I have often heard that balance is a 3 legged stool. With contol>aggro>combo>control.
So i often opt for control decks. When I face up against a combo deck and lose, i dont feel that bad, because i expected that matchup to be highly unfavored. And on the flip side i expect to be highly favored when facing aggro decks.
But i dont feel like im all that favored vs. Aggro. Maybe my deck is built wrong. Maybe i am just a bad player. But to me it feels like i lack the correct tools to deal with aggro. No tar creeper, or duskbreaker, or even mass hysteria. I have several tools that deal 2 damage and that is pretty good vs. Demon Hunter, but most of the other aggro decks are quickly passing that 2 health breakpoint and leaving me helpless.
I guess i could shut up and play warlock. They probably have the tools to play control. But my "control" priest feels pretty toothless in the aggro matchup. Heck, even demon hunter is something of a 50/50 proposition.
So, do you agree? Has control's toolbox become too empty to be highly favored vs. Aggro?
Control is a doubled edged sword since aggro cards are some of the most efficient cards for stats vs mana in the game. My Reno priest is heavily built to beat aggro, but that unfortunately means I almost always lose against other control decks.
But with that said I think the game lacks a real punish for decks that throw up their hands in the first few turns. In fact more cards are getting made to reward this method of play in cheap efficient card draw. We need more cards that look at board size and do something like 7 mana 4/4 Costs 1 less for each minion in play. Battlecry: deal 4 damage to all other minions.
I’m doing ok with control priest, but I agree, control is a bit weak right now compared to last year. We may get some more control tools next expansion though, but the loss of mass hysteria without a replacement hurts. Breath of the infinite and holy nova are ok at clearing small boards, but priest is missing a mid cost clear in between breath of the infinite and plague of death. Dragonfire potion, duskbreaker, mass hysteria, psychic scream, excavated evil... all these would work and are currently missing in a control package.
100% agree. Card draw is the culprit. Over the top hand refill and value in agro is why this is happening.
It's my opinion that Skull of Guldan was the and still is the worse offender in DH decks, and Blizzard refuses to address it. Consistency is key and agro decks depend on it most, if they can draw their entire deck by t10 they will find the answer everytime.
Control was dead last expansion too, tempo, with RNG and unlimited value pretty much killed it.
Control is fine right now, not as good as aggro or Control Warrior of last year.
In general, off the three legs, control has always been the weakest one. Control decks can lose to aggro deck very often but Combo decks rarely lose to control decks and it is a toss-up between aggro and combo on who will be stronger in the meta.
Priest is one of the best decks on ladder right now.
Big Warrior and Highlander Mage are also T2 decks.
priest is number 7 on HS replay with a combined win rate of 48.4%. It's nowhere near being a top class. Before the xpansion I played rogue with a 14-3 record vs priest alone.
priest is number 7 on HS replay with a combined win rate of 48.4%. It's nowhere near being a top class. Before the xpansion I played rogue with a 14-3 record vs priest alone.
The front page of hsreplay is not a reliable resource.
Check vS.
Also why would your pre expansion record against priest mean anything now?
Basically it depends heavily on early board control. I play only control decks, because I really love when the games take a bit more planning than "slam face!". What I'm using now is mostly Highlnader Mage, but genuinely I always lose to 2 decks - Gibberling Druid and Face Rogue (the new one with Wolfrider). It's slightly different with Priest, because while playing HL Priest I have much more access to Healing and Breath of the Infinite does the job as a great early board control tool. Mage relies much more on the mid game and with the new ultra aggressive decks, games end by turn 3. It's not something bad, it's just how the game is, but HL Mage may be a bit worse than before, even wih the new tools. If you really want to deal with Aggro, I supose HL Priest is the way to go.
priest is number 7 on HS replay with a combined win rate of 48.4%. It's nowhere near being a top class. Before the xpansion I played rogue with a 14-3 record vs priest alone.
The front page of hsreplay is not a reliable resource.
Check vS.
Also why would your pre expansion record against priest mean anything now?
Stats aside I've always had a positive win rate vs priest. I mean that priest as a class didn't get in any way stronger in this expansion. At least I didn't see it in my games. Don't get me wrong I like playing control more than aggro but I would say I'm a tempo/combo player the most.
I just wouldn't agree that Priest is top class at the moment.
