issue isn't particularly the value the deck has, but rather how efficient a few of its tools are. In a meta where Spellbreaker doesn't exist, some of the options can literally shut down entire playstyles, such as Blessing of Authority or Libram of Hope. The real appropriate change really would be moving Spellbreaker back to Standard, but I highly doubt Blizzard will do that any time soon...
Also, to the "Why GM no play pally then??" comment, I'll just ignore that, as you failed to even realize how different the format is from the ladder experience. Comparing the two is one of, if not the biggest mistake someone can ever commit in terms of game balancing.
I don’t see any reason to nerf Paladin right now. There are multiple counters for the deck in the current meta. If you keep the board clear they can’t do anything with their buffs. It was performing really well as a counter to Druid in the first days of Scholomance, but now it is a tier 3 deck at best. Yes it can high roll, as any deck can in the meta. Don’t really see a reason to send Paladin back to the dumpster tier.
Literally no good reason to touch paladin right now. Or any class for that matter. The meta is actually in a decent place. I do believe druids mana cheating and ramping needs to be toned down a bit but other than that, this is just another salt post.
Literally no good reason to touch paladin right now. Or any class for that matter. The meta is actually in a decent place. I do believe druids mana cheating and ramping needs to be toned down a bit but other than that, this is just another salt post.
I made it to D1 3star with highlander mage then I fell back to D3 0 star because of all the rogues and warriors and lucky a** druids, then I thought fck it I give in, I created a Libram Pally deck (never played it before), went 10-2 and hit legend for the first time in an hour. Balanced :)
Blessing of Authority at 6 mana probably kills the card entirely. Blessing of Authority as a 5-mana +6/+6 would be better, if something happened to it. That'd also be a backdoor nerf to Argent Braggart, who could honestly stand to be 3 mana, like Edwin VanCleef. However, nerf Blessing of Authority enough, and Paladins probably just run Blessing of Kings. It's not as big, but it's cheaper and goes face.
I dunno. Maybe Libram of Hope is just a little too big. Getting an 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt as early as Turn 4 (I suppose maybe even 3 with the coin) can be pretty back-breaking. But I guess that's also a High Abbess Alura problem, and increasing her mana cost might be helpful.
Eh. This all supposes a nerf is needed. The arguments that the class doesn't need heavy hits have some merit to them. On the other hand, Grandmaster is really skewed. The entire format--particularly the potential to ban lists--is a really different format than Ladder. Pretty easy for something to be busted on Ladder, but not find a home in GM's Conquest format.
That's why the Specialist format was a great thing to test (even if it didn't really work out well). It tried to recreate the "one deck blind queued" experience of ladder, but the games were kinda boring and it was a failure of a format. I'm glad Bliz tried it out, and happier they moved on from it.
Blessing of Authority at 6 mana probably kills the card entirely. Blessing of Authority as a 5-mana +6/+6 would be better, if something happened to it. That'd also be a backdoor nerf to Argent Braggart, who could honestly stand to be 3 mana, like Edwin VanCleef. However, nerf Blessing of Authority enough, and Paladins probably just run Blessing of Kings. It's not as big, but it's cheaper and goes face.
I dunno. Maybe Libram of Hope is just a little too big. Getting an 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt as early as Turn 4 (I suppose maybe even 3 with the coin) can be pretty back-breaking. But I guess that's also a High Abbess Alura problem, and increasing her mana cost might be helpful.
Eh. This all supposes a nerf is needed. The arguments that the class doesn't need heavy hits have some merit to them. On the other hand, Grandmaster is really skewed. The entire format--particularly the potential to ban lists--is a really different format than Ladder. Pretty easy for something to be busted on Ladder, but not find a home in GM's Conquest format.
That's why the Specialist format was a great thing to test (even if it didn't really work out well). It tried to recreate the "one deck blind queued" experience of ladder, but the games were kinda boring and it was a failure of a format. I'm glad Bliz tried it out, and happier they moved on from it.
