Kael'thas Sunstrider is actually one of the cards, which in my opinion, just had to be changed. His sole existance made so many broken combos possible, that he just had to be changed in some way. I'd be happy to see more cards like Forest Warden Omu or Ysiel Windsinger, with which you can actually do broken stuff, but you also have to think a bit, both while playing and building the deck. With Kael'thas it has always just been: "Ok, let's put tons of cheap spells in and some incredible payoff expensive spells". Genuinely it's difficult to compare these two cards, but I'd compare him anyway to Equality. It was nerfed (from 2 mana to 4) back in Rastakhan's Rumble. It didn't happen because the card was nuts, played in every deck and just way too powerfull. The reason that it was nerfed, was because it allowed a certain combo ( in a Tier 2 deck, just like Guardian Druid now) that felt too disgusting and unhealthy for the game.
Kael'thas Sunstrider is actually one of the cards, which in my opinion, just had to be changed. His sole existance made so many broken combos possible, that he just had to be changed in some way. I'd be happy to see more cards like Forest Warden Omu or Ysiel Windsinger, with which you can actually do broken stuff, but you also have to think a bit, both while playing and building the deck. With Kael'thas it has always just been: "Ok, let's put tons of cheap spells in and some incredible payoff expensive spells". Genuinely it's difficult to compare these two cards, but I'd compare him anyway to Equality. It was nerfed (from 2 mana to 4) back in Rastakhan's Rumble. It didn't happen because the card was nuts, played in every deck and just way too powerfull. The reason that it was nerfed, was because it allowed a certain combo ( in a Tier 2 deck, just like Guardian Druid now) that felt too disgusting and unhealthy for the game.
your wrong about equality it was hardly in any deck at the time when there nerfed it.. thats why many did not know why it was nerfed
Kael'thas Sunstrider is actually one of the cards, which in my opinion, just had to be changed. His sole existance made so many broken combos possible, that he just had to be changed in some way. I'd be happy to see more cards like Forest Warden Omu or Ysiel Windsinger, with which you can actually do broken stuff, but you also have to think a bit, both while playing and building the deck. With Kael'thas it has always just been: "Ok, let's put tons of cheap spells in and some incredible payoff expensive spells". Genuinely it's difficult to compare these two cards, but I'd compare him anyway to Equality. It was nerfed (from 2 mana to 4) back in Rastakhan's Rumble. It didn't happen because the card was nuts, played in every deck and just way too powerfull. The reason that it was nerfed, was because it allowed a certain combo ( in a Tier 2 deck, just like Guardian Druid now) that felt too disgusting and unhealthy for the game.
your wrong about equality it was hardly in any deck at the time when there nerfed it.. thats why many did not know why it was nerfed
You proved my point. That's what I wanted wanted to say. I compared Kaelthas to Equality, because both of these cards were nerfed, even though they were not part of a tier 1 deck. Kaelthas is much more disgusting than Equality was, but still I think they are comparable.
Personally I VASTLY prefer the buffing approach but It is undeniable that some cards (expecially the ones that get to have an immensely powerful effect early on) can end up being oppressive...just look at big priest or """"""Control"""""" warlock in wild....they completely nullify ANY attempt at a midrange/value centric deck thanks to their immense mana cheating as early as turn 4/5....Building big boards this early creates a "clear or die" scenario that makes the game a coinflip of "did you draw (e.g.) brawl by turn 5? Yes-->congrats you're alive, no---> sucks to suck you're dead" and these are situations that are just not fun to find yourself into....therefore warranting a Nerf
Another example: (still wild,sry I haven't played standard since FLJ left) raza priest....there is Simply NO way for a Control deck to answer a relatively early Razanduin (and honestly if they build It the "unfair" way It STILL doesn't really matter when they draw It)
I got a little off topic but the point is: nerfs shouldn't be too prevalent but if a card (or a deck) ends up completely decimating the competition (or most of It anyway) the Nerf Hammer should definetly strike
Nerfs could be accompanied by some freebies (e.g. dust) to offset the costs of complimentary cards that have been crafted and any feeling of being cheated as mentioned by the OP; basically a corrective measure for releasing OP or unbalanced cards.
