I’ve been playing some wild for fun with the return of Raza and other wild staple cards, but a concern of mine is, while grinding for fun and fighting some wild players has been seeing decks like Odd Fatigue warrior and Toggwaggle Avalina Druids just making the gameplay extremely unenjoyable. Stealing your deck or removing every threat you have while fatiguing you to death over 30 - 60 minute games.
A concern of mine though is that while Blizzard has wanted to add more and more good 10 drops into the game, the Aviana Kun combo can play all of them, up to 10 of them in a turn, for 1 mana each. while also casting ultimate infestations for 0 mana.
With new cards such as Kael’thas, a card obviously meant to be a build around requiring you to cast 3 spells in a turn to get one free, he’s just fantastically broken in so many wild decks with say things like coin and innervate and Psychmelons and ultimate infestations. These with the psychmelon gives Druid unneeded extreme draw tutoring, enabling them to draw the whole combo for 4 mana while also ramping up to 10 mana on turn 4 with cards like Mana project + Overgrowth.
They’re able to ramp up extremely quickly while drawing their entire combo. But the unfun part is, they also steal your entire deck, with a tutorable combo, on turn 4, while drawing nearly their entire deck in a few turns ramping up much faster than you’re able to kill them. The combo comes out of nowhere. Now Druids have multiple archetypes in wild from Jade to Token to Spell Druid to other Aviana combos, so them playing absolutely no cards for 4 turns followed by ramping up to 10 mana and dumping their whole hand followed by 20-40 stats worth of minions on the board, two ultimate infestations, and fatiguing themselves before tutoring every card in their deck and then stealing your deck while stealing your hand and the ransom spell with a toggwaggle + Azalina is just broken. These cards while on their own, were just obviously not ever intended to be played in the same turn together for 1-2 mana.
How it works is when you fight against the deck, The toggwaggle druid will do often nothing from Turn 1-2. Then They will cast 1-2 Biology project (+2 mana to each player. ) then use ramp cards like Overgrowth (4 mana gain 2 mana crystals). going up from 3 to 10 mana in a single turn, play a psychmelon / Spreading plague, Instantly draw combo and then Aviana Kun you with a innervate/mana project, followed by them dropping a Kael’thalas, followed by 1-2 ultimate infestations and drawing their entire deck, dumping every minion and threat, (with a occasional Jepetto Joybuzz, who can set Aviana and Kun to 1 mana and removing all threats from their deck) and then followed by 1 mana 5-20 card vomit, dropping 40/40 worth of stats on the board, depleting and giving you a fatigued threatless deck, followed by a King Toggwaggle and a Azalina Soulthief to copy your hand.
Essentially these easily tutored cards, lets this deck, for the price of a 4 mana psychmelon:
A: Take your deck away for good, stealing it with Toggwaggle and copying the Ransom spell. There is nothing you can do about this. If you play the ransom, so will they. While they have a copy of every card in your hand and steal your win condition and deck. Making the pain of entombing a Tirion look like pennies in comparison. B: Drop 20 - 40 stats worth of minions on the board. Which, if left unchecked, immediately kills you. While having no board clears to draw. C: Steal any win condition your deck has, while also winning the fatigue and mirror match. Often times, i’ve seen druids not even try to play the combos of decks. They don’t need to, 10-20 cards ahead of fatique and 20-40 stats worth of minions on board usually does it for them. Trying to kill them before the combo played is difficult. Most decks aren’t designed to kill before turn 3. And they still have ramp up to play spreading plagues and 2-3 archetypes to blend in. Typically you have no information it’s a Toggwaggle druid vs just another druid until the ramp / combo comes out, then it’s too late.
I get having op vs op decks and all. But having 40/40 of stats dropped on a turn 4 with a deck that tutors itself while stealing your deck and putting you in fatigue is just ridicolous.
There’s just no enjoyable counterplay or tech options. The deck just ramps up too quickly and has too much draw and tutoring.
They pull off the combo consistently with nearly 20/30 of their cards drawn on a turn 4 and 10 mana.
