Anyone else think its pretty stupid how unbalanced the card draw is between the classes? Rogue, druid, Demon Hunter, warlock, warrior (a bit less so) - all can power through their whole deck twice at least tiwce as quickly as the remaining classes and generaly without any real detriment to their playstyle.
It just feals really unfair to sit there hoping to draw your answer while they draw their entire deck in the same time. It's not just about resources - it's about access to the answers that you put in your deck before you start.
Given that all the cards seem to be balanced around the same genreal principles of mana cost and stats (and neutral cards by their availability to all classes definitely are), how can it be fair that some classes have access to card draw while some do not.
If it were a discussion betwen "a little" vs "a lot" that would seem OK (classes are different), but the way the classes are at the moment it's "none" vs. " a ton".
Where is the draw for priest, shaman, paladin, hunter (mage is pretty much in the middle)? I get that these classes are supposed to make up for card draw through random generation, but that's never going to be able to compete with a well designed, optimised deck list.
Hunter actually has pretty good draw right now. I've been playing quest hunter and draw has not been much of a problem. The beast and rush draws + tracking and questing adventurer are usually enough. Paladin and priest seem to be in an okay state and probably will have tier 2 and/or tier 1 decks this expansion. Shaman is struggling but that might be more because they do not have a solid win condition than because of anything else.
Hunter: has actually a lot of card draw currently compared to Hunter a rotation a go. Also Hunter cheats cards out of their decks like that beast that cheats out secrets.
Shamans: Has a ton and i mean a ton of card generation. This is also priest.
The only class that deserve card draw might be paladin.
It is also important to keep in mind that demon Hunter pretty much only draw during the game they dont have much or any card generation. This happens also with warlock
I agree. Card draw is one of the most important aspects of any card game. It shouldn't be a weakness or strength of any class. They think random generation is a fair way to compensate but it's not. I put cards in my deck with a purpose but randomly generated garbage isn't something that is going help my game plan most of the time. While some classes are able to enjoy the full potential of their synergistic decks the others can only wait and very slowly draw while trying to survive with a bunch of random junk. Also, sometimes the random generation can lead to very frustrating things happening to both sides. It's just bad and unfair.
Every class should have a way to generate resources and answers, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the same for every class.
I love that Priest just has a really consistent pool of cards but instead of cycling through their deck they just generate those consistent cards. It's something I think Paladin should endeavor to be as well. I think there's some design issues there, mostly to do with the monstrous amount of hard removal in the game presently. It's just hard to keep anything on the board long enough to close out a game.
It also makes games even longer.
Hunter I always liked the idea of them having a lot of cycle. Tracking should be the model for that. Hunter has a lot of burst and high impact cards, so it's not necessarily unfitting.
There're definitely ways to balance out card draw, but there're also problems with it. Giving druid, which has massive ramp the ability to also draw TONS of cards is one of the reason their balance is always so lopsided nowadays. Druid used to have almost no card draw so their ability to ramp was checked by that.
The problem is so acute at the moment that control decks (whatever few of them there are at the moment) don't really need a win condition. The oponent will usually hit fatigue when you still have 15 cards in your deck (if you're playing priest this is not an exageration).
Card generation is fine as a mechanic but it shouldn't be the sole way of accessing resources.
edit: - card draw also used to be a choice for deck building. How much card draw do you stick in your deck to ensure you have the resources to do your thing, knowing that the card draw card cards generally result in a loss of tempo
But it gives the classes a completely different feel. The sneaky/aggressive classes burning and cycling through their decks to get to their important resources vs. Paladin/Priest that play in a very safe, steady way. Keeping control of the board and healing themselves.
Priest could not have the card pool it has with consistent card draw or if they had stronger burn.
Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck. Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw.
Surely no game should reward randomness over planning. That's just daft...
If priest or my favorite class shaman gets a good draw engine, I think they would be too strong. Both shaman and priest have a lot of good cards to answer back already (Silence, board control, cheap removals, etc.)
Looking at that issue. Maybe if only the game were less fast and swinging than before, I don't think card draw would be too much of a problem. Though that's just what I'm feeling. So in the future, perhaps we might get a card draw when the game becomes super fast (And that might change blizzard's class identity rules.)
Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck. Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw.
Surely no game should reward randomness over planning. That's just daft...
It's not rewarding randomness. It's rewarding intuition. Galakrond Priest has a very narrow band of minions it can give you. Same with Sethekk. Priest spells only do so many things. And the current Priest class in Standard is designed that way.
Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck. Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw.
Surely no game should reward randomness over planning. That's just daft...
It's not rewarding randomness. It's rewarding intuition. Galakrond Priest has a very narrow band of minions it can give you. Same with Sethekk. Priest spells only do so many things. And the current Priest class in Standard is designed that way.
I'm not going to count the spells and minions, but if you think that the number of priest possibilities vs. the ones you put in your deck is somehow a clever mechanic that can be designe or played around - you're simply wrong. You can't plan to generate the right spell any more than you can plan to draw the next card. What you can do is choose which cards go in your deck and increase the number of cards drawn (assuming to option is given). There's also a big difference betwen cards in deck and those randomly generated. I can draw the rest of my deck and that garauntees the right card (assuming I put it in the deck). I can generate as many cards as I like and withing the constraints of a hearthstone game I might never get the card I need.
To balanace this you would assume that the priest cards would do more for their mana cost, as you're much less likely to get the card you need when you need it, but this isn't the case. How many people looked at the priest cards that were revealed and said - that's OP? I can tell you - none. Why? Because none are "objectively" OP. Factoring in the randomness of card generation would imply (to me at least) that the cards should be better than the other class equivalents. Why?- because the chances of getting them in your hand is smaller (no card draw or random generation).
It's a flawed design. Sure - you might highroll and win. Equally you might fizzle and die. There's nothing instricly fun about generating the right win condition for the circumstances - you just feel you lucked out.
On the other hand, it feels really frustrating knowing that you put the counter in your deck but have no means to draw it (and I mean that taking acount of the fact that this is a draw based card game and sometimes you just don't draw what you need).
I'm not going to count the spells and minions, but if you think that the number of priest possibilities vs. the ones you put in your deck is somehow a clever mechanic that can be designe or played around - you're simply wrong.
I'm not wrong. Priest spells do four things.
Heal, generate resources from your opponent's deck or random cards (lackeys, priest's minion pool or spell pool), or give you board advantage (either through removal or through mind control) or increase the stats of a minion on the board. Nothing priest can generate can damage the opponent without a presence on board and nothing they have generates minions on the board outside of mind control effects or copy effects. The removal might have a bit too much variety, but you can control how many resources you put into the board knowing priest has access to lots of ways to remove them. Both in their deck and from cards they've generated.
Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect the exact same way they can draw the right card from their deck. My point is, the consistency of priest discover effects is about as good as a well designed deck is. The priest minion and spell pools from year of the phoenix is THAT consistent.
By contrast, mage can... freeze things, summon minions, get secrets, draw cards, generate cards, destroy minions, burn face, gain armor, and even then, Solarion Prime is way more fair than say... Box or the Reno hero because at least their spells are limited to mage, and you know they're generally going to target your opponent's stuff. So it's at least a calculated risk, rather than Box which is just "hey let's roll some dice and see where they land and maybe I win".
Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect the exact same way they can draw the right card from their deck. My point is, the consistency of priest discover effects is about as good as a well designed deck is. The priest minion and spell pools from year of the phoenix is THAT consistent.
I disagree. Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck. Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck.
1) you know what cards are there. You put them there before you started. Most decks outisde highlanders run duplicate cards to increase consistency and there may be more than one card which in you deck which is useful. In contrast, discover pulls from the full set of spells or minions. I decided to count. There are 40 spells and 43 minions to pick from. Those odds are much lower than you would normally get from drawing cards from your deck (particularly if you're look at the "add random card" rather than discover).
2) Card draw nearly always provides more than one card. Discover is nearly always 1 card (albeit this is generated as an "extra" resource)
3) if you draw enough cards you will get the answer (assuming it's there). This is not true with discover which can continued to give you the wrong cards turn after turn. On the flip side the discover mechanic can get you answer that isn't in your deck.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the discover mechanic is bad, just that it shouldn't be the sole means of generating cards in hand. Do we really think that randomly generating things turn after turn is a good mechanic for a card game, where part of the decision making proccess should be "which cards do I put in my deck"? Going "full casino" is also unhealthy for any card game imo (but it does make some good Trolden videos....)
