I disagree. Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck. Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck.
Almost every priest card has reasonable stat or a reasonable effect for it's cost. And the bulk of decks that use those discover or randomly generated effects are midrange or control decks anyway. And that's also pretty much priest's win condition. Control the board, generate more resources than your opponent can deal with. There's nothing really bad to generate. You're not mad to get cheap cards like Breath of the Infinite or Smite or Penance because it clears your hand to generate more cards, board clears like Soul Mirror, Shadow Word: Ruin and Plague of Death are all good for resets and you're not mad to get expensive card generators like Skeletal Drake because it generates powerful cards. And then there's like Natalie Seline and Mind Control which are just insanely good cards for taking the board. And pretty much any priest minion in general is good because it just lets you put good stats onto the board. Few priest minions are understated, and the ones that are have such generally good effects that are easy to activate (like Brittlebone Destroyer).
Not every deck and class has to be a cycle class that cycles through to get to it's strategy IMO. I really like the variety of Galakrond Priest and having to think on my feet on which cards are best to play and how best to play out my hand.
I don't think it's very good against how much powerful tempo Druid has right now, though.
Just focusing on spells, you've picked only the good cards and even those can be situation dependent. What about Grave ruin, mind games, unsleeping soul, holy ripple, radiance, healing circle, Lazul's scheme, whispers of evil, power word shield, inner fire - cards that are chosed to feature in nearly no priest decks other than those designed with these cards specificlly in mind.
I agree with your last point tho - not every deck should be a cylcle class which just burns through their deck. They should, imo, all have access to some card draw though and card draw should always be a cost/benefit decision (which it really isn't at the moment for many of the decks).
Card draw is totally not imbalance. Card draw, is mainly related to class mobility in Warcraft. If you see, the better card draws are owned by Demon Hunter, Rogue and Druid (see feral). These are indeed the best 3 classes in Warcraft for mobility. Sometimes card draw is also totally referred to this, Sprint for example. So the developers wanted to add a flavour in the game remembering class mobility. When you are drawing cards, it seems like when you are boosting your speed. The worst card draw are owned by classes that are indeed stones in class mobility, see priest, paladin and shaman.
So, card draw is not imbalance is part of class identity. Like classes have not singol target removal, heal, taunts or mass removals, others have no card draw. Class identity man, I don't think that this will change. Priest, Pala and Shaman will always have the worst card draws.
Hunter by the way, is good in class mobility but not so good in card draw, so I think that in time he will receive more card draws, I am pretty sure that one day he will receive a card called "disengage" in order to draw. Mage probably will receive one day "Blink" in order to draw. It is part of these classes flavour.
Just focusing on spells, you've picked only the good cards and even those can be situation dependent. What about Grave ruin, mind games, unsleeping soul, holy ripple, radiance, healing circle, Lazul's scheme, whispers of evil, power word shield, inner fire - cards that are chosed to feature in nearly no priest decks other than those designed with these cards specificlly in mind.
The spell pool is less important than the minion pool, and the point of discover (when we're discussing renew at least) is having a chance of dodging worse hits you don't want. And Lazul's Scheme, Grave Rune, Inner Fire and Power Word: Shield are all FANTASTIC hits off of Sethekk Veilweaver because you can just play them cycle them for something else. Grave Rune is just a good card too. Lazul's Scheme, Radiance and Whispers of Evil are fine cards and they're cheap, so you can cycle them out for better cards easily enough because priest has A LOT of card generation.
Unsleeping Soul is annoying to get, Mind Games is situational but pretty decent in the current meta. And those are really the only two potentially outright bad hits. Out of 40 odd cards. That is a remarkable level of consistency.
And none of the spells I mentioned are situational unless you're facing some degenerate combo deck, but priest is pretty unfavoured vs. those anyway.
Anyway, most classes have access to some card draw or cycle. Paladin has Hand of A'dal, Priest has Cleric of Scales (which is also a tutor). Any fast deck has Voracious Reader. It's there if deck's want it.
