So basically dh is the answer to the problem. No big RNG, you play most of dh cards and few neutral, and sometimes almost all your deck, so every card has value almost every turn. But people hate DH. People hate RNG. There is no solution that accept the game for what it is.
I think today we have so many choices. You can play aggro, mid range, control or combo and still you have an opportunity to win against any deck because of RNG. Draw the right card is also RNG.
Call it a salt rant if you will, RNG in this game right now is too much. the amount of "discover this, add a random that" from so many cards has turned this game into a joke. You can outplay your opponent for 8 rounds straight but one lucky dragonqueen or discover a spell and they have you losing within 1-3 turns.
Something has to change to make the game more like it used to be. Reliable knowledge and good plays making your wins worthwhile. The level of game swinging RNG right now spits in the face of anyone who has any measure of skill at this game. Whats even the point trying to play well when your opponent can roll the dice and laugh in your face for it.
No. You are not right. Many many many times you discover three crappy card, got crappy card frim your opponent... you are just salty.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63/ DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
Not for climbing the ranks, not for earning money as streamer or tournament player, not for compensating life failures with winning (ok, maybe going too far here... am I?). It can be played for all this, but it is meant as entertainment mostly.
RNG brings fun, game swings are fun, epic effects are fun. Sure, killing people with no RNG Demon Hunter is fun for many players, but you are not the only one existing here. So, many players have much fun playing Yogg-like effects and giggling maniacally. And even though RNG may disappoint them more often than not, and they may cry and get angry more often than giggle, these rare moments make them happy and make them want to play more. Tier 1 and 2 decks have healthy mix or high, medium and low RNG decks, no reason to complain.
I'd rather go with a game that occasionally pulls out wins from out of nowhere than one where the outcome is basically decided on the get go, depending on matchup and starting hand. Are there really people nostalgic over pirate warrior or mid-range shaman?!?
But there has to be a difference between this and puzzle box? I mean puzzle box is absurd. In some ways you could argue it's not very RNG because when it is played against a non-control deck, and assuming you arn't almost dead, it almost guarantees the win. On the other hand mage can only win against highlander hunter if they get puzzle box off before they are dead. Otherwise, the matchup is literally unwinnable. Maybe they can high roll something off dragon caster into discover but it's unlikely. It's why mage pretty much always loses to hunter, since they are dead before box. Having the game decided though on ten random spells is just substantial RNG. If we compare this to warrior RNG where they play a upgrade lackey on a brute and get gromm, well that's just rng and a highroll and is rare. Mage though it's a casino every single game. Casino mage shouldn't be a thing lol.
Maybe you're right. But, again, I'd rather loose to an absurdly highrolling box than to leper gnomes, a flood of braindead murlocs, a fully upgraded Galakrond hit perfectly on curve or a savage roared board of treants. I guess it's about tastes...
Not for climbing the ranks, not for earning money as streamer or tournament player, not for compensating life failures with winning (ok, maybe going too far here... am I?). It can be played for all this, but it is meant as entertainment mostly.
RNG brings fun, game swings are fun, epic effects are fun. Sure, killing people with no RNG Demon Hunter is fun for many players, but you are not the only one existing here. So, many players have much fun playing Yogg-like effects and giggling maniacally. And even though RNG may disappoint them more often than not, and they may cry and get angry more often than giggle, these rare moments make them happy and make them want to play more. Tier 1 and 2 decks have healthy mix or high, medium and low RNG decks, no reason to complain.
The game is a steaming pile of shit these days, no doubt about it.
At this point skill is completely irrelevant as all the algorithms have determined a 50% winrate for all players is the best way to make money, and this we get rng clown fiesta game in and game out.
Not for climbing the ranks, not for earning money as streamer or tournament player, not for compensating life failures with winning (ok, maybe going too far here... am I?). It can be played for all this, but it is meant as entertainment mostly.