Sigh... late-night rambles...
I myself wouldn't touch the Libram cards (they were here last expansion, the deck was tier 3 at best), the problem lies elsewhere; High Abbess Alura's highroll potential is absolutely devastating, Devout Pupil is way too good for the cost, Goody Two-Shields is also too oppressive with 4 attack, I would look for nerfs here.
Paladin is a weird situation where nerfing is like how secret paladin was, the pieces are not broken but the synergy is.
First Day cannot be nerfed or its complete savagery garbage. Blessing can be nerfed to be "cannot attack this turn" or simply "cannot attack hero". Sure Paladin wont be garbage if Blessing gets nerfed, but it will be more balance sans silence and bounce
That's why the Specialist format was a great thing to test (even if it didn't really work out well). It tried to recreate the "one deck blind queued" experience of ladder, but the games were kinda boring and it was a failure of a format. I'm glad Bliz tried it out, and happier they moved on from it.
Blizz are actually doing Specialist format for this week's Grandmasters. Will be interesting to see what the pro's bring and how the games evolve.
I for one expect a lot of Priest mirrors.
OT: I don't play Paladin, and I'm not even sure I have a positive winrate against them or not, but I wouldn't nerf them. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think the meta needs to be allowed to work it's way out of this on its own.
I feel the meta is pretty balanced and fun right now.
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I get the feeling, this deck can be hard to deal with, but I don't think any card is super offensive in this deck. Against Pure Paladin you need to keep them off the board, while building your own pressure. Rogues, Demon Hunter, Warlock (run Plague of Flames), and Priest are all really good at this, whereas Warrior, Druid and Mage (I think) - struggle against this.
The archatype is pretty straightforward. That being said Argent Braggart could/should be changed to a higher mana cost. This card goes against the weakness of the deck, needing things on board for buffs, it just comes out buffed.
Also, to the "Why GM no play pally then??" comment, I'll just ignore that, as you failed to even realize how different the format is from the ladder experience. Comparing the two is one of, if not the biggest mistake someone can ever commit in terms of game balancing.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but since you obviously have done the analysis, I’d like you to specify.
What is it about the best of 5 conquest format, in your opinion, that makes Paladin unviable? I’m honestly very interested to hear your answer.
I don’t see any reason to nerf Paladin right now. There are multiple counters for the deck in the current meta. If you keep the board clear they can’t do anything with their buffs. It was performing really well as a counter to Druid in the first days of Scholomance, but now it is a tier 3 deck at best. Yes it can high roll, as any deck can in the meta. Don’t really see a reason to send Paladin back to the dumpster tier.
Lol, how do you figure it's tier 3? According to hsreplay it is the best deck in the game.
Libram p is the top dog, but I feel it's probably not the most oppressive front runner we've seen. Maybe we leave it be lest we get a worse frontrunner from nerfs.
I dunno. Maybe Libram of Hope is just a little too big. Getting an 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt as early as Turn 4 (I suppose maybe even 3 with the coin) can be pretty back-breaking. But I guess that's also a High Abbess Alura problem, and increasing her mana cost might be helpful.
You can't nerf these cards really. Alura is also a priest card and she's not a problem there at all.
I don't agree with nerfing first day at school or blessing of authority either. Blessing of Authority is VERY strong, but it's not a card that's easy to nerf and it's not the thing creating the issue really. Paladin's ability to put out lots of stats early in the game is the bigger issue. Also the lack of response effects in a lot of classes.
I agree it's the synergy between cards, which means IMO you hit some of the more staple cards, like revert the buff to Aldor Attendant which means the deck can't just dominate and go on the offensive on turn 1.
I think either way Argent Braggart could take a hit. 3-4 mana. 2 mana is just so cheap for how big it can get. That one I think would be a totally sensible nerf on the card that wouldn't dumpster the deck or anything.