I still disagree with you, but either way I think it's a pretty un-fun mechanic regardless as to which side you're on. If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out. Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.
I think the mechanic is fine in moderation but to rely solely on it as a psuedo draw mechanic is a poor design choice (imo).
If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out. Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.
Well, that's not correct. If you didn't get what you were looking for (healing or removal generally) you probably wouldn't have done much better off of drawing it.
People kinda whine about priest getting randomly generate removal, but there're so many removal options in the priest pool that's just... going to happen. Them getting a removal card isn't luck. It's very, very, very likely.
This isn't like burgle rogue or box where suddenly the aggro/combo class has board control tools and healing and hard removal. Priest can only generate priest cards outside of dragons.
I'll say it feels bad to play Hunter, who needs to jump through 4 or so hoops and needs well over 7 mana to actually *draw* cards and gain advantage, against Demon Hunter, who has the most efficient draw in the game right now. Watching classes with efficient card draw as Shaman is sad, as Shaman's best Card Draw Engine is in Wild and still requires your deck to be built a specific way and requires yet more hoops in game.
Class Identity involving no access to resources is bad design. From a mechanical and game feel standpoint, it's plain unwise to give some classes access to a core mechanic of a card game, while some don't get it. Cards win games. Cards are put into decks to be played. The person who plays more cards wins more often, and the person who plays fewer cards usually wins fewer games. Hunter can't actually *gain* advantage. Shaman can't either. And that's all in the basic/classic sets, and Blizzard doesn't want to change it.
If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out. Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.
Well, that's not correct. If you didn't get what you were looking for (healing or removal generally) you probably wouldn't have done much better off of drawing it.
People kinda whine about priest getting randomly generate removal, but there're so many removal options in the priest pool that's just... going to happen. Them getting a removal card isn't luck. It's very, very, very likely.
This isn't like burgle rogue or box where suddenly the aggro/combo class has board control tools and healing and hard removal. Priest can only generate priest cards outside of dragons.
Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it). While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche. Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.
I still think it feels better for both players when the answer comes from the deck - not from disover into random card into discover...
Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it). While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche. Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.
That's not really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.
I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.
Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it). While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche. Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.
That's not really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.
I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.
Dude, most of the hate Priest gets (and it gets most out of all classes) is because of card generation RNG. It's an unfun mechanic to have all the draw replaced by RNG generation, there is no other way to put it.
That's not really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.
I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.
It's true most minions don't have 4 attack, but it's also true that the shadow word pain you just generated won't do anything to the minions with attack >5 (while the shadow word death's (plural) you stuck in your deck to deal with buffed druid minions will).
As for the cards in your deck the chances are the pool is a lot smaller (you can have duplicates) but for me the most important thing is that you put them there. The focus here is on choice over randomness.
To be honest I think we're slightly talking at tangents, as I'm not saying that discover isn't a good mechanic or priests don't have good spells. More than the emphasis should always be on the cards you decided to put in your deck - for utility, for meta teching - whatever the reason, rather than the random ones you get along the way. The ability to draw those cards in a somewhat consistent way is the key to a successful deck regardless as to which class you play.
Or maybe not - maybe we just disargree. Either way good luck to ya!
Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it). While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche. Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.
That's not really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.
I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.
Dude, most of the hate Priest gets (and it gets most out of all classes) is because of card generation RNG. It's an unfun mechanic to have all the draw replaced by RNG generation, there is no other way to put it.
I literally addressed that in the post you're responding to. It might be unpopular, but it's not that fundamentally different. Sethekk Veilweaver can be a little rough (mostly just in the volume of cards he generates) but the Galakrond effects are totally balanced and rarely unfair.
Paladin just needs a classic/basic set revamp like Priest got and Shaman needs some card draw/generation other than Lackeys, Manatide Totem, and Far Sight.
The last good card draw for Shaman was Ancestral Knowledge in The Grand Tournament.