How do you fight that you may ask? You can’t really, even if you are lucky enough to have a AOE to clear the 40/40 of Aviana + Kun + Kael’thas + 2 ultimate infestations + Gepetto + King Toggwaggle + Azalina Soulthief + (Being able to play any big threat in your hand for 1 mana or stolen Renos/ Dragonqueen Alexstrazas), they ALSO stole your hand and deck too. While you’re playing a downhill game where your deck is fatigued and you can’t ever draw any cards from your deck again.
IMO Aviana or Azalina need a major rework. King toggwaggle was never meant to be a competitive card, and this deck really just highlights how rewarding a deck for drawing it’s whole entire deck and then stealing yours should be. I don’t want to completely Kill Aviana, but there really needs to be a limit on the Kun Combo.
Imo i’d want to try 10 Mana 5/5 Aviana: Your minions cost 1
-> 9 Mana 5/5 Aviana: The next 2 minions played this turn cost 1.
Juicy Psychmelon: 4 mana: Draw a 7, 8, 9, and 10 cost minion from your deck. (7: Azalina, 8: Toggwaggle, 10: Aviana/Kun)
-> Change to 8 mana.
Keep it as a powerful card, but make them spend time to get there to play it.
Ultimate infestation: 10 mana Deal 5 damage, gain 5 armor, draw 5 cards, summon a 5/5 ghoul -> 10 mana Deal 5 damage, take 5 damage, draw 5 cards and summon a 5/5 ghoul.
Imo the plan was for all these cards, to tone down on the insane tutoring and putting a cap on Aviana from being able to play every 10 mana card in the game for basically nothing while being able to steal and deplete your deck. Toggwaggle/Azalina aren’t broken on their own, but in a aviana Combo where you can play 10 minions for nothing and tutor the whole combo for 4 mana, it’s a little much. These changes would give you more time to handle the druid while making less degenerate druid decks able to still combo Aviana + Kun with 1 other card, but not deplete their whole deck and Aviana + Kun +Kaelthalas + Gepetto + 2 ultimate infestations + King Togglewaggle + Azalina soulthief + … Etc. It would still be possible for them to say Aviana + coin innervate a Toggwaggle and Azalina out to steal a deck if they wanted. But it wouldn’t come with dropping 40/40 of unlimited stats and be a more later combo to tutor with the psychmelon changes.
If you want to kill a Tier 3 deck, what should be done to Tier 1/2 decks? Wild needs frequent balance changes, yes, but this is far from being a solution imo. You just seem to hate this deck and want to see it omeganerfed
My advice to you is: play the deck yourself and you will see you won't get 100% winrate even if its ridiculous from time to time. That's also the reason some people complain about puzzlebox in a below tier1 deck. From time to time you lose, but that doesn't mean the deck is consistent.
What you describe with "they have everything by turn 4" is the ultimate highroll of a deck that will struggle to survive 5 turns against anything without Branching Paths. On average, these decks don't perform well, especially in an aggressive meta like the current one. Aviana Combos haven't been in the meta since she was nerfed, and for the time being, I don't think that will change.
And since you mentioned that you wanted to have some fun with Raza... I don't know if you play other decks too, but if you are mostly playing Reno Priest, one of the best decks in the format, you should not be complaining about some obscure combo decks. Reno Priest is nothing but reactive plays and answers until it can deal 10-20 damage from hand per turn. It is one of the least interactive decks, 0 fun to play against, and its only real weakness are dedicated combo decks.
The deck is powerful and feels oppressive when they draw the nuts. I've played all sorts of Aviana-Kun decks since MSOG and only Star Aligner Druid was over the top broken.
10 mana Aviana is a problem for the deck. The deck is terrifying when they Jepetto into Aviana but if they don't they may struggle assembling the full combo in a timely fashion. Can't tutor Innervate. Keeping/saving Innervate may lose you the game because you're down a card or you might lose too much tempo holding on to it.
If you play a slow control deck, tough rocks pal. Scissors beats paper. Just know that this deck doesn't line up well against the majority of top tier decks, and for that reason doesn't require nerfs.
