Hearthpwn

Quote from Hooghout >>

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Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late.

(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you). 

 Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.

Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.

 Lots of words, trying to turn things around while you don't have the proof of not rigging. Ever heard of non disclosure agreements? You don't sell out. The competition will not trust you then when you want to work for them. Your sofism won't help you this time.

Hooghout, even you should know that "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't hold in a debate. That is how our society functioned in the Medieval times. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused and you have presented none. No, "other companies did it" isn't evidence.

You brought the accusation so you need to present evidence to back it up or else your accusation doesn't have any ground to stand on.

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TheFubar >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adeverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game.I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late. 

 It sounds like the lack of evidence is the reason he believes Blizzard isn't rigging.  Asking questions is perfectly fine btw, but when the only 'evidence' being presented comes from people complaining they lost to bad rng...why on earth should we suddenly jump to the conclusion that Blizzard is rigging the system?

I say BAD rng, but honestly what most people here present doesn't even qualify.  Drawing the 'perfect' card from their deck?  Discovering the card they needed to win?  Playing a bad matchup multiple times in a row?  Really?  These are apparently the kind of things that only a rigged system could deliver.

 I'm not talking about bad faith here. And you assume people reaching legend or play high level won't complain about RNG. Maybe they do, you don't know that. It is cynical to assume only bad players complain about RNG. 

It's more conceptual here. Zephrys e.g is officially rigging the board state. A.I can do that so why not covert. For what reasons? Tell me, to keep the game fast paced, serving a target audience, ensuring a preconceived meta, increase pack selling, stimulating f2p to buy packs...... 

  Yeesh. News flash: Zephrys is, put bluntly, stupid. As has been shown time and again, it fails to read the board very well, which is why you have to trick it to give you what you want by limiting the amount of mana you have left to play. And its universe of cards consist of only basic and classic cards. Include expansion packs, and the problems of coding its AI increase exponentially. The AI Blizzard uses for solo adventures is equally stupid. Many of them can be crushed by a simple mill rogue deck, because the AI doesn't understand why you keep playing "weak" cards. The only reason solo adventures are challenging is because the hero powers and cards are so insanely powerful.

All the other outcomes you suggest are much, much easier to do via card design, adjusting mana costs, or changing prices for packs. You get the same outcome, but without risking breaking the law.

Congrats, you're zero for 22,425. Still waiting for that evidence. Better get cracking, or people might start thinking you're nothing but a troll.

Exactly, it's not even possible (or easy?) to make a card like Zephrys work perfectly, or AI to play halfway decently, but apparently Blizzard has managed to put some code into the game that reads the match status, decides who is ahead and tweaks RNG in a way to balance that? At the same time there is another piece of code that recognizes what deck you are playing, knows exactly what kind of deck you would fare badly against (in a constantly shifting meta too) and if you are winning to match is going to pair you with one next game? Yeah, right....

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

Exactly, it's not even possible (or easy?) to make a card like Zephrys work perfectly, or AI to play halfway decently, but apparently Blizzard has managed to put some code into the game that reads the match status, decides who is ahead and tweaks RNG in a way to balance that? At the same time there is another piece of code that recognizes what deck you are playing, knows exactly what kind of deck you would fare badly against (in a constantly shifting meta too) and if you are winning to match is going to pair you with one next game? Yeah, right....

 Umh...ZePhRyS iS sEcReTlY cOdEd To GiVe YoU sHiTtY cHoIcEs On PuRpOsE sO tHaT yOu ThInK tHaT Bli$$ard AI iS bAd WhEn It AcTuAlLy IsN't!!!

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late.

(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you). 

 Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.

Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.

 Lots of words, trying to turn things around while you don't have the proof of not rigging. Ever heard of non disclosure agreements? You don't sell out. The competition will not trust you then when you want to work for them. Your sofism won't help you this time.

Hooghout, even you should know that "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't hold in a debate. That is how our society functioned in the Medieval times. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused and you have presented none. No, "other companies did it" isn't evidence.

You brought the accusation so you need to present evidence to back it up or else your accusation doesn't have any ground to stand on.

 You're a believer. And one can't argue with believers in the goodness of Blizzard.

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late.

(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you). 

 Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.

Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.

 Lots of words, trying to turn things around while you don't have the proof of not rigging. Ever heard of non disclosure agreements? You don't sell out. The competition will not trust you then when you want to work for them. Your sofism won't help you this time.