RNG brings fun, game swings are fun, epic effects are fun. Sure, killing people with no RNG Demon Hunter is fun for many players, but you are not the only one existing here. So, many players have much fun playing Yogg-like effects and giggling maniacally. And even though RNG may disappoint them more often than not, and they may cry and get angry more often than giggle, these rare moments make them happy and make them want to play more. Tier 1 and 2 decks have healthy mix or high, medium and low RNG decks, no reason to complain.
This is definitely not the way most people play the game
People play the best deck regardless of the rng factor, and the tier 1 decks aren’t commonly based on some rng swing card. Doesn’t mean they don’t have rng in the deck but people play the most effective deck to kill the opponent. I don’t know what reality you live in but playing decks with a stupid rng win condition like yogg have been unusable in both wild and standard for a while. The aggro is too strong to try and have fun
Secret mage is not really based on rng. Tempo demon hunter is not. Face hunter is not. The people cackling are the aggro and tier 1 decks. When people get criticized for being salty here probably end up quitting and therefore help the spread of netdecks rather than originality and fun. This community regularly shits on people for having an opinion and then wonders why demon hunter, with some of the most broken cards ever, is the most successful.
Any game involving cards has some RNG involved in it and no one will contest that. HS, compared the early days, has now too much RNG. It is acceptable when it comes to card draw and discover mechanics. But when it comes to direct action on the board the player should given a certain control. Here is an example of what I am talking about: Let's take Rotnest Drake. Battlecry: If you are holding a dragon destroy a random enemy minion. On top of the ability to destroy a random enemy minion there is a condition. If don't hold a dragon the card is still playable on turn 5 but it loses most of it value. Now, I am not saying it's the best option but just for the sake of proving my point, here is what the Battlecry could be: "Destroy a random enemy minion. If you are holding a dragon, deal 5 damage" it demonstrates that there can be RNG and a certain degree of control that the player can have. Winning because of RNG or your skill to manage RNG is satsifying but winning because of the moves you make and the decisions you make is much more rewarding.
Actually its the other way around. Its cards like Rotnest Drake that is what should be "acceptable RNG" Cause at least this card leaves you some room for countering it. You can play as many tokens as possible when you expect it and decrease the chance it will kill your big minion. Its not different than Ragnaros, i feel like Ragnaros was the type of RNG that was healthy for the game.
Discover mechanic is everything that is wrong with HS right now. It has so many possible outcomes, it makes it so you discover cards that discover more cards that should never be in your deck and everything gets out of control to the point that you cant play around anything. Who exactly is going to play around dragon lackey giving Dragonqueen alexstrasza giving Ysera unleashed that gives you more random dragons.
But as i said once you realize that this is how the game is meant to be you just stop taking it seriously and move on.
This dude gets it.
The amount of myopia contained in this exchange is staggering.
I'd agree to a fault. I think this is true in arena, but in Standard I wouldn't say RNG is killing the game. It's true lackeys are annoying and probably should never ever be printed again in the future (or anything remotley similar), but there still is enough counterplay that I think it's borderline acceptable.
Speaking the truth and being chastised for it. Why am I not surprised. Sorry your opinion is the right one. And mine is the wrong. I won’t do it again! I’m sure you only go with the herd right? Hearthstone is a great skillful game guys!
Well it turns out designing "fun" cards is almost synonymous with randomness. Discover and "add random" effects are very fun to use and they spice up every match. They also make for great YouTube and Twitch content. Where random card generation really becomes a problem is in wild Quest mage. It feels like they play more random garbage than cards from their deck, and it really sucks losing to a random spell from GvG you have never seen before.
Personally I get more tilted from draw RNG than anything. Losing against a Reno priest because of turn 5 Raza the Chained and turn 8 Shadowreaper Anduin is the worst part of Wild for me.
i feel the same man, also losing to top decks and bad draws suck
This is a thing in ALL card games. Dont like it? Go play Chess or something.
I like rng even if it screws me over from time to time. It makes the game a bit more unpredictable, so you dont know the winner after turn 2..