The only thing I find truly busted about Druid decks is Oaken Summons into Archmage Vargoth on turn 4. I'd nerf Vargoth to 5 mana (also slight nerfs Quest Mage and Big Priest) or reduce its health to 4.
The deck was a solid tier two deck before Aviana got nerfed to 10 mana. Now you need to also run Innervates to even be able to activate the combo and the high cost tutor spell doesn't auto draw your combo anymore since there are two 10 cost cards.
That simple change reduced the consistency of this combo style to the point that it's barely a tier three deck. With any combo deck they can high roll and seem oppressive but if you actually play it then you will see that it's a struggle to maintain even a 50% win rate.
I've played about 200 games in the past two months with malygos druid with a wr of about 60-62% and I think you're making no sense. All combo druid decks (ALL of them) can be countered by putting a dirty rat in your deck. Just like that, poof, all tog druids die, all maly druids die, most armour druids die too. So your so-called problem, which according to you makes low tier 3 - high tier 4 decks too "busted", has a solution that costs 2 mana and is available to everyone. So many wild games don't even reach turn 6 that you could legitimately revert Aviana back to 9 mana and I don't know that anyone would notice it anyway.
No, seriously, what the hell are you whining about? If you play a control deck without any combo tech while consistently encountering them in your ladder pocket, it's your fault. If you play aggro, you should shut your trap by default since aggro preys with great success on all combo decks in wild. So what are you complaining about? That you lost to something that isn't odd dh, quest mage or pwar? Get a grip on yourself lad, good grief.
I’ve been playing some wild for fun with the return of Raza and other wild staple cards, but a concern of mine is, while grinding for fun and fighting some wild players has been seeing decks like Odd Fatigue warrior and Toggwaggle Avalina Druids just making the gameplay extremely unenjoyable. Stealing your deck or removing every threat you have while fatiguing you to death over 30 - 60 minute games.
A concern of mine though is that while Blizzard has wanted to add more and more good 10 drops into the game, the Aviana Kun combo can play all of them, up to 10 of them in a turn, for 1 mana each. while also casting ultimate infestations for 0 mana.
With new cards such as Kael’thas, a card obviously meant to be a build around requiring you to cast 3 spells in a turn to get one free, he’s just fantastically broken in so many wild decks with say things like coin and innervate and Psychmelons and ultimate infestations. These with the psychmelon gives Druid unneeded extreme draw tutoring, enabling them to draw the whole combo for 4 mana while also ramping up to 10 mana on turn 4 with cards like Mana project + Overgrowth.
They’re able to ramp up extremely quickly while drawing their entire combo. But the unfun part is, they also steal your entire deck, with a tutorable combo, on turn 4, while drawing nearly their entire deck in a few turns ramping up much faster than you’re able to kill them. The combo comes out of nowhere. Now Druids have multiple archetypes in wild from Jade to Token to Spell Druid to other Aviana combos, so them playing absolutely no cards for 4 turns followed by ramping up to 10 mana and dumping their whole hand followed by 20-40 stats worth of minions on the board, two ultimate infestations, and fatiguing themselves before tutoring every card in their deck and then stealing your deck while stealing your hand and the ransom spell with a toggwaggle + Azalina is just broken. These cards while on their own, were just obviously not ever intended to be played in the same turn together for 1-2 mana.
How it works is when you fight against the deck, The toggwaggle druid will do often nothing from Turn 1-2. Then They will cast 1-2 Biology project (+2 mana to each player. ) then use ramp cards like Overgrowth (4 mana gain 2 mana crystals). going up from 3 to 10 mana in a single turn, play a psychmelon / Spreading plague, Instantly draw combo and then Aviana Kun you with a innervate/mana project, followed by them dropping a Kael’thalas, followed by 1-2 ultimate infestations and drawing their entire deck, dumping every minion and threat, (with a occasional Jepetto Joybuzz, who can set Aviana and Kun to 1 mana and removing all threats from their deck) and then followed by 1 mana 5-20 card vomit, dropping 40/40 worth of stats on the board, depleting and giving you a fatigued threatless deck, followed by a King Toggwaggle and a Azalina Soulthief to copy your hand.