Hooghout, even you should know that "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't hold in a debate. That is how our society functioned in the Medieval times. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused and you have presented none. No, "other companies did it" isn't evidence.

You brought the accusation so you need to present evidence to back it up or else your accusation doesn't have any ground to stand on.

 You're a believer. And one can't argue with believers in the goodness of Blizzard.

 Great job, now you have two things to prove.

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late.

(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you). 

 Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.

Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.

 Lots of words, trying to turn things around while you don't have the proof of not rigging. Ever heard of non disclosure agreements? You don't sell out. The competition will not trust you then when you want to work for them. Your sofism won't help you this time.

Hooghout, even you should know that "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't hold in a debate. That is how our society functioned in the Medieval times. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused and you have presented none. No, "other companies did it" isn't evidence.

You brought the accusation so you need to present evidence to back it up or else your accusation doesn't have any ground to stand on.

 You're a believer. And one can't argue with believers in the goodness of Blizzard.

 Great job, now you have two things to prove.

 Another sophist being captious, using plausible but fallacious and deceptive reasoning.

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

 Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG. 

You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.

 You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.

As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.

So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.'  Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non.  Remember Enron 2001?  A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/  

Frauds only possible because nobody ask serious questions....till it was too late.

(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you). 

 Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.

Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.

 Lots of words, trying to turn things around while you don't have the proof of not rigging. Ever heard of non disclosure agreements? You don't sell out. The competition will not trust you then when you want to work for them. Your sofism won't help you this time.

Hooghout, even you should know that "guilty until proven innocent" doesn't hold in a debate. That is how our society functioned in the Medieval times. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused and you have presented none. No, "other companies did it" isn't evidence.

You brought the accusation so you need to present evidence to back it up or else your accusation doesn't have any ground to stand on.

 You're a believer. And one can't argue with believers in the goodness of Blizzard.

 Great job, now you have two things to prove.

 Another sophist being captious, using plausible but fallacious and deceptive reasoning.

Yes, you are right. I should use your "guilty until proven innocent" reasoning instead. Isn't it enough for you to be a burden to society? Do you have to be a burden online too?

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

The thing is, people who have played games that employed actual randomness and have played many of today's games which are overengineered to be more 'fun' know that Hearthstone is not random. No amount of calling people tinfoil hat, or making silly arguments about proving you did not murder someone or being willfully obtuse can change that. The fact that the same debate tactics are deployed again and again to try to shut down conversation  on the topic only highlights how on the money the accusations are. 

 No, people with tinfoil hats think they "know" this because it helps them deal with the fact that they're not as good at HS as they think they are. No matter how many times you repeat your nonsense, it doesn't change the fact that you have yet to offer an ounce of actual evidence.

So, first of all we can all agree that the OP isn't asking about stuff like ladeeda's examples.  When the discover mechanic is being weighed towards class cards, for instance, that's no longer advertised as pure randomness.  There are extra rules being introduced into the metaphorical "dice roll" of the program choosing the cards from which to choose to discover.

Secondly, I didn't read all six pages of this post, but I did follow ALL of the major conspiracy threads back years ago when people were putting forward various forms of "proof" that Blizzard was directly and sinisterly manipulating matchmaking and such.

The answer to the OP's question is very short and sweet.  Absolutely NOT.  No one has come remotely close to a statistically rigorous proof that anything fishy is going on.  I'm not a PhD, but I'm at the Master's Degree level of statistics, and I would hasten to add to that absolute statement that, in my opinion, no one has even come close.

Most people don't really comprehend the intense amount of data gathering such a proof would require.  Furthermore, though I continue to use the word "proof", that's not even an accurate term to use.  The best one could do in the realm of mathematics is make a statement in the form, "I am X% sure that this matchmaking set is not randomly distributed within the rules Blizzard advertises."

"Within the rules Blizzard advertises" is a catch all phrase for MMR and other such considerations.  Obviously, every time you hit the play button, you aren't just matched with anyone who happens to hit the button within a few seconds of you.  And the X% in that statement would get closer to 100 with more and more data, but never actually get to 100.

Usually, a "proof" involves a 95% or 99% confidence interval, which would require thousands of matches played over a relatively short amount of time.  It would be impossible for one person to just take their own played matches over weeks and months of play and make any statement of any statistical value, you would need your data collected from multiple players over the same short period of time.