For me control has always been the best playstyle - I don't like running out of cards with an aggro deck and then just realise there is nothing to do while playing combo just seems a tat too boring to me.
I think control is really strong when you don't start with a bad hand against aggro or when you have tech options for combo metas. I even like the long mirror matches (mostly in the old days) where you knew the opponents deck and when to play certain cards like Entomb.
imo Control should probly be a tad stronger against aggro in general, but I personally never want Control to reach the power level where a game vs. Aggro is an auto-win. Same for Aggro vs. Combo and Combo vs. Control. At the end of the day, the player's skill should be the determining factor of who wins a game, not what decks they chose to use.
So I guess then the question is how much of an advantage should having the better deck in a matchup give you. If the skill of both players is equal, should the control player be 55% favoured to win against aggro? 60%? 75%? 90%? I'm not sure, though my gut is somewhere around 60-70%, but that would mean you still lose 3-4 out of every 10 games (which eventually adds up to quite a few games).
Maybe 65%. But, I would like to have access to tech cards to push that higher if I want. Something like consecrated evil would be nice. Just as an option. (I never thought consecrated evil was a great card myself. Just good meta call)
You are absolutely correct, control is not favored against aggro anymore. Not enough anyway.
Aggro tools slowly but surely powercreeped far beyond the reach of typical control tools. They literally had to revamp a class and buff all its control tools to keep it remotely viable and even then, priest now tried to build tempo decks, because it's just more rewarding.
With their current design philosophy, they'll eventually have to buff Holy Nova all the way down to 1 mana to keep the balance between aggro and control. And look, even a 1 mana Holy Nova, which is absurd to think about... Is not really a game winning broken insane card, it's just a good AoE that will give you a single turn before the aggro starts filling the board again. Now think about a good aggro card and reduce its cost. See how any mana cristal dramatically changes the powerlevel of aggro tools compared to control tools? 4 mana Holy Nova? Meh, ok, card is better I guess. 4 mana Warglaives of Azzinoth? Game instantly broken. 4 mana Blessing of Authority? Game instantly broken. There is an obvious design flaw with control cards, they cost way more than they should to force the game to be aggro driven and have average games of 5-10 minutes.
Cards that used to win instantly against aggro are now borderline unplayable (like brawl) due to the amount of threats and board refills aggro decks can generate in a matter of seconds with cards that didn't originate from their deck.
Not to mention all the random generation in this game also heavily favors proactive play. It's way easier to throw random cards on the board than controlling a random board with random cards.
Also, most decks are actual combo decks now. The synergy between cards is so strong that any 2 or 3 cards combo can dramatically impact the game and most decks have tons of combos like that. The control player, as a reactive player, cannot deal with that without counting on luck.
The only way to win against aggro as a control player in 2020, is simple. You need perfect curve and cards with higher powerlevel than your opponent's cards, or tech cards + lucky matchup. And that is ridiculous, because control decks are not built to curve well, don't have room for tech cards and control cards are weak as F.
Also worth mentioning that mana cheating is the strongest mechanic in this game by far, has always been and always will be, and 99% of mana cheating cards are proactive. It's time for us to be able to cheat Plague of Death for 0 mana on turn 3 as well, while generating more plague of death with RNG.
All classes should have multiple Plague of Death type card anyway. Actually, all removals should have a silence effect. Deathrattle and stuff like that should never trigger from overcosted, dead card in hand that needs planning, removal type of cards. Aka 100% of removals.
And last but not least, it's way easier to climb ladder and farm gold as an aggro player.
Game is actually broken, it has not been worth playing control for years. Best you can do is aggro with big cards, namely "midrange decks", they are a good compromise and have a chance against any type of deck, and they look like control, because you make reactive actions with bigger cards, except you do that with good minions and spells instead of stupid removals. Like tempo guardian druid or big hunter.
Pure pally is a tempo deck deck. It aims to play multiple buff cards per turn to build a big board and end the game before plague of death can be played. Libram of justice and consecration does make it a control deck.
Pure pally is a tempo deck deck. It aims to play multiple buff cards per turn to build a big board and end the game before plague of death can be played. Libram of justice and consecration does make it a control deck.
Are t4/5 wins considered tempo now? Sorry, I'm falling behind in the conversation.
So libram is Tempo/control/agro depending on your Mulligan?
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I have often heard that balance is a 3 legged stool. With contol>aggro>combo>control.