Essentially these easily tutored cards, lets this deck, for the price of a 4 mana psychmelon:
A: Take your deck away for good, stealing it with Toggwaggle and copying the Ransom spell. There is nothing you can do about this. If you play the ransom, so will they. While they have a copy of every card in your hand and steal your win condition and deck. Making the pain of entombing a Tirion look like pennies in comparison.
B: Drop 20 - 40 stats worth of minions on the board. Which, if left unchecked, immediately kills you. While having no board clears to draw.
C: Steal any win condition your deck has, while also winning the fatigue and mirror match. Often times, i’ve seen druids not even try to play the combos of decks. They don’t need to, 10-20 cards ahead of fatique and 20-40 stats worth of minions on board usually does it for them.
Trying to kill them before the combo played is difficult. Most decks aren’t designed to kill before turn 3. And they still have ramp up to play spreading plagues and 2-3 archetypes to blend in. Typically you have no information it’s a Toggwaggle druid vs just another druid until the ramp / combo comes out, then it’s too late.
I get having op vs op decks and all. But having 40/40 of stats dropped on a turn 4 with a deck that tutors itself while stealing your deck and putting you in fatigue is just ridicolous.
There’s just no enjoyable counterplay or tech options. The deck just ramps up too quickly and has too much draw and tutoring.
They pull off the combo consistently with nearly 20/30 of their cards drawn on a turn 4 and 10 mana.
How do you fight that you may ask? You can’t really, even if you are lucky enough to have a AOE to clear the 40/40 of Aviana + Kun + Kael’thas + 2 ultimate infestations + Gepetto + King Toggwaggle + Azalina Soulthief + (Being able to play any big threat in your hand for 1 mana or stolen Renos/ Dragonqueen Alexstrazas), they ALSO stole your hand and deck too. While you’re playing a downhill game where your deck is fatigued and you can’t ever draw any cards from your deck again.
IMO Aviana or Azalina need a major rework. King toggwaggle was never meant to be a competitive card, and this deck really just highlights how rewarding a deck for drawing it’s whole entire deck and then stealing yours should be. I don’t want to completely Kill Aviana, but there really needs to be a limit on the Kun Combo.
Imo i’d want to try
10 Mana 5/5 Aviana: Your minions cost 1
-> 9 Mana 5/5 Aviana: The next 2 minions played this turn cost 1.
Juicy Psychmelon: 4 mana: Draw a 7, 8, 9, and 10 cost minion from your deck. (7: Azalina, 8: Toggwaggle, 10: Aviana/Kun)
-> Change to 8 mana.
Keep it as a powerful card, but make them spend time to get there to play it.
Ultimate infestation: 10 mana Deal 5 damage, gain 5 armor, draw 5 cards, summon a 5/5 ghoul
-> 10 mana Deal 5 damage, take 5 damage, draw 5 cards and summon a 5/5 ghoul.
Imo the plan was for all these cards, to tone down on the insane tutoring and putting a cap on Aviana from being able to play every 10 mana card in the game for basically nothing while being able to steal and deplete your deck. Toggwaggle/Azalina aren’t broken on their own, but in a aviana Combo where you can play 10 minions for nothing and tutor the whole combo for 4 mana, it’s a little much. These changes would give you more time to handle the druid while making less degenerate druid decks able to still combo Aviana + Kun with 1 other card, but not deplete their whole deck and Aviana + Kun +Kaelthalas + Gepetto + 2 ultimate infestations + King Togglewaggle + Azalina soulthief + … Etc. It would still be possible for them to say Aviana + coin innervate a Toggwaggle and Azalina out to steal a deck if they wanted. But it wouldn’t come with dropping 40/40 of unlimited stats and be a more later combo to tutor with the psychmelon changes.
thoughts?
go face!
Imagine out of all the actually broken wild decks complaining about a meme one that barely sees any play...