Hunter: has actually a lot of card draw currently compared to Hunter a rotation a go. Also Hunter cheats cards out of their decks like that beast that cheats out secrets.
Shamans: Has a ton and i mean a ton of card generation. This is also priest.
The only class that deserve card draw might be paladin.
It is also important to keep in mind that demon Hunter pretty much only draw during the game they dont have much or any card generation. This happens also with warlock
Both Rogue, Warriors and druids can do Both.
Shaman with allot of card gen? What year are you living in?
its literally 5 class cards.
Sludge slurper.
Evil totem
Underbelly angler
Instructor Fireheart
and Marhspawn which 4 out of 5 are sh*t because overload and shaman cards are just sh*t.
now what does priest have?
hmmm..
Whispers of EVil
Raise dead
disciple of galakrond
Renew
Envoy of lazul
EVil conscripter
Mindrender illucia
Thoughsteal
Sethkk veilweaver
Madame lazul
Time rip
skeletal dragon aaaand Galakrond himself thats **13** different cards! which priest can benefit because priest spells aren't complete shiet.
I disagree. Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck. Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck.
Almost every priest card has reasonable stat or a reasonable effect for it's cost. And the bulk of decks that use those discover or randomly generated effects are midrange or control decks anyway. And that's also pretty much priest's win condition. Control the board, generate more resources than your opponent can deal with. There's nothing really bad to generate. You're not mad to get cheap cards like Breath of the Infinite or Smite or Penance because it clears your hand to generate more cards, board clears like Soul Mirror, Shadow Word: Ruin and Plague of Death are all good for resets and you're not mad to get expensive card generators like Skeletal Drake because it generates powerful cards. And then there's like Natalie Seline and Mind Control which are just insanely good cards for taking the board. And pretty much any priest minion in general is good because it just lets you put good stats onto the board. Few priest minions are understated, and the ones that are have such generally good effects that are easy to activate (like Brittlebone Destroyer).
Not every deck and class has to be a cycle class that cycles through to get to it's strategy IMO. I really like the variety of Galakrond Priest and having to think on my feet on which cards are best to play and how best to play out my hand.
I don't think it's very good against how much powerful tempo Druid has right now, though.
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Anyone else think its pretty stupid how unbalanced the card draw is between the classes? Rogue, druid, Demon Hunter, warlock, warrior (a bit less so) - all can power through their whole deck twice at least tiwce as quickly as the remaining classes and generaly without any real detriment to their playstyle.
It just feals really unfair to sit there hoping to draw your answer while they draw their entire deck in the same time. It's not just about resources - it's about access to the answers that you put in your deck before you start.
Given that all the cards seem to be balanced around the same genreal principles of mana cost and stats (and neutral cards by their availability to all classes definitely are), how can it be fair that some classes have access to card draw while some do not.
If it were a discussion betwen "a little" vs "a lot" that would seem OK (classes are different), but the way the classes are at the moment it's "none" vs. " a ton".
Where is the draw for priest, shaman, paladin, hunter (mage is pretty much in the middle)? I get that these classes are supposed to make up for card draw through random generation, but that's never going to be able to compete with a well designed, optimised deck list.
Hunter actually has pretty good draw right now. I've been playing quest hunter and draw has not been much of a problem. The beast and rush draws + tracking and questing adventurer are usually enough. Paladin and priest seem to be in an okay state and probably will have tier 2 and/or tier 1 decks this expansion. Shaman is struggling but that might be more because they do not have a solid win condition than because of anything else.
I miss power word shield so bad.
Before any of the card draw disparities, Kaelthas needs to be buried either completely, or chucked to wild next rotation a year early!
:)
https://hsreplay.net/replay/27u2NJTZZJgToJ6k6n5BTM
Shaman 3 mana draw 1's are starting to make me depressed
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
they like to call it class identity probably, i call it nonsense :)
and as soon as they said they want each class to feel different, they make the same ones for multiple
glorious logic :=D
Hunter: has actually a lot of card draw currently compared to Hunter a rotation a go. Also Hunter cheats cards out of their decks like that beast that cheats out secrets.