I don't get it. Why are so many people calling for more and more nerfs? For me - nerfs ruin all the fun and excitement in the game.
What's the point in releasing powerful new cards, when they'll get nerfed anyway?
I always feel cheated. Oh wow, there are these awesome cards that make or break a deck .... aaand they're gone!
Well, then I'll play an old but strong deck in Wild instead .... aaand it's gone!
Why does it always have to be nerfs? A lot of the time, nerfs totally obliterate a card. Congratulations, Kael'thas Sunstrider is trash now, never to be seen again! One nerf wasn't enough, finally it will be dust. Is that really what you want all your potentially powerful cards to be? Just dust in the wind? There are already so many cards no one ever plays ....
All that happens: a little less powerful cards/decks will become Tier 1 now. And then they'll get nerfed eventually.
Why can't there be these very strong cards for very strong decks? If people are tired of playing against them, change the Ranked System instead. Maybe create another Mode with a banlist instead of nefing cards to death? Or at least buff cards so that they can be used to take on these Tier 1 decks. There are so many options better then creating an ever growing pile of dust.
Just my unpopular opinion.
If you seriously think that Kael'thas didn't need this nerf, then at best I question your aptitude in this game. At worst, I question your basic intelligence.
It's impossible to get balancing perfect especially on a release of a new set of cards, of course they'll need to be able tweak cards. They can't anticipate all the combos thousands of players will come up with. Also as other people have said it keeps the meta fresh too.
Thinking Kael'thas is fine in the current format is laughable. Sometimes it's ok but it can create turns occasionally that are literally auto win, think old quest rogue.
Yeah, OP missed the fact Kael'thas Sunstrider cannot be disenchanted. Trying to prove a point most of us disagree with that way is far from being optimal. Not trying to make fun of him, just pointing that out.
1) print cards which are obviously going to end up busted. Said cards end up busted and need nerfed - shocker
2) Nerf cards no one is really bothered about while ignoring the obvious culprates (which is definitely not motivated by the dust refunds)
3) Nerf cards into oblivion to the point they will never ever see play again. Why not just delete it?
They could be much more clever with the nerfs as well, but on the other hand I guess its probably quite difficult to know how big an impact some of the changes could be.
- Funnily enough, I didn't play that deck once. This topic is not just about the Kael'thas nerf. It's about nerfs in general.
I want to give a different perspective. Blizzard has recently changed the mechanics of many cards that produced 0 cost results changing them to now cost 1 instead. I don't see this as a Nerf to Kael'Thas so much as it's bringing him in line with the new structure being implemented. Keeping mechanics consistent. If there are more cards that are printed that produce similar effects I can see blizzard keeping it at 1 cost cards now, rather than 0 cost.
Sorry, what was your point again? Your opinion is not unpopular, it's just bad.
Again: it's not just about the Kael'thas nerf and not about free cards. It's not even about dust.
It's about the whole history of nerfs. I think they nerf WAAAAY too much. Especially unique cards. And often they kill entire archetypes just because they've become a challenge in the meta. And I like a challenge. If a deck is very strong and you would lose to it more often than not .... don't just cry for nerfs. Build your own meta-killer deck. It's not impossible. That is fun in my (bad) opinion. Focus more on "how am I going to beat this"? If more players would think like this - ultimatly - the meta would change as well.
Also if certain cards (like Kael'thas) are nerfed - a lot of the time - the most powerful deck using them, will still be around. But not Tier 1 anymoe. And I think that's BS also. Almost all the Tier 1 decks get hit by nerfs eventually. Just for the sake of bringing them down. Therefore meta-shifts rarely feel genuin. And Tier 2 or 3 decks using said nerfed cards disappear complety. because they're trash now. That's my point. It was not just Guardian Druid, that used Kael'thas. A lot of other combo potential is lost now. And the same thing can be said about most of the cards hit by nerfs.