To my knowledge, no one has ever actually done the work to gather the needed data.

99% of the time, the "proof" that someone will offer basically amounts to an anecdote with some numbers attached to make it look official.  It is usually possible for even a high school statistics student to spot the deficiencies.  But since some people are so convinced that their perception is the truth, they will ignore the basics they know to be true about statistics, or just simple arithmetic.

Hope that helps.

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

The thing is, people who have played games that employed actual randomness and have played many of today's games which are overengineered to be more 'fun' know that Hearthstone is not random. No amount of calling people tinfoil hat, or making silly arguments about proving you did not murder someone or being willfully obtuse can change that. The fact that the same debate tactics are deployed again and again to try to shut down conversation  on the topic only highlights how on the money the accusations are. 

 No, people with tinfoil hats think they "know" this because it helps them deal with the fact that they're not as good at HS as they think they are. No matter how many times you repeat your nonsense, it doesn't change the fact that you have yet to offer an ounce of actual evidence.

 Sigh.....the ever repeated 'argument': asking questions about RNG/MMR/Blizzard is not rigging = proof being bad at the game. So stupid, so childish. Accusing people of tinfoil is a very good coverup/defense tactic. Yes continue to make a fool out of yourself thinking that that argument would stick.

The American Stock Exchange has a watchdog: the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission). They investigate independently to ensure fair and level playing field. Dealing with foreknowledge e.g. is strictly forbidden as it manipulates investors. Nobody does that right? Still the SEC is calling the shots. Why should such a commission exist in the financial world and not likewise in the game world?

Who independent asserts the player base isn't being manipulated big time? No one within right mind will and could argue against an independent inquiry. There is no reason whatsoever NOT to investigate Blizzard. It is simply the right thing to do. And if everything is fine, then it will put to an end a useless discussion.

People who challenge the “randomness” are told that they have no proof, although they presumably play the game for years in many cases... so what is everyone else’s proof that the game is truly random then?

This is on the hearthstone wiki, clear as mud:

“When a player enters the matchmaking queue the system will attempt to find another player in the queue with an identical matchmaking value. If one is found, the two players will be entered into a match with each other. If a perfect match is not found, the matchmaking system will "wait a few seconds" and then search again. However, each time the system fails to find a match its matchmaking parameters are widened, allowing for increasingly rough match-ups.This ensures players are not left waiting for too long, but as a result, players may occasionally be matched with opponents of significantly different rating, rank or record”

...this does sound anything but random to me!!!

also a mod on one of their forums said 

“Since each player starts at the bottom of the ladder at start, we want fair matches for everyone (aka. win-rate close to 50%).”

So they DO control the win rate at ladder bottom to be close to 50%... no sh*t

Quote from M0res >>

People who challenge the “randomness” are told that they have no proof, although they presumably play the game for years in many cases... so what is everyone else’s proof that the game is truly random then?

This is on the hearthstone wiki, clear as mud:

“When a player enters the matchmaking queue the system will attempt to find another player in the queue with an identical matchmaking value. If one is found, the two players will be entered into a match with each other. If a perfect match is not found, the matchmaking system will "wait a few seconds" and then search again. However, each time the system fails to find a match its matchmaking parameters are widened, allowing for increasingly rough match-ups.This ensures players are not left waiting for too long, but as a result, players may occasionally be matched with opponents of significantly different rating, rank or record”

...this does sound anything but random to me!!!

also a mod on one of their forums said 

“Since each player starts at the bottom of the ladder at start, we want fair matches for everyone (aka. win-rate close to 50%).”

So they DO control the win rate at ladder bottom to be close to 50%... no sh*t

Again, we need to make a distinction between known rules that affect RNG and RNG manipulation because they are NOT the same thing, and a lot of people are confusing them in this thread. Known rules are consistent and apply universally, while manipulation is inconsistent and restricted. Let me clarify with a couple of examples:

It was a known rule that Discover cards would be biased towards class cards. Blizzard had confirmed it, and players could use this information when building their decks (by putting Stonehill Defender in every Paladin deck) and take it into consideration when playing against opponents (by playing around your Paladin opponent's third Sunkeeper Tarim). Everytime a Discover card was played, the chances of discovering a neutral or class card were the same - skewed but consistent.