Shamans: Has a ton and i mean a ton of card generation. This is also priest.
The only class that deserve card draw might be paladin.
It is also important to keep in mind that demon Hunter pretty much only draw during the game they dont have much or any card generation. This happens also with warlock
Both Rogue, Warriors and druids can do Both.
I agree. Card draw is one of the most important aspects of any card game. It shouldn't be a weakness or strength of any class. They think random generation is a fair way to compensate but it's not. I put cards in my deck with a purpose but randomly generated garbage isn't something that is going help my game plan most of the time. While some classes are able to enjoy the full potential of their synergistic decks the others can only wait and very slowly draw while trying to survive with a bunch of random junk. Also, sometimes the random generation can lead to very frustrating things happening to both sides. It's just bad and unfair.
As a rogue player I will be happy to trade the awful Sprint for a half decent healing or mass removal...
Every class should have a way to generate resources and answers, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the same for every class.
I love that Priest just has a really consistent pool of cards but instead of cycling through their deck they just generate those consistent cards. It's something I think Paladin should endeavor to be as well. I think there's some design issues there, mostly to do with the monstrous amount of hard removal in the game presently. It's just hard to keep anything on the board long enough to close out a game.
It also makes games even longer.
Hunter I always liked the idea of them having a lot of cycle. Tracking should be the model for that. Hunter has a lot of burst and high impact cards, so it's not necessarily unfitting.
There're definitely ways to balance out card draw, but there're also problems with it. Giving druid, which has massive ramp the ability to also draw TONS of cards is one of the reason their balance is always so lopsided nowadays. Druid used to have almost no card draw so their ability to ramp was checked by that.
The problem is so acute at the moment that control decks (whatever few of them there are at the moment) don't really need a win condition. The oponent will usually hit fatigue when you still have 15 cards in your deck (if you're playing priest this is not an exageration).
Card generation is fine as a mechanic but it shouldn't be the sole way of accessing resources.
edit: - card draw also used to be a choice for deck building. How much card draw do you stick in your deck to ensure you have the resources to do your thing, knowing that the card draw card cards generally result in a loss of tempo
But it gives the classes a completely different feel. The sneaky/aggressive classes burning and cycling through their decks to get to their important resources vs. Paladin/Priest that play in a very safe, steady way. Keeping control of the board and healing themselves.
Priest could not have the card pool it has with consistent card draw or if they had stronger burn.
Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck. Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw.
Surely no game should reward randomness over planning. That's just daft...
If priest or my favorite class shaman gets a good draw engine, I think they would be too strong. Both shaman and priest have a lot of good cards to answer back already (Silence, board control, cheap removals, etc.)
Looking at that issue. Maybe if only the game were less fast and swinging than before, I don't think card draw would be too much of a problem. Though that's just what I'm feeling. So in the future, perhaps we might get a card draw when the game becomes super fast (And that might change blizzard's class identity rules.)
I like elementals and totems.
It's not rewarding randomness. It's rewarding intuition. Galakrond Priest has a very narrow band of minions it can give you. Same with Sethekk. Priest spells only do so many things. And the current Priest class in Standard is designed that way.
I'm not going to count the spells and minions, but if you think that the number of priest possibilities vs. the ones you put in your deck is somehow a clever mechanic that can be designe or played around - you're simply wrong. You can't plan to generate the right spell any more than you can plan to draw the next card. What you can do is choose which cards go in your deck and increase the number of cards drawn (assuming to option is given). There's also a big difference betwen cards in deck and those randomly generated. I can draw the rest of my deck and that garauntees the right card (assuming I put it in the deck). I can generate as many cards as I like and withing the constraints of a hearthstone game I might never get the card I need.
To balanace this you would assume that the priest cards would do more for their mana cost, as you're much less likely to get the card you need when you need it, but this isn't the case. How many people looked at the priest cards that were revealed and said - that's OP? I can tell you - none. Why? Because none are "objectively" OP. Factoring in the randomness of card generation would imply (to me at least) that the cards should be better than the other class equivalents. Why?- because the chances of getting them in your hand is smaller (no card draw or random generation).