I literally addressed that in the post you're responding to. It might be unpopular, but it's not that fundamentally different. Sethekk Veilweaver can be a little rough (mostly just in the volume of cards he generates) but the Galakrond effects are totally balanced and rarely unfair.
Yes, it is the same thing, but the opponent has to play around like 60 cards instead of 30, and you can never rule out a card because the opponent might have generated it. This makes the game more stressful and less satisfying when you win. They could mitigate a lot of it by adding some draw to few classes like Priest, there is a lot of space between 0 card draw and "draw your deck in 3 turns" card draw.
while theres a diference in the draw each class has i dont think its in a bad state, besides shaman( and if shaman got too much draw we would all get bursted by the overload+spell power deck maybe) most decks feel ok, priest cant really get draw because it would be too much right now, and its not like you dont have options for draw you just would rather play something else, no class has really 0 card draw because theres draw on the neutral/classic set.
and its not like you dont have options for draw you just would rather play something else, no class has really 0 card draw because theres draw on the neutral/classic set.
Aside from Octosari, there's no draw on the neutral cards that I can think of - there's 3 or 4 cycle cards but these are generally rubbish and you would only put realy put them in a combo style deck.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Just focusing on spells, you've picked only the good cards and even those can be situation dependent. What about Grave ruin, mind games, unsleeping soul, holy ripple, radiance, healing circle, Lazul's scheme, whispers of evil, power word shield, inner fire - cards that are chosed to feature in nearly no priest decks other than those designed with these cards specificlly in mind.
I agree with your last point tho - not every deck should be a cylcle class which just burns through their deck. They should, imo, all have access to some card draw though and card draw should always be a cost/benefit decision (which it really isn't at the moment for many of the decks).
Card draw is totally not imbalance. Card draw, is mainly related to class mobility in Warcraft. If you see, the better card draws are owned by Demon Hunter, Rogue and Druid (see feral). These are indeed the best 3 classes in Warcraft for mobility. Sometimes card draw is also totally referred to this, Sprint for example. So the developers wanted to add a flavour in the game remembering class mobility. When you are drawing cards, it seems like when you are boosting your speed. The worst card draw are owned by classes that are indeed stones in class mobility, see priest, paladin and shaman.
So, card draw is not imbalance is part of class identity. Like classes have not singol target removal, heal, taunts or mass removals, others have no card draw. Class identity man, I don't think that this will change. Priest, Pala and Shaman will always have the worst card draws.
Hunter by the way, is good in class mobility but not so good in card draw, so I think that in time he will receive more card draws, I am pretty sure that one day he will receive a card called "disengage" in order to draw. Mage probably will receive one day "Blink" in order to draw. It is part of these classes flavour.
The spell pool is less important than the minion pool, and the point of discover (when we're discussing renew at least) is having a chance of dodging worse hits you don't want. And Lazul's Scheme, Grave Rune, Inner Fire and Power Word: Shield are all FANTASTIC hits off of Sethekk Veilweaver because you can just play them cycle them for something else. Grave Rune is just a good card too. Lazul's Scheme, Radiance and Whispers of Evil are fine cards and they're cheap, so you can cycle them out for better cards easily enough because priest has A LOT of card generation.
Unsleeping Soul is annoying to get, Mind Games is situational but pretty decent in the current meta. And those are really the only two potentially outright bad hits. Out of 40 odd cards. That is a remarkable level of consistency.
And none of the spells I mentioned are situational unless you're facing some degenerate combo deck, but priest is pretty unfavoured vs. those anyway.
Anyway, most classes have access to some card draw or cycle. Paladin has Hand of A'dal, Priest has Cleric of Scales (which is also a tutor). Any fast deck has Voracious Reader. It's there if deck's want it.
noo he is not a problem the ramp i smy friend dont touch that caRD
I still disagree with you, but either way I think it's a pretty un-fun mechanic regardless as to which side you're on. If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out. Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.
I think the mechanic is fine in moderation but to rely solely on it as a psuedo draw mechanic is a poor design choice (imo).
