I said in my first reply that Kael'thas not having a "once per turn" clause is very concerning, cuz then the payoff can get out of control too easily. It would be fine if you could only cheat big spells once per turn, no problem with the effect itself.
1) someone mentioned Hookstusk as a mana cheating card. That card is fucking shit and has very limited options with a tribe of mostle cheap minions. Doesnt compare to any of this dumbfuck ysera, mountseller, guardians, fittest garbage at all. It's also a turn eight play. Nzoth, phaoris etc superior in so many way.
2)The problem isnt so much mountseller but blizzard being idiots adding more 0 cost cards. It's doesnt matter what it is, if you can do something for 0 mana its fucking broken. Back to the whiteboard! A turn 10 mountseller with 3 beast is ok. Turn 7(possibly 3) mountseller with full board of rng minions(3 drop beast have been buffed this expansion as well..there really isnt any bad hits) is just stupid.
3)Any special release card is gonna be busted. Vargoth, Kaelthus, even that demon 9 drop is ridiculous but harder to use outside druid cheating.
I dont mind a deck having powerful tempo swings/mana cheating as long as it takes thought to play..
Can you give an example? Because somehow nothing comes to my mind.
Star Aligner(not druid) and linecracker combos are only thing that come to mind. Anything druid does is just fucking stupid because thats how they have consistently designed the class. Aviana and the likewise card for spells is as trash card design as you can get.
I said in my first reply that Kael'thas not having a "once per turn" clause is very concerning, cuz then the payoff can get out of control too easily. It would be fine if you could only cheat big spells once per turn, no problem with the effect itself.
What's funny is EVEN with once per turn, its still busted af. Casting a 10 cost spell for 0 is bad.
What's funny is EVEN with once per turn, its still busted af. Casting a 10 cost spell for 0 is bad.
That change makes one hell of a difference. Cheating only one big spell is great but fine, mage does it all the time (Dragoncaster, Kalecgos etc), but Kael' Thas can go full miracle on your ass with big spells like an Auctioneer on steroids, GA into Overflow into SotF... Kael'Thas being able to chain off spells that draw a lot of cards indefinetely is quite retarded, huge oversight on Team 5's part.
Posters here are using mana cheating wrong. Ramp is not mana cheating, it is playing a 4 cost do nothing so you can play bigger cards sooner. All classes do not cheat mana. What you are describing with cards like Guardian Animals is not mana cheating it is value. You play a card for 7 mana to draw and play 2 cards 5 or less. You may get more than 7 in stats, you may not, but it is not mana cheating. It is a powerful card with high value.
There is one culprit that is mana cheating and it is completely unnecessary. Kael'thas Sunstrider is a prime example of mana cheating as you are playing a card for free, way earlier than you could afford it, even with ramping. The whole deck centers around playing Survival of the Fittest before your opponent has an answer to the 10 cost spell before you cheat it out for zero mana. This is the same problem with other mana cheating that HS has had in the past, such as big priest with Barnes and yshaarj or skull of the manari.
This expansion also saw a huge amount of overpowered cards in terms of value too, hence the paladin builds. My only suggestion is to think about what counters these strategies and build decks around them. I homebrewed a priest deck with an obscene amount of silence and targeted removal and I can run paladins and druids into the ground. Spell damage mage wrecks me, but I encounter them every fifth match at most. That’s the nature of HS, it’s not playing the best decks, the real game is predicting what decks you will face most often and playing a deck that beats them.
1) someone mentioned Hookstusk as a mana cheating card. That card is fucking shit and has very limited options with a tribe of mostle cheap minions. Doesnt compare to any of this dumbfuck ysera, mountseller, guardians, fittest garbage at all. It's also a turn eight play. Nzoth, phaoris etc superior in so many way.
First, someone has a name (Sherman1986). And second, what are you talking about, dude? I just used her summon quote to make a joke, that's all. I never said absolutely nothing about Captain Hooktusk being a mana cheating card, only that she should have been a druid character 'cause she likes cheating and not playing fair (that was the joke, I know she is a pirate and fits the rogue class much better).
Posters here are using mana cheating wrong. Ramp is not mana cheating, it is playing a 4 cost do nothing so you can play bigger cards sooner. All classes do not cheat mana. What you are describing with cards like Guardian Animals is not mana cheating it is value. You play a card for 7 mana to draw and play 2 cards 5 or less. You may get more than 7 in stats, you may not, but it is not mana cheating. It is a powerful card with high value.