And with cards changing so much to the worse, I always feel like "Let's build this deck, play it a couple times .... but next week it might be gone. Fantastic."
Kael'thas Sunstrider is actually one of the cards, which in my opinion, just had to be changed. His sole existance made so many broken combos possible, that he just had to be changed in some way. I'd be happy to see more cards like Forest Warden Omu or Ysiel Windsinger, with which you can actually do broken stuff, but you also have to think a bit, both while playing and building the deck. With Kael'thas it has always just been: "Ok, let's put tons of cheap spells in and some incredible payoff expensive spells". Genuinely it's difficult to compare these two cards, but I'd compare him anyway to Equality. It was nerfed (from 2 mana to 4) back in Rastakhan's Rumble. It didn't happen because the card was nuts, played in every deck and just way too powerfull. The reason that it was nerfed, was because it allowed a certain combo ( in a Tier 2 deck, just like Guardian Druid now) that felt too disgusting and unhealthy for the game.
What is "disgusting and unhealthy"? That's the mindset that erases combo-decks from the game entirely. Because there will always be these decks, that can abuse certain cards to an extend. And therefore they must always be nerfed? Maybe our way to look at the game is just to different .... when I lose to a powerful combo-turn, it doesn't bother me at all. But when cards get changed over and over, I feel cheated. They advertise one thing, but in the end you'll get something different (and more often than not - useless).
Another example: (still wild,sry I haven't played standard since FLJ left) raza priest....there is Simply NO way for a Control deck to answer a relatively early Razanduin (and honestly if they build It the "unfair" way It STILL doesn't really matter when they draw It)
Kael'thas Sunstrider is actually one of the cards, which in my opinion, just had to be changed. His sole existance made so many broken combos possible, that he just had to be changed in some way. I'd be happy to see more cards like Forest Warden Omu or Ysiel Windsinger, with which you can actually do broken stuff, but you also have to think a bit, both while playing and building the deck. With Kael'thas it has always just been: "Ok, let's put tons of cheap spells in and some incredible payoff expensive spells". Genuinely it's difficult to compare these two cards, but I'd compare him anyway to Equality. It was nerfed (from 2 mana to 4) back in Rastakhan's Rumble. It didn't happen because the card was nuts, played in every deck and just way too powerfull. The reason that it was nerfed, was because it allowed a certain combo ( in a Tier 2 deck, just like Guardian Druid now) that felt too disgusting and unhealthy for the game.
your wrong about equality it was hardly in any deck at the time when there nerfed it.. thats why many did not know why it was nerfed
You proved my point. That's what I wanted wanted to say. I compared Kaelthas to Equality, because both of these cards were nerfed, even though they were not part of a tier 1 deck. Kaelthas is much more disgusting than Equality was, but still I think they are comparable.
Personally I VASTLY prefer the buffing approach but It is undeniable that some cards (expecially the ones that get to have an immensely powerful effect early on) can end up being oppressive...just look at big priest or """"""Control"""""" warlock in wild....they completely nullify ANY attempt at a midrange/value centric deck thanks to their immense mana cheating as early as turn 4/5....Building big boards this early creates a "clear or die" scenario that makes the game a coinflip of "did you draw (e.g.) brawl by turn 5? Yes-->congrats you're alive, no---> sucks to suck you're dead" and these are situations that are just not fun to find yourself into....therefore warranting a Nerf
Another example: (still wild,sry I haven't played standard since FLJ left) raza priest....there is Simply NO way for a Control deck to answer a relatively early Razanduin (and honestly if they build It the "unfair" way It STILL doesn't really matter when they draw It)
I got a little off topic but the point is: nerfs shouldn't be too prevalent but if a card (or a deck) ends up completely decimating the competition (or most of It anyway) the Nerf Hammer should definetly strike
Nerfs could be accompanied by some freebies (e.g. dust) to offset the costs of complimentary cards that have been crafted and any feeling of being cheated as mentioned by the OP; basically a corrective measure for releasing OP or unbalanced cards.
Nerfs are necessary.