So i often opt for control decks. When I face up against a combo deck and lose, i dont feel that bad, because i expected that matchup to be highly unfavored. And on the flip side i expect to be highly favored when facing aggro decks.
But i dont feel like im all that favored vs. Aggro. Maybe my deck is built wrong. Maybe i am just a bad player. But to me it feels like i lack the correct tools to deal with aggro. No tar creeper, or duskbreaker, or even mass hysteria. I have several tools that deal 2 damage and that is pretty good vs. Demon Hunter, but most of the other aggro decks are quickly passing that 2 health breakpoint and leaving me helpless.
I guess i could shut up and play warlock. They probably have the tools to play control. But my "control" priest feels pretty toothless in the aggro matchup. Heck, even demon hunter is something of a 50/50 proposition.
So, do you agree? Has control's toolbox become too empty to be highly favored vs. Aggro?
Galavant Animation
Priest is one of the best decks on ladder right now.
Big Warrior and Highlander Mage are also T2 decks.
Control is a doubled edged sword since aggro cards are some of the most efficient cards for stats vs mana in the game. My Reno priest is heavily built to beat aggro, but that unfortunately means I almost always lose against other control decks.
But with that said I think the game lacks a real punish for decks that throw up their hands in the first few turns. In fact more cards are getting made to reward this method of play in cheap efficient card draw. We need more cards that look at board size and do something like 7 mana 4/4 Costs 1 less for each minion in play. Battlecry: deal 4 damage to all other minions.
I’m doing ok with control priest, but I agree, control is a bit weak right now compared to last year. We may get some more control tools next expansion though, but the loss of mass hysteria without a replacement hurts. Breath of the infinite and holy nova are ok at clearing small boards, but priest is missing a mid cost clear in between breath of the infinite and plague of death. Dragonfire potion, duskbreaker, mass hysteria, psychic scream, excavated evil... all these would work and are currently missing in a control package.
control was more powerful for sure because aggro became WAAY more powerfull with this expansion.
Aggro DH, Aggro Hunter & Stealth Rogue are pretty tough to beat even with tons of heal and removal.
imho the cars draw makes the difference, this 1/3 draw 3 cards is MVP and ofc rogue with broken 1 mana spell draw 5 cards
100% agree. Card draw is the culprit. Over the top hand refill and value in agro is why this is happening.
It's my opinion that Skull of Guldan was the and still is the worse offender in DH decks, and Blizzard refuses to address it. Consistency is key and agro decks depend on it most, if they can draw their entire deck by t10 they will find the answer everytime.
Control was dead last expansion too, tempo, with RNG and unlimited value pretty much killed it.
Control is fine right now, not as good as aggro or Control Warrior of last year.
In general, off the three legs, control has always been the weakest one. Control decks can lose to aggro deck very often but Combo decks rarely lose to control decks and it is a toss-up between aggro and combo on who will be stronger in the meta.
priest is number 7 on HS replay with a combined win rate of 48.4%. It's nowhere near being a top class. Before the xpansion I played rogue with a 14-3 record vs priest alone.
The front page of hsreplay is not a reliable resource.
Check vS.
Also why would your pre expansion record against priest mean anything now?
Basically it depends heavily on early board control. I play only control decks, because I really love when the games take a bit more planning than "slam face!". What I'm using now is mostly Highlnader Mage, but genuinely I always lose to 2 decks - Gibberling Druid and Face Rogue (the new one with Wolfrider). It's slightly different with Priest, because while playing HL Priest I have much more access to Healing and Breath of the Infinite does the job as a great early board control tool. Mage relies much more on the mid game and with the new ultra aggressive decks, games end by turn 3. It's not something bad, it's just how the game is, but HL Mage may be a bit worse than before, even wih the new tools. If you really want to deal with Aggro, I supose HL Priest is the way to go.
Stats aside I've always had a positive win rate vs priest. I mean that priest as a class didn't get in any way stronger in this expansion. At least I didn't see it in my games. Don't get me wrong I like playing control more than aggro but I would say I'm a tempo/combo player the most.
I just wouldn't agree that Priest is top class at the moment.
No. You brought up stats. And the stats actually say that Highlander Priest is a T1 deck.
tempostorm meta snapshot is putting priest as T2 and so do I.
Metabomb puts priest in T3.
As for stats it is different on every site. For ME I would agree with Tempostorm analysis and put the deck at around tier 2.