Ah, that is not true, my son. Sit down for I have a tale to tell you.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Purge: Sins of science? It is not a story other card game companies would tell you. Purge sought to eliminste the RNG factor from card games. It grew so embitious that some said that you could even turor for a card at the beginning of every turn. "Mana screw? Screw mana" was their moto. Whenever you would draw a card you would instead search your deck for any card and put it into your hand in order to avoid the big bad RNG.
What happened? Why did you never hear of this tale? Well, you see, Purge crashed and burned faster than Artifact lol. Bad card game players, like some people here, were excited because they thought that no RNG would make them suck less but in reality the game devolved into a counter war. Player A tutors for a card, player B tutors for a counter, then player A tutors for a counter to that, then player B tutors for a counter to that counter and over and over again.
That is the reality of what a card game with no RNG turned out to be.
Thank you for this post. I have often wondered what hearthstone would be like without the weighted RNG. I have often wondered what it would be like if blizzard took their finger off the scale and actually let the players sort themselves and determine the best decks themselves. And tbh, when thinking about this, I have often thought that the game would die a quick death. The mechanics are very simple, as many players have stated, the game became very stale in the pirate warrior and aggro shaman eras. Those decks were simple, consistent and relied very little on RNG. And if Blizzards later choices are any indication, the game was likely losing popularity at a far greater rate.
I guess for a lot of us, what really upsets us is losing to RNG, when we put ourselves in a position to win and have that snatched away by the hearthstone gods. In chess, it is often said you win through the meticulous acquisition of small advantages. You capture a pawn, you trade a knight for a rook....etc. But in hearthstone, the more you gain small advantages....you tempt the hearthstone gods to 'even things up', Yogg Sauron was the ultimate example of this. This piece of shit hits the table and it punished whatever player had worked his way to an advantageous position. The recent return of yogg, the existence of puzzle box, amazing reno etc all signal that blizzard thinks the casino is more fun for players as a whole. And maybe it is....I really don't know. All I know is that as a player who has played competitive strategy games my entire life, I really don't like catch up mechanisms. I don't like it in the basketball when the refs give all the calls to the trailing team to keep it close and i don't like it in hearthstone when discover effects magically keep my opponent in a game that should have been over 3 turns ago.
I made a post on the other thread which is for some reason running on the exact same topic, and I was planning on touching it up just enough to avoid an accusation of a double post, but someone actually took this one in an interesting direction by mentioning Purge.
I remember when someone first described Purge, I made the assumption that it worked with starting situations like Hearthstone. That is to say, the player who goes second draws an extra card. I instantly asked the guy who told me about Purge, "So how does the guy who goes second every win the game?"
It always seemed like, at the pinnacle of deck design in Purge, you'd have two decks that card-for-card nullify each other, and whoever goes into fatigue, or whatever end game mechanic Purge decides to use, would hit the guy who goes second and kill him. I was actually shocked that anyone thought that was a good idea. Ah well, another of the millions of terrible designs on the scrap heap of history.
Regardless, of course there is a competitive side of Hearthstone. Even with a substantial chunk of RNG immune to deck design or other mitigating factors, this card game is an iterative process. That means that the outcome of a single game is not dispositive; the results over thousands of games tell the tale of good vs. great vs. the best players. And I know, every time I make the comment about the iterative process, someone will inevitably say something flippant like, "the outcome of a single game sure matters when you're eliminated in the first round of a tournament, durr!" First of all, technically, that isn't a single game's outcome, it's at least two.
The more relevant answer to that objection lies in a poker analogy. As far as I know, no one has won more than one World Championship Main Event bracelet in about twenty years. Because thousands of people enter that particular tournament each year, attrition generally takes out a lot of the professional players, and you are left with some no-name to win the most hyped poker tourney in the world each year. Nevertheless, not only would no one who knows anything about poker think that no-name is definitively the best player in the world for having won the single tournament, but most people who care about such things have a fairly good idea of who the best players actually are. Because lifetime winnings is easily tracked, and even though all of the huge money winners occasionally fall out of a tournament on their first table, the iterative process leaves unmistakable results over time.