There is one culprit that is mana cheating and it is completely unnecessary. Kael'thas Sunstrider is a prime example of mana cheating as you are playing a card for free, way earlier than you could afford it, even with ramping. The whole deck centers around playing Survival of the Fittest before your opponent has an answer to the 10 cost spell before you cheat it out for zero mana. This is the same problem with other mana cheating that HS has had in the past, such as big priest with Barnes and yshaarj or skull of the manari.
This expansion also saw a huge amount of overpowered cards in terms of value too, hence the paladin builds. My only suggestion is to think about what counters these strategies and build decks around them. I homebrewed a priest deck with an obscene amount of silence and targeted removal and I can run paladins and druids into the ground. Spell damage mage wrecks me, but I encounter them every fifth match at most. That’s the nature of HS, it’s not playing the best decks, the real game is predicting what decks you will face most often and playing a deck that beats them.
The definition ppl are using for mana cheating here is "any card that allows you to get any benefit for much less than what it should normally cost", aka extreme amounts of value, thats not a wrong statement in my book. GA puts two 5 mana beasts on the board (10 mana), with Rush (01 mana), drawing 2 cards (03 mana, 07 mana if one of the beasts is Twilight Runner cuz it draws another 2, basically a Sprint), thats 14+ worth of mana for a 7 mana card.. if you dont consider that mana cheating, I dont know what to tell you.
GA would be fine if it only gave you high value, but its also high tempo, very easy to swing the board by itself when played on turns 4-5.
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
Stop, you're making sense. Didn't you know that this is a "Boo hoo, I'm losing to a deck I don't like. Nerf it!" thread?
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
Stop, you're making sense. Didn't you know that this is a "Boo hoo, I'm losing to a deck I don't like. Nerf it!" thread?
Seems more like a 'a game I care about is being turned into a mess that only people who lick windows and eat crayons can enjoy' thread to me.
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
Stop, you're making sense. Didn't you know that this is a "Boo hoo, I'm losing to a deck I don't like. Nerf it!" thread?
Seems more like a 'a game I care about is being turned into a mess that only people who lick windows and eat crayons can enjoy' thread to me.
Or, an "I don't know how to play a deck with an actual positive win rate against druid because I keep sticking my tongue into the electrical outlet" type thread.
If you want to keep exchanging insults, trust me, I'm better at it than you. But the simple fact is there are ways of improving your win rate against druid, but people are too lazy to use them. Instead they're misusing the term "mana cheating," misrepresenting how often druid gets the insane power turn everyone knows exists, and whining for a nerf WAY before it's clear it's even needed. At some point, when the meta settles down or when Blizzard is actually able to confirm the nature of the problem, a nerf might be needed. But as of now, it's just a cry-baby rant.
What's funny is EVEN with once per turn, its still busted af. Casting a 10 cost spell for 0 is bad.
That change makes one hell of a difference. Cheating only one big spell is great but fine, mage does it all the time (Dragoncaster, Kalecgos etc), but Kael' Thas can go full miracle on your ass with big spells like an Auctioneer on steroids, GA into Overflow into SotF... Kael'Thas being able to chain off spells that draw a lot of cards indefinetely is quite ********, huge oversight on Team 5's part.
"full miracle on your ass" made me lol
I dont think it's an oversight. There's too much supporting what was already broken. With Ysera, Kael, mountseller, and guardians there is just way too many ways for druid to get a easy win. A lot of decks will have some sort of "dream hand" in mind, but with druid there's just so many ways to get a giant board of free minions. SotF doesn't even make sense to add to a class that already has dumbass ferocious roar.
I think Waxdread is good card. Doesnt have taunt but has value. Rogue's Shadow cost 4 mana and doesnt do anything instantly and only adds like 3 copies in your deck. Ysera unleashed is like fuck you, I'm gonna summon half my portals on the next turn. Get rekt. 60% druid cards ive seen in last 2-3 expansion seems just stupid to me especially. One thing I do think is kind of funny, it's the one class where every epic/legendary is actually strong. Unfortunately too strong.
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
Stop, you're making sense. Didn't you know that this is a "Boo hoo, I'm losing to a deck I don't like. Nerf it!" thread?
Seems more like a 'a game I care about is being turned into a mess that only people who lick windows and eat crayons can enjoy' thread to me.