Kael'thas Sunstrider was necessary. This card allows broken combos in standard and wild. By the way, 1 mana more doesn't kill the decks and/or combos.
Mindrender Illucia is a pointless nerf. This card is still very good. 1 mana more doesn't change anything.
If you seriously think that Kael'thas didn't need this nerf, then at best I question your aptitude in this game. At worst, I question your basic intelligence.
you clearly know noting... you probly said the same on the bird that put 2x 1/1 in the there deck
Illucia at 3 makes it impossible to play enemy 8-drops though which means you won't be able to take win condition of some decks
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
Nerfs are essential, we never had enough in the past, and they were too slow when they arrived, we barely get enough now.
Yeah, no.
It's impossible to get balancing perfect especially on a release of a new set of cards, of course they'll need to be able tweak cards. They can't anticipate all the combos thousands of players will come up with. Also as other people have said it keeps the meta fresh too.
Thinking Kael'thas is fine in the current format is laughable. Sometimes it's ok but it can create turns occasionally that are literally auto win, think old quest rogue.
Yeah, OP missed the fact Kael'thas Sunstrider cannot be disenchanted. Trying to prove a point most of us disagree with that way is far from being optimal. Not trying to make fun of him, just pointing that out.
Don't worry bro you can use Ysiel lmfao
The issue for me is that they either:
1) print cards which are obviously going to end up busted. Said cards end up busted and need nerfed - shocker
2) Nerf cards no one is really bothered about while ignoring the obvious culprates (which is definitely not motivated by the dust refunds)
3) Nerf cards into oblivion to the point they will never ever see play again. Why not just delete it?
They could be much more clever with the nerfs as well, but on the other hand I guess its probably quite difficult to know how big an impact some of the changes could be.
Ka'el still playable.
I am not going to even read the whole thread, which means I may be repeating someone else's thoughts.
But after seeing this:
I want to give a different perspective.
Blizzard has recently changed the mechanics of many cards that produced 0 cost results changing them to now cost 1 instead.
I don't see this as a Nerf to Kael'Thas so much as it's bringing him in line with the new structure being implemented.
Keeping mechanics consistent.
If there are more cards that are printed that produce similar effects I can see blizzard keeping it at 1 cost cards now, rather than 0 cost.
Cute, ineffective, but cute.
Again: it's not just about the Kael'thas nerf and not about free cards. It's not even about dust.
It's about the whole history of nerfs. I think they nerf WAAAAY too much. Especially unique cards. And often they kill entire archetypes just because they've become a challenge in the meta. And I like a challenge. If a deck is very strong and you would lose to it more often than not .... don't just cry for nerfs. Build your own meta-killer deck. It's not impossible. That is fun in my (bad) opinion. Focus more on "how am I going to beat this"? If more players would think like this - ultimatly - the meta would change as well.
Also if certain cards (like Kael'thas) are nerfed - a lot of the time - the most powerful deck using them, will still be around. But not Tier 1 anymoe. And I think that's BS also. Almost all the Tier 1 decks get hit by nerfs eventually. Just for the sake of bringing them down. Therefore meta-shifts rarely feel genuin. And Tier 2 or 3 decks using said nerfed cards disappear complety. because they're trash now. That's my point. It was not just Guardian Druid, that used Kael'thas. A lot of other combo potential is lost now. And the same thing can be said about most of the cards hit by nerfs.
And with cards changing so much to the worse, I always feel like "Let's build this deck, play it a couple times .... but next week it might be gone. Fantastic."
What is "disgusting and unhealthy"? That's the mindset that erases combo-decks from the game entirely. Because there will always be these decks, that can abuse certain cards to an extend. And therefore they must always be nerfed? Maybe our way to look at the game is just to different .... when I lose to a powerful combo-turn, it doesn't bother me at all. But when cards get changed over and over, I feel cheated. They advertise one thing, but in the end you'll get something different (and more often than not - useless).
How to answer Raza Priest: Build a Highlander deck, put in Sir Finley Mrrgglton and Grizzled Wizard. Done.