Everyone has different opinions, different stats and results. My stats and results would put the deck at around tier 2.
For me control has always been the best playstyle - I don't like running out of cards with an aggro deck and then just realise there is nothing to do while playing combo just seems a tat too boring to me.
I think control is really strong when you don't start with a bad hand against aggro or when you have tech options for combo metas. I even like the long mirror matches (mostly in the old days) where you knew the opponents deck and when to play certain cards like Entomb.
imo Control should probly be a tad stronger against aggro in general, but I personally never want Control to reach the power level where a game vs. Aggro is an auto-win. Same for Aggro vs. Combo and Combo vs. Control. At the end of the day, the player's skill should be the determining factor of who wins a game, not what decks they chose to use.
So I guess then the question is how much of an advantage should having the better deck in a matchup give you. If the skill of both players is equal, should the control player be 55% favoured to win against aggro? 60%? 75%? 90%? I'm not sure, though my gut is somewhere around 60-70%, but that would mean you still lose 3-4 out of every 10 games (which eventually adds up to quite a few games).
Maybe 65%. But, I would like to have access to tech cards to push that higher if I want. Something like consecrated evil would be nice. Just as an option. (I never thought consecrated evil was a great card myself. Just good meta call)
Galavant Animation
You are absolutely correct, control is not favored against aggro anymore. Not enough anyway.
Aggro tools slowly but surely powercreeped far beyond the reach of typical control tools. They literally had to revamp a class and buff all its control tools to keep it remotely viable and even then, priest now tried to build tempo decks, because it's just more rewarding.
With their current design philosophy, they'll eventually have to buff Holy Nova all the way down to 1 mana to keep the balance between aggro and control. And look, even a 1 mana Holy Nova, which is absurd to think about... Is not really a game winning broken insane card, it's just a good AoE that will give you a single turn before the aggro starts filling the board again. Now think about a good aggro card and reduce its cost. See how any mana cristal dramatically changes the powerlevel of aggro tools compared to control tools? 4 mana Holy Nova? Meh, ok, card is better I guess. 4 mana Warglaives of Azzinoth? Game instantly broken. 4 mana Blessing of Authority? Game instantly broken. There is an obvious design flaw with control cards, they cost way more than they should to force the game to be aggro driven and have average games of 5-10 minutes.
Cards that used to win instantly against aggro are now borderline unplayable (like brawl) due to the amount of threats and board refills aggro decks can generate in a matter of seconds with cards that didn't originate from their deck.
Not to mention all the random generation in this game also heavily favors proactive play. It's way easier to throw random cards on the board than controlling a random board with random cards.
Also, most decks are actual combo decks now. The synergy between cards is so strong that any 2 or 3 cards combo can dramatically impact the game and most decks have tons of combos like that. The control player, as a reactive player, cannot deal with that without counting on luck.
The only way to win against aggro as a control player in 2020, is simple. You need perfect curve and cards with higher powerlevel than your opponent's cards, or tech cards + lucky matchup. And that is ridiculous, because control decks are not built to curve well, don't have room for tech cards and control cards are weak as F.
Also worth mentioning that mana cheating is the strongest mechanic in this game by far, has always been and always will be, and 99% of mana cheating cards are proactive. It's time for us to be able to cheat Plague of Death for 0 mana on turn 3 as well, while generating more plague of death with RNG.
All classes should have multiple Plague of Death type card anyway. Actually, all removals should have a silence effect. Deathrattle and stuff like that should never trigger from overcosted, dead card in hand that needs planning, removal type of cards. Aka 100% of removals.
And last but not least, it's way easier to climb ladder and farm gold as an aggro player.
Game is actually broken, it has not been worth playing control for years. Best you can do is aggro with big cards, namely "midrange decks", they are a good compromise and have a chance against any type of deck, and they look like control, because you make reactive actions with bigger cards, except you do that with good minions and spells instead of stupid removals. Like tempo guardian druid or big hunter.
the number 1 deck is not aggro so i dont know what you talking about its mid/control paladin
Pure pally is a tempo deck deck. It aims to play multiple buff cards per turn to build a big board and end the game before plague of death can be played. Libram of justice and consecration does make it a control deck.
Are t4/5 wins considered tempo now? Sorry, I'm falling behind in the conversation.
So libram is Tempo/control/agro depending on your Mulligan?