Well, that's not correct. If you didn't get what you were looking for (healing or removal generally) you probably wouldn't have done much better off of drawing it.
People kinda whine about priest getting randomly generate removal, but there're so many removal options in the priest pool that's just... going to happen. Them getting a removal card isn't luck. It's very, very, very likely.
This isn't like burgle rogue or box where suddenly the aggro/combo class has board control tools and healing and hard removal. Priest can only generate priest cards outside of dragons.
Don't worry, team 5 has hired "PRO PRAYERS" to help them, we are safe now!
i hope you are serious.
I'll say it feels bad to play Hunter, who needs to jump through 4 or so hoops and needs well over 7 mana to actually *draw* cards and gain advantage, against Demon Hunter, who has the most efficient draw in the game right now. Watching classes with efficient card draw as Shaman is sad, as Shaman's best Card Draw Engine is in Wild and still requires your deck to be built a specific way and requires yet more hoops in game.
Class Identity involving no access to resources is bad design. From a mechanical and game feel standpoint, it's plain unwise to give some classes access to a core mechanic of a card game, while some don't get it. Cards win games. Cards are put into decks to be played. The person who plays more cards wins more often, and the person who plays fewer cards usually wins fewer games. Hunter can't actually *gain* advantage. Shaman can't either. And that's all in the basic/classic sets, and Blizzard doesn't want to change it.
I'm on Team Give-Hunter-Card-Advantage
please don't bully my son
Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it). While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche. Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.
I still think it feels better for both players when the answer comes from the deck - not from disover into random card into discover...
That's not really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.
I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.
Dude, most of the hate Priest gets (and it gets most out of all classes) is because of card generation RNG. It's an unfun mechanic to have all the draw replaced by RNG generation, there is no other way to put it.
It's true most minions don't have 4 attack, but it's also true that the shadow word pain you just generated won't do anything to the minions with attack >5 (while the shadow word death's (plural) you stuck in your deck to deal with buffed druid minions will).
As for the cards in your deck the chances are the pool is a lot smaller (you can have duplicates) but for me the most important thing is that you put them there. The focus here is on choice over randomness.
To be honest I think we're slightly talking at tangents, as I'm not saying that discover isn't a good mechanic or priests don't have good spells. More than the emphasis should always be on the cards you decided to put in your deck - for utility, for meta teching - whatever the reason, rather than the random ones you get along the way. The ability to draw those cards in a somewhat consistent way is the key to a successful deck regardless as to which class you play.
Or maybe not - maybe we just disargree. Either way good luck to ya!
Nicu, lets trade Sprint with Radiance
I literally addressed that in the post you're responding to. It might be unpopular, but it's not that fundamentally different. Sethekk Veilweaver can be a little rough (mostly just in the volume of cards he generates) but the Galakrond effects are totally balanced and rarely unfair.
Paladin just needs a classic/basic set revamp like Priest got and Shaman needs some card draw/generation other than Lackeys, Manatide Totem, and Far Sight.
The last good card draw for Shaman was Ancestral Knowledge in The Grand Tournament.
This space is intentionally blank.
Deal. Healing and Combo activation? I'll take it.
This space is intentionally blank.
Yes, it is the same thing, but the opponent has to play around like 60 cards instead of 30, and you can never rule out a card because the opponent might have generated it. This makes the game more stressful and less satisfying when you win. They could mitigate a lot of it by adding some draw to few classes like Priest, there is a lot of space between 0 card draw and "draw your deck in 3 turns" card draw.
while theres a diference in the draw each class has i dont think its in a bad state, besides shaman( and if shaman got too much draw we would all get bursted by the overload+spell power deck maybe) most decks feel ok, priest cant really get draw because it would be too much right now, and its not like you dont have options for draw you just would rather play something else, no class has really 0 card draw because theres draw on the neutral/classic set.
Aside from Octosari, there's no draw on the neutral cards that I can think of - there's 3 or 4 cycle cards but these are generally rubbish and you would only put realy put them in a combo style deck.