If you want to kill a Tier 3 deck, what should be done to Tier 1/2 decks? Wild needs frequent balance changes, yes, but this is far from being a solution imo. You just seem to hate this deck and want to see it omeganerfed
ok
My advice to you is: play the deck yourself and you will see you won't get 100% winrate even if its ridiculous from time to time. That's also the reason some people complain about puzzlebox in a below tier1 deck. From time to time you lose, but that doesn't mean the deck is consistent.
hhahah complaining about togwaggle druid... you are funny
KEKW being actually this bad at the game.
The 1st step towards a better game is firing Mike Donais! We had enough of his "skillful" balances!
#FireMikeDonais
Your complains have no sense for a meme deck. And your nerf suggestions are just overkilling the cards.
This is what makes wild refreshing
What you describe with "they have everything by turn 4" is the ultimate highroll of a deck that will struggle to survive 5 turns against anything without Branching Paths. On average, these decks don't perform well, especially in an aggressive meta like the current one. Aviana Combos haven't been in the meta since she was nerfed, and for the time being, I don't think that will change.
And since you mentioned that you wanted to have some fun with Raza... I don't know if you play other decks too, but if you are mostly playing Reno Priest, one of the best decks in the format, you should not be complaining about some obscure combo decks. Reno Priest is nothing but reactive plays and answers until it can deal 10-20 damage from hand per turn. It is one of the least interactive decks, 0 fun to play against, and its only real weakness are dedicated combo decks.
Is this a serious thread? O_o
"There is no spoon"
The deck is powerful and feels oppressive when they draw the nuts. I've played all sorts of Aviana-Kun decks since MSOG and only Star Aligner Druid was over the top broken.
10 mana Aviana is a problem for the deck. The deck is terrifying when they Jepetto into Aviana but if they don't they may struggle assembling the full combo in a timely fashion. Can't tutor Innervate. Keeping/saving Innervate may lose you the game because you're down a card or you might lose too much tempo holding on to it.
If you play a slow control deck, tough rocks pal. Scissors beats paper. Just know that this deck doesn't line up well against the majority of top tier decks, and for that reason doesn't require nerfs.
aviana is broken in wild, ... you don't say!
in other news, grass is green
DO NOT PLAY WILD!!!
The only thing I find truly busted about Druid decks is Oaken Summons into Archmage Vargoth on turn 4. I'd nerf Vargoth to 5 mana (also slight nerfs Quest Mage and Big Priest) or reduce its health to 4.
Raza priest player complaining about broken decks?
Please...
Greetings, traveler.
Let's make Hunter great.
The deck was a solid tier two deck before Aviana got nerfed to 10 mana. Now you need to also run Innervates to even be able to activate the combo and the high cost tutor spell doesn't auto draw your combo anymore since there are two 10 cost cards.
That simple change reduced the consistency of this combo style to the point that it's barely a tier three deck. With any combo deck they can high roll and seem oppressive but if you actually play it then you will see that it's a struggle to maintain even a 50% win rate.
Really? (about Aviana, not the grass)
"There is no spoon"
found a secret mage player
I've played about 200 games in the past two months with malygos druid with a wr of about 60-62% and I think you're making no sense. All combo druid decks (ALL of them) can be countered by putting a dirty rat in your deck. Just like that, poof, all tog druids die, all maly druids die, most armour druids die too. So your so-called problem, which according to you makes low tier 3 - high tier 4 decks too "busted", has a solution that costs 2 mana and is available to everyone. So many wild games don't even reach turn 6 that you could legitimately revert Aviana back to 9 mana and I don't know that anyone would notice it anyway.
No, seriously, what the hell are you whining about? If you play a control deck without any combo tech while consistently encountering them in your ladder pocket, it's your fault. If you play aggro, you should shut your trap by default since aggro preys with great success on all combo decks in wild. So what are you complaining about? That you lost to something that isn't odd dh, quest mage or pwar? Get a grip on yourself lad, good grief.
U think u can reach turn 4 in wild? 🤔
=)