It's a flawed design. Sure - you might highroll and win. Equally you might fizzle and die. There's nothing instricly fun about generating the right win condition for the circumstances - you just feel you lucked out.
On the other hand, it feels really frustrating knowing that you put the counter in your deck but have no means to draw it (and I mean that taking acount of the fact that this is a draw based card game and sometimes you just don't draw what you need).
I'm not wrong. Priest spells do four things.
Heal, generate resources from your opponent's deck or random cards (lackeys, priest's minion pool or spell pool), or give you board advantage (either through removal or through mind control) or increase the stats of a minion on the board. Nothing priest can generate can damage the opponent without a presence on board and nothing they have generates minions on the board outside of mind control effects or copy effects. The removal might have a bit too much variety, but you can control how many resources you put into the board knowing priest has access to lots of ways to remove them. Both in their deck and from cards they've generated.
Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect the exact same way they can draw the right card from their deck. My point is, the consistency of priest discover effects is about as good as a well designed deck is. The priest minion and spell pools from year of the phoenix is THAT consistent.
By contrast, mage can... freeze things, summon minions, get secrets, draw cards, generate cards, destroy minions, burn face, gain armor, and even then, Solarion Prime is way more fair than say... Box or the Reno hero because at least their spells are limited to mage, and you know they're generally going to target your opponent's stuff. So it's at least a calculated risk, rather than Box which is just "hey let's roll some dice and see where they land and maybe I win".
I disagree. Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck. Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck.
1) you know what cards are there. You put them there before you started. Most decks outisde highlanders run duplicate cards to increase consistency and there may be more than one card which in you deck which is useful. In contrast, discover pulls from the full set of spells or minions. I decided to count. There are 40 spells and 43 minions to pick from. Those odds are much lower than you would normally get from drawing cards from your deck (particularly if you're look at the "add random card" rather than discover).
2) Card draw nearly always provides more than one card. Discover is nearly always 1 card (albeit this is generated as an "extra" resource)
3) if you draw enough cards you will get the answer (assuming it's there). This is not true with discover which can continued to give you the wrong cards turn after turn. On the flip side the discover mechanic can get you answer that isn't in your deck.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the discover mechanic is bad, just that it shouldn't be the sole means of generating cards in hand. Do we really think that randomly generating things turn after turn is a good mechanic for a card game, where part of the decision making proccess should be "which cards do I put in my deck"? Going "full casino" is also unhealthy for any card game imo (but it does make some good Trolden videos....)
Shaman with allot of card gen? What year are you living in?
its literally 5 class cards.
Sludge slurper.
Evil totem
Underbelly angler
Instructor Fireheart
and Marhspawn which 4 out of 5 are sh*t because overload and shaman cards are just sh*t.
now what does priest have?
hmmm..
Whispers of EVil
Raise dead
disciple of galakrond
Renew
Envoy of lazul
EVil conscripter
Mindrender illucia
Thoughsteal
Sethkk veilweaver
Madame lazul
Time rip
skeletal dragon aaaand Galakrond himself thats **13** different cards! which priest can benefit because priest spells aren't complete shiet.
Almost every priest card has reasonable stat or a reasonable effect for it's cost. And the bulk of decks that use those discover or randomly generated effects are midrange or control decks anyway. And that's also pretty much priest's win condition. Control the board, generate more resources than your opponent can deal with. There's nothing really bad to generate. You're not mad to get cheap cards like Breath of the Infinite or Smite or Penance because it clears your hand to generate more cards, board clears like Soul Mirror, Shadow Word: Ruin and Plague of Death are all good for resets and you're not mad to get expensive card generators like Skeletal Drake because it generates powerful cards. And then there's like Natalie Seline and Mind Control which are just insanely good cards for taking the board. And pretty much any priest minion in general is good because it just lets you put good stats onto the board. Few priest minions are understated, and the ones that are have such generally good effects that are easy to activate (like Brittlebone Destroyer).
Not every deck and class has to be a cycle class that cycles through to get to it's strategy IMO. I really like the variety of Galakrond Priest and having to think on my feet on which cards are best to play and how best to play out my hand.
I don't think it's very good against how much powerful tempo Druid has right now, though.