But, if you still want to argue that RNG is dispositive, I am going to start inviting you to a Skype call where you and I can watch replays of recent GM league or HCT events. We'll watch a game to a certain decision point, I will pause, and you can describe in detail how you would play out that turn. And then we will see if the player we are watching comes up with an objectively better play.
I bet I can find several instances where you just miss the best play, at which point we can just dispense with this "my play was perfect but RNG . . . " bullshit once and for all. And won't that be a lovely day?
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I made a post on the other thread which is for some reason running on the exact same topic, and I was planning on touching it up just enough to avoid an accusation of a double post, but someone actually took this one in an interesting direction by mentioning Purge.
I remember when someone first described Purge, I made the assumption that it worked with starting situations like Hearthstone. That is to say, the player who goes second draws an extra card. I instantly asked the guy who told me about Purge, "So how does the guy who goes second every win the game?"
It always seemed like, at the pinnacle of deck design in Purge, you'd have two decks that card-for-card nullify each other, and whoever goes into fatigue, or whatever end game mechanic Purge decides to use, would hit the guy who goes second and kill him. I was actually shocked that anyone thought that was a good idea. Ah well, another of the millions of terrible designs on the scrap heap of history.
Regardless, of course there is a competitive side of Hearthstone. Even with a substantial chunk of RNG immune to deck design or other mitigating factors, this card game is an iterative process. That means that the outcome of a single game is not dispositive; the results over thousands of games tell the tale of good vs. great vs. the best players. And I know, every time I make the comment about the iterative process, someone will inevitably say something flippant like, "the outcome of a single game sure matters when you're eliminated in the first round of a tournament, durr!" First of all, technically, that isn't a single game's outcome, it's at least two.
The more relevant answer to that objection lies in a poker analogy. As far as I know, no one has won more than one World Championship Main Event bracelet in about twenty years. Because thousands of people enter that particular tournament each year, attrition generally takes out a lot of the professional players, and you are left with some no-name to win the most hyped poker tourney in the world each year. Nevertheless, not only would no one who knows anything about poker think that no-name is definitively the best player in the world for having won the single tournament, but most people who care about such things have a fairly good idea of who the best players actually are. Because lifetime winnings is easily tracked, and even though all of the huge money winners occasionally fall out of a tournament on their first table, the iterative process leaves unmistakable results over time.
But, if you still want to argue that RNG is dispositive, I am going to start inviting you to a Skype call where you and I can watch replays of recent GM league or HCT events. We'll watch a game to a certain decision point, I will pause, and you can describe in detail how you would play out that turn. And then we will see if the player we are watching comes up with an objectively better play.
I bet I can find several instances where you just miss the best play, at which point we can just dispense with this "my play was perfect but RNG . . . " bullshit once and for all. And won't that be a lovely day?
So you don't think that RNG plays a huge factor in the outcomes of this game? Of course the best players in the world are going to come up with on average better plays than the average player on the forum. However, even those types of arguments are subjective, in that perhaps the average forum goer actually came up with a good play, but he won't be as articulate as you are and wont have the standing of the pro player. What people are talking about in here is that hearthstone has too much RNG and it makes the game not fun for many of us, your answer is a very longwinded git gud.
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So basically dh is the answer to the problem. No big RNG, you play most of dh cards and few neutral, and sometimes almost all your deck, so every card has value almost every turn. But people hate DH. People hate RNG. There is no solution that accept the game for what it is.
I think today we have so many choices. You can play aggro, mid range, control or combo and still you have an opportunity to win against any deck because of RNG. Draw the right card is also RNG.
No. You are not right. Many many many times you discover three crappy card, got crappy card frim your opponent... you are just salty.
EU 11/2015+ , f2p 03/2021+: DK 63 / DH 205 /Dr 277 / Hu 733 / Ma 6666 / Pa 1072 / Pr 1165 / Ro 1791 / Sh 1303 / Wl 707 / Wr 664
The game is meant to be played for FUN!!!