Similarly, there are known rules that govern matchmaking, because if matchmaking was 100% random, no one would be having fun (that is, if we agree that everyone is having the most fun when playing against opponents with a similar skill level). Again, Blizzard have clearly stated what the rules are and how they work, as illustrated above. You're matched according to MMR and time spent in queue. The rules are consistent and work the same every time you queue up, and they're the same for your opponents. Blizzard do not "control the win rate", they simply match people with similar skill level against each other, which should naturally produce a win rate close to 50%.

RNG manipulation, on the other hand, is inconsistent and restricted. It would have been manipulation if only players who had spend money on the game would have a higher chance to Discover class cards. It would also be manipulation if the chance to Discover class cards depended on time of day, win rate, games played that day, etc. It would be matchmaking manipulation if players who have spent money on the game are matched with opponents of lower skill to inflate their win rate. It would be manipulation if matchmaking targeted certain players and gave them (un)favourable matchups no matter what deck they played. Again, it is RNG manipulation if it is inconsistent (different depending on the situation) and restricted (only applies to some players).

So far, no one has presented proof of any RNG manipulation in Hearthstone. One should think it would be possible with the amount of data collected through various deck trackers, though. I really hope everyone who suspects Blizzard of foul play gets together and conducts a thorough investigation (hopefully with more success that the flat earthers in "Behind the Curve").

What you say makes sense and I do agree.

It’s just matchmaking that is my problem, not rng or I’m not implying that blizzard fixes the matches. All I’m saying is that the type of opponent you will play against next ( not talking about ranking, mainly about chances of winning against a particular deck) may be controlled to keep win rates at a particular percentage as they do with bottom ladder.  

I just find it hard to explain as to why when I’m playing hl priest, most of my games are against hl mages, a 44% chance of winning based on the current meta. If I switch to hl mage then I suddenly play against hl hunters, if I switch to hl hunter I am matched with murloc paladins. I am the same player, same ranking so I wouldn’t expect a shift based on the mmr rules above.

I’m not saying that this happens 100% of the time but frequently enough to be noticeable. 

my example above is not ruled out by blizzards matchmaking rules I quoted earlier.

It's time that the mods locked this thread. The amount of tinfoil being throw around is sure to kill some sea turtles.

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

The thing is, people who have played games that employed actual randomness and have played many of today's games which are overengineered to be more 'fun' know that Hearthstone is not random. No amount of calling people tinfoil hat, or making silly arguments about proving you did not murder someone or being willfully obtuse can change that. The fact that the same debate tactics are deployed again and again to try to shut down conversation  on the topic only highlights how on the money the accusations are. 

 No, people with tinfoil hats think they "know" this because it helps them deal with the fact that they're not as good at HS as they think they are. No matter how many times you repeat your nonsense, it doesn't change the fact that you have yet to offer an ounce of actual evidence.

 What if the person making the accusation gets legend every month? Would that make a difference?

 Actually, no. But you must be the greatest player in history if you're able to make legend DESPITE the evil soulless corporation deliberately stacking the deck against you by reading your cards and matching you with opponents who are highly likely to beat you. You ought to go pro.

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

The thing is, people who have played games that employed actual randomness and have played many of today's games which are overengineered to be more 'fun' know that Hearthstone is not random. No amount of calling people tinfoil hat, or making silly arguments about proving you did not murder someone or being willfully obtuse can change that. The fact that the same debate tactics are deployed again and again to try to shut down conversation  on the topic only highlights how on the money the accusations are. 

 No, people with tinfoil hats think they "know" this because it helps them deal with the fact that they're not as good at HS as they think they are. No matter how many times you repeat your nonsense, it doesn't change the fact that you have yet to offer an ounce of actual evidence.

 What if the person making the accusation gets legend every month? Would that make a difference?

 Actually, no. But you must be the greatest player in history if you're able to make legend DESPITE the evil soulless corporation deliberately stacking the deck against you by reading your cards and matching you with opponents who are highly likely to beat you. You ought to go pro.

 All your posts are blah blah blah, not really saying anything meaningful. Evil souls here, evil souls there... You are just spamming this topic without having anything to add 

Quote from M0res >>

 All your posts are blah blah blah, not really saying anything meaningful. Evil souls here, evil souls there... You are just spamming this topic without having anything to add