Then if it is decided that Libram Paladin is still a problem:
Aldor Attendant back to 2 mana 2/3, Libram of Wisdom to 3 mana, or even 4 mana (but maybe as a +1/+2 instead of just +1/+1). That'd be a nerf to Devout Pupil in Paladin because it'd take a lot longer to reduce it's cost.
If blessing of authority got changed to the minion cannot attack heroes then I think that would be great change. They are fighting for board control to keep buffs rolling. Libram of hope to 10 mana would be good as well. The only problem with first day of school is the high till when they get the 1/3 that reduces Libram cost by one mana. But that IS hearthstone in a nutshell. It just feels bad to get beat by a Paladin deck lol
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such salt much BM.
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The title is pretty self explanatory, and, honestly, undeniable at this point. The class is so oppressive in the current meta that half of archetypes have a variation of it among their 3 worst machups, and a lot of archetypes are just unviable due to how absurd the archetype is.
The question, however, is: how exactly would you nerf? What do you think is the issue specifically?
I'd say First Day of School will probably be changed to 1 mana and probably Blessing of Authority will get touched somehow, but what other cards do you personally see as issues?
Yes thats why every GM is playing paladin right now
SOOoOOOo oppressive
This means nothing. Priest get always nerfs before he become problematic.
As a Paladin only player, First Day of School is the perfect card to help control decks with early game and isn't as suppressive. Blessing of Authority on the other hand at 6 mana should be fairly balanced, but it would lose its sole purpose of gaining board control so there has to be another change. I personally think the class is still not as strong as many think, Paladins did get some juicy cards but nothing special. We definitely need a bit more time but Blessing of Authority is the only acceptable change that is a little bit unfair for the stats it provides.
Honestly, I can see what you're saying. The real issue isn't particularly the value the deck has, but rather how efficient a few of its tools are. In a meta where Spellbreaker doesn't exist, some of the options can literally shut down entire playstyles, such as Blessing of Authority or Libram of Hope. The real appropriate change really would be moving Spellbreaker back to Standard, but I highly doubt Blizzard will do that any time soon...
Also, to the "Why GM no play pally then??" comment, I'll just ignore that, as you failed to even realize how different the format is from the ladder experience. Comparing the two is one of, if not the biggest mistake someone can ever commit in terms of game balancing.
I don’t see any reason to nerf Paladin right now. There are multiple counters for the deck in the current meta. If you keep the board clear they can’t do anything with their buffs. It was performing really well as a counter to Druid in the first days of Scholomance, but now it is a tier 3 deck at best. Yes it can high roll, as any deck can in the meta. Don’t really see a reason to send Paladin back to the dumpster tier.
Literally no good reason to touch paladin right now. Or any class for that matter. The meta is actually in a decent place. I do believe druids mana cheating and ramping needs to be toned down a bit but other than that, this is just another salt post.
Very much agreed.
I made it to D1 3star with highlander mage then I fell back to D3 0 star
because of all the rogues and warriors and lucky a** druids, then I thought fck it I give in, I created a Libram Pally deck (never played it before), went 10-2 and hit legend for the first time in an hour. Balanced :)Blessing of Authority at 6 mana probably kills the card entirely. Blessing of Authority as a 5-mana +6/+6 would be better, if something happened to it. That'd also be a backdoor nerf to Argent Braggart, who could honestly stand to be 3 mana, like Edwin VanCleef. However, nerf Blessing of Authority enough, and Paladins probably just run Blessing of Kings. It's not as big, but it's cheaper and goes face.
I dunno. Maybe Libram of Hope is just a little too big. Getting an 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt as early as Turn 4 (I suppose maybe even 3 with the coin) can be pretty back-breaking. But I guess that's also a High Abbess Alura problem, and increasing her mana cost might be helpful.