Not for climbing the ranks, not for earning money as streamer or tournament player, not for compensating life failures with winning (ok, maybe going too far here... am I?). It can be played for all this, but it is meant as entertainment mostly.
RNG brings fun, game swings are fun, epic effects are fun. Sure, killing people with no RNG Demon Hunter is fun for many players, but you are not the only one existing here. So, many players have much fun playing Yogg-like effects and giggling maniacally. And even though RNG may disappoint them more often than not, and they may cry and get angry more often than giggle, these rare moments make them happy and make them want to play more. Tier 1 and 2 decks have healthy mix or high, medium and low RNG decks, no reason to complain.
We would not hate DH if it was not this good even after three waves of nerfs.
Maybe you're right. But, again, I'd rather loose to an absurdly highrolling box than to leper gnomes, a flood of braindead murlocs, a fully upgraded Galakrond hit perfectly on curve or a savage roared board of treants. I guess it's about tastes...
100% agreed.
Mage right now is a goddam clownfiesta. I know its been a RNG class for a while now...long gone are the days of freeze mage, but jesus....
"Disocover mage and other assorted RNG shit" is their class identity now.
I'm not saying a little RNG can't be good, even great for the game. But right now there seems to be too much.
The game is a steaming pile of shit these days, no doubt about it.
At this point skill is completely irrelevant as all the algorithms have determined a 50% winrate for all players is the best way to make money, and this we get rng clown fiesta game in and game out.
This is definitely not the way most people play the game
People play the best deck regardless of the rng factor, and the tier 1 decks aren’t commonly based on some rng swing card. Doesn’t mean they don’t have rng in the deck but people play the most effective deck to kill the opponent. I don’t know what reality you live in but playing decks with a stupid rng win condition like yogg have been unusable in both wild and standard for a while. The aggro is too strong to try and have fun
Secret mage is not really based on rng. Tempo demon hunter is not. Face hunter is not. The people cackling are the aggro and tier 1 decks. When people get criticized for being salty here probably end up quitting and therefore help the spread of netdecks rather than originality and fun. This community regularly shits on people for having an opinion and then wonders why demon hunter, with some of the most broken cards ever, is the most successful.
Again... RNG is the name of the game. Skill hasn’t been an issue for years, so the sooner people accept that the better.
enjoy casino mage and rogue. That’s the point... to enjoy playing.
The amount of myopia contained in this exchange is staggering.
Discover mechanic is fun and interesting. Maybe try it out instead of playing with and around mindless predictable netdecks
I'd agree to a fault. I think this is true in arena, but in Standard I wouldn't say RNG is killing the game. It's true lackeys are annoying and probably should never ever be printed again in the future (or anything remotley similar), but there still is enough counterplay that I think it's borderline acceptable.
Speaking the truth and being chastised for it. Why am I not surprised. Sorry your opinion is the right one. And mine is the wrong. I won’t do it again! I’m sure you only go with the herd right? Hearthstone is a great skillful game guys!
Well it turns out designing "fun" cards is almost synonymous with randomness. Discover and "add random" effects are very fun to use and they spice up every match. They also make for great YouTube and Twitch content. Where random card generation really becomes a problem is in wild Quest mage. It feels like they play more random garbage than cards from their deck, and it really sucks losing to a random spell from GvG you have never seen before.
Personally I get more tilted from draw RNG than anything. Losing against a Reno priest because of turn 5 Raza the Chained and turn 8 Shadowreaper Anduin is the worst part of Wild for me.
Tickatus isn't fun or interactive
But have you lost to 0 mana Alexstrasza Conjurer’s Calling into Ysiel Windsinger and Malygos then Pyroblast to death? Lots of fun
Thank you for this post. I have often wondered what hearthstone would be like without the weighted RNG. I have often wondered what it would be like if blizzard took their finger off the scale and actually let the players sort themselves and determine the best decks themselves. And tbh, when thinking about this, I have often thought that the game would die a quick death. The mechanics are very simple, as many players have stated, the game became very stale in the pirate warrior and aggro shaman eras. Those decks were simple, consistent and relied very little on RNG. And if Blizzards later choices are any indication, the game was likely losing popularity at a far greater rate.