Or, an "I don't know how to play a deck with an actual positive win rate against druid because I keep sticking my tongue into the electrical outlet" type thread.
If you want to keep exchanging insults, trust me, I'm better at it than you. But the simple fact is there are ways of improving your win rate against druid, but people are too lazy to use them. Instead they're misusing the term "mana cheating," misrepresenting how often druid gets the insane power turn everyone knows exists, and whining for a nerf WAY before it's clear it's even needed. At some point, when the meta settles down or when Blizzard is actually able to confirm the nature of the problem, a nerf might be needed. But as of now, it's just a cry-baby rant.
People's issue is less that a deck cannot be beaten, its a deck that can't be beaten with what they WANT to play with. So many people just want the game to cater them as an individual.
Weird because they seem to be the same people who cry about early streaming because it 'ruins the experimenting phase', which is exactly what this is. Some busted things pop out and people then start to counter them. Things are going to seem way, way over powered when you have no idea what to expect or play around. Once those beasts start coming down regularly people will start to tech against it to counter it. If a couple of weeks go by and there's no counter in sight then that's when nerfs should be considered.
I seem to recall bomb warrior starting off by smashing so many things and then fairly quickly fading away. I coukd be wrong but I can't really be bothered to really go through the examples because these people don't want to be reasoned with, they just want to have their cry and be validated by Internet strangers.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I said in my first reply that Kael'thas not having a "once per turn" clause is very concerning, cuz then the payoff can get out of control too easily. It would be fine if you could only cheat big spells once per turn, no problem with the effect itself.
1) someone mentioned Hookstusk as a mana cheating card. That card is fucking shit and has very limited options with a tribe of mostle cheap minions. Doesnt compare to any of this dumbfuck ysera, mountseller, guardians, fittest garbage at all. It's also a turn eight play. Nzoth, phaoris etc superior in so many way.
2)The problem isnt so much mountseller but blizzard being idiots adding more 0 cost cards. It's doesnt matter what it is, if you can do something for 0 mana its fucking broken. Back to the whiteboard! A turn 10 mountseller with 3 beast is ok. Turn 7(possibly 3) mountseller with full board of rng minions(3 drop beast have been buffed this expansion as well..there really isnt any bad hits) is just stupid.
3)Any special release card is gonna be busted. Vargoth, Kaelthus, even that demon 9 drop is ridiculous but harder to use outside druid cheating.
Star Aligner(not druid) and linecracker combos are only thing that come to mind. Anything druid does is just fucking stupid because thats how they have consistently designed the class. Aviana and the likewise card for spells is as trash card design as you can get.
Fun > Meta
What's funny is EVEN with once per turn, its still busted af. Casting a 10 cost spell for 0 is bad.
Fun > Meta
Solid post/argument. I'm sure you have done the research and have the stats to back up your statement?
"The world outside is so big, but it's safe in my domain
Because to you I'm just a number and a clever screen name..."
I THINK FOR MYSELF, THEREFORE.... I'M AN ATHEIST !!!
That change makes one hell of a difference. Cheating only one big spell is great but fine, mage does it all the time (Dragoncaster, Kalecgos etc), but Kael' Thas can go full miracle on your ass with big spells like an Auctioneer on steroids, GA into Overflow into SotF... Kael'Thas being able to chain off spells that draw a lot of cards indefinetely is quite retarded, huge oversight on Team 5's part.
Posters here are using mana cheating wrong. Ramp is not mana cheating, it is playing a 4 cost do nothing so you can play bigger cards sooner. All classes do not cheat mana. What you are describing with cards like Guardian Animals is not mana cheating it is value. You play a card for 7 mana to draw and play 2 cards 5 or less. You may get more than 7 in stats, you may not, but it is not mana cheating. It is a powerful card with high value.
There is one culprit that is mana cheating and it is completely unnecessary. Kael'thas Sunstrider is a prime example of mana cheating as you are playing a card for free, way earlier than you could afford it, even with ramping. The whole deck centers around playing Survival of the Fittest before your opponent has an answer to the 10 cost spell before you cheat it out for zero mana. This is the same problem with other mana cheating that HS has had in the past, such as big priest with Barnes and yshaarj or skull of the manari.