Eh. This all supposes a nerf is needed. The arguments that the class doesn't need heavy hits have some merit to them. On the other hand, Grandmaster is really skewed. The entire format--particularly the potential to ban lists--is a really different format than Ladder. Pretty easy for something to be busted on Ladder, but not find a home in GM's Conquest format.
That's why the Specialist format was a great thing to test (even if it didn't really work out well). It tried to recreate the "one deck blind queued" experience of ladder, but the games were kinda boring and it was a failure of a format. I'm glad Bliz tried it out, and happier they moved on from it.
Sigh... late-night rambles...
I myself wouldn't touch the Libram cards (they were here last expansion, the deck was tier 3 at best), the problem lies elsewhere; High Abbess Alura's highroll potential is absolutely devastating, Devout Pupil is way too good for the cost, Goody Two-Shields is also too oppressive with 4 attack, I would look for nerfs here.
Paladin is a weird situation where nerfing is like how secret paladin was, the pieces are not broken but the synergy is.
First Day cannot be nerfed or its complete savagery garbage. Blessing can be nerfed to be "cannot attack this turn" or simply "cannot attack hero". Sure Paladin wont be garbage if Blessing gets nerfed, but it will be more balance sans silence and bounce
Blizz are actually doing Specialist format for this week's Grandmasters. Will be interesting to see what the pro's bring and how the games evolve.
I for one expect a lot of Priest mirrors.
OT: I don't play Paladin, and I'm not even sure I have a positive winrate against them or not, but I wouldn't nerf them. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think the meta needs to be allowed to work it's way out of this on its own.
I feel the meta is pretty balanced and fun right now.
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I get the feeling, this deck can be hard to deal with, but I don't think any card is super offensive in this deck. Against Pure Paladin you need to keep them off the board, while building your own pressure. Rogues, Demon Hunter, Warlock (run Plague of Flames), and Priest are all really good at this, whereas Warrior, Druid and Mage (I think) - struggle against this.
The archatype is pretty straightforward. That being said Argent Braggart could/should be changed to a higher mana cost. This card goes against the weakness of the deck, needing things on board for buffs, it just comes out buffed.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but since you obviously have done the analysis, I’d like you to specify.
What is it about the best of 5 conquest format, in your opinion, that makes Paladin unviable? I’m honestly very interested to hear your answer.
Lol, how do you figure it's tier 3? According to hsreplay it is the best deck in the game.
Libram p is the top dog, but I feel it's probably not the most oppressive front runner we've seen. Maybe we leave it be lest we get a worse frontrunner from nerfs.
You can't nerf these cards really. Alura is also a priest card and she's not a problem there at all.
I don't agree with nerfing first day at school or blessing of authority either. Blessing of Authority is VERY strong, but it's not a card that's easy to nerf and it's not the thing creating the issue really. Paladin's ability to put out lots of stats early in the game is the bigger issue. Also the lack of response effects in a lot of classes.
I agree it's the synergy between cards, which means IMO you hit some of the more staple cards, like revert the buff to Aldor Attendant which means the deck can't just dominate and go on the offensive on turn 1.
I think either way Argent Braggart could take a hit. 3-4 mana. 2 mana is just so cheap for how big it can get. That one I think would be a totally sensible nerf on the card that wouldn't dumpster the deck or anything.
Then if it is decided that Libram Paladin is still a problem:
Aldor Attendant back to 2 mana 2/3, Libram of Wisdom to 3 mana, or even 4 mana (but maybe as a +1/+2 instead of just +1/+1). That'd be a nerf to Devout Pupil in Paladin because it'd take a lot longer to reduce it's cost.
If blessing of authority got changed to the minion cannot attack heroes then I think that would be great change. They are fighting for board control to keep buffs rolling. Libram of hope to 10 mana would be good as well. The only problem with first day of school is the high till when they get the 1/3 that reduces Libram cost by one mana. But that IS hearthstone in a nutshell. It just feels bad to get beat by a Paladin deck lol
such salt much BM.