I guess for a lot of us, what really upsets us is losing to RNG, when we put ourselves in a position to win and have that snatched away by the hearthstone gods. In chess, it is often said you win through the meticulous acquisition of small advantages. You capture a pawn, you trade a knight for a rook....etc. But in hearthstone, the more you gain small advantages....you tempt the hearthstone gods to 'even things up', Yogg Sauron was the ultimate example of this. This piece of shit hits the table and it punished whatever player had worked his way to an advantageous position. The recent return of yogg, the existence of puzzle box, amazing reno etc all signal that blizzard thinks the casino is more fun for players as a whole. And maybe it is....I really don't know. All I know is that as a player who has played competitive strategy games my entire life, I really don't like catch up mechanisms. I don't like it in the basketball when the refs give all the calls to the trailing team to keep it close and i don't like it in hearthstone when discover effects magically keep my opponent in a game that should have been over 3 turns ago.
Yes
I made a post on the other thread which is for some reason running on the exact same topic, and I was planning on touching it up just enough to avoid an accusation of a double post, but someone actually took this one in an interesting direction by mentioning Purge.
I remember when someone first described Purge, I made the assumption that it worked with starting situations like Hearthstone. That is to say, the player who goes second draws an extra card. I instantly asked the guy who told me about Purge, "So how does the guy who goes second every win the game?"
It always seemed like, at the pinnacle of deck design in Purge, you'd have two decks that card-for-card nullify each other, and whoever goes into fatigue, or whatever end game mechanic Purge decides to use, would hit the guy who goes second and kill him. I was actually shocked that anyone thought that was a good idea. Ah well, another of the millions of terrible designs on the scrap heap of history.
Regardless, of course there is a competitive side of Hearthstone. Even with a substantial chunk of RNG immune to deck design or other mitigating factors, this card game is an iterative process. That means that the outcome of a single game is not dispositive; the results over thousands of games tell the tale of good vs. great vs. the best players. And I know, every time I make the comment about the iterative process, someone will inevitably say something flippant like, "the outcome of a single game sure matters when you're eliminated in the first round of a tournament, durr!" First of all, technically, that isn't a single game's outcome, it's at least two.
The more relevant answer to that objection lies in a poker analogy. As far as I know, no one has won more than one World Championship Main Event bracelet in about twenty years. Because thousands of people enter that particular tournament each year, attrition generally takes out a lot of the professional players, and you are left with some no-name to win the most hyped poker tourney in the world each year. Nevertheless, not only would no one who knows anything about poker think that no-name is definitively the best player in the world for having won the single tournament, but most people who care about such things have a fairly good idea of who the best players actually are. Because lifetime winnings is easily tracked, and even though all of the huge money winners occasionally fall out of a tournament on their first table, the iterative process leaves unmistakable results over time.
But, if you still want to argue that RNG is dispositive, I am going to start inviting you to a Skype call where you and I can watch replays of recent GM league or HCT events. We'll watch a game to a certain decision point, I will pause, and you can describe in detail how you would play out that turn. And then we will see if the player we are watching comes up with an objectively better play.
I bet I can find several instances where you just miss the best play, at which point we can just dispense with this "my play was perfect but RNG . . . " bullshit once and for all. And won't that be a lovely day?
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
So you don't think that RNG plays a huge factor in the outcomes of this game? Of course the best players in the world are going to come up with on average better plays than the average player on the forum. However, even those types of arguments are subjective, in that perhaps the average forum goer actually came up with a good play, but he won't be as articulate as you are and wont have the standing of the pro player. What people are talking about in here is that hearthstone has too much RNG and it makes the game not fun for many of us, your answer is a very longwinded git gud.