This expansion also saw a huge amount of overpowered cards in terms of value too, hence the paladin builds. My only suggestion is to think about what counters these strategies and build decks around them. I homebrewed a priest deck with an obscene amount of silence and targeted removal and I can run paladins and druids into the ground. Spell damage mage wrecks me, but I encounter them every fifth match at most. That’s the nature of HS, it’s not playing the best decks, the real game is predicting what decks you will face most often and playing a deck that beats them.
First, someone has a name (Sherman1986). And second, what are you talking about, dude? I just used her summon quote to make a joke, that's all. I never said absolutely nothing about Captain Hooktusk being a mana cheating card, only that she should have been a druid character 'cause she likes cheating and not playing fair (that was the joke, I know she is a pirate and fits the rogue class much better).
Calm down.
Best Meta so far, stop crying
The definition ppl are using for mana cheating here is "any card that allows you to get any benefit for much less than what it should normally cost", aka extreme amounts of value, thats not a wrong statement in my book. GA puts two 5 mana beasts on the board (10 mana), with Rush (01 mana), drawing 2 cards (03 mana, 07 mana if one of the beasts is Twilight Runner cuz it draws another 2, basically a Sprint), thats 14+ worth of mana for a 7 mana card.. if you dont consider that mana cheating, I dont know what to tell you.
GA would be fine if it only gave you high value, but its also high tempo, very easy to swing the board by itself when played on turns 4-5.
I think its busted and will be Patched for sure , Kinda Curious how you Guys would Change these Cards so it would be Viable to still Playing it .
The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
Why did Blizzard even release a card like Ysiel when Kael is better in almost every way for Druid?
Stop, you're making sense. Didn't you know that this is a "Boo hoo, I'm losing to a deck I don't like. Nerf it!" thread?
Seems more like a 'a game I care about is being turned into a mess that only people who lick windows and eat crayons can enjoy' thread to me.
1) Any card can be discounted to 1 mana minimum (yes, I want moooore dust)
2) GA - remove rush
3) Kael - every 3rd spell costs life instead of mana
Or, an "I don't know how to play a deck with an actual positive win rate against druid because I keep sticking my tongue into the electrical outlet" type thread.
If you want to keep exchanging insults, trust me, I'm better at it than you. But the simple fact is there are ways of improving your win rate against druid, but people are too lazy to use them. Instead they're misusing the term "mana cheating," misrepresenting how often druid gets the insane power turn everyone knows exists, and whining for a nerf WAY before it's clear it's even needed. At some point, when the meta settles down or when Blizzard is actually able to confirm the nature of the problem, a nerf might be needed. But as of now, it's just a cry-baby rant.
No you're not.
"full miracle on your ass" made me lol
I dont think it's an oversight. There's too much supporting what was already broken. With Ysera, Kael, mountseller, and guardians there is just way too many ways for druid to get a easy win. A lot of decks will have some sort of "dream hand" in mind, but with druid there's just so many ways to get a giant board of free minions. SotF doesn't even make sense to add to a class that already has dumbass ferocious roar.
I think Waxdread is good card. Doesnt have taunt but has value. Rogue's Shadow cost 4 mana and doesnt do anything instantly and only adds like 3 copies in your deck. Ysera unleashed is like fuck you, I'm gonna summon half my portals on the next turn. Get rekt. 60% druid cards ive seen in last 2-3 expansion seems just stupid to me especially. One thing I do think is kind of funny, it's the one class where every epic/legendary is actually strong. Unfortunately too strong.
Fun > Meta
Am too. (Given the fact that you're crying like a baby, I thought this response would make you feel right at home.)
Let me know when you actually want to discuss facts. Otherwise, you're not worth my time. Now go tell your mommy on me.
People's issue is less that a deck cannot be beaten, its a deck that can't be beaten with what they WANT to play with. So many people just want the game to cater them as an individual.
Weird because they seem to be the same people who cry about early streaming because it 'ruins the experimenting phase', which is exactly what this is. Some busted things pop out and people then start to counter them. Things are going to seem way, way over powered when you have no idea what to expect or play around. Once those beasts start coming down regularly people will start to tech against it to counter it. If a couple of weeks go by and there's no counter in sight then that's when nerfs should be considered.
I seem to recall bomb warrior starting off by smashing so many things and then fairly quickly fading away. I coukd be wrong but I can't really be bothered to really go through the examples because these people don't want to be reasoned with, they just want to have their cry and be validated by Internet strangers.