HSreplay matches actually often show the ranks of players.
I just counted 10 (out of 10) legend players being matched with rank D5/4. It's day 3 of new Season and the ladder is full of people climbing so we can't expect to see many legend versus D5-, but when the player pool shrinks after people reach their goals that will happen. Legend ranks out of top 2k are matched with D5- players all the time (mid-late Season). Other people besides me on the forums confirm this.
Last month after I made it to Legend I was getting matched with either D1-D5 players or fellow legend players around my rank. As the month went by and since I didn't have any further aspirations like high legend, I started playing some 'meme' decks for fun and had a win rate around 40% over 100-120 games. My legend rank slowly dropped from 10'000 to below 30'000 and I was getting matched with either ~Platinum5 players or again legend players around my rank, but I didn't face a single D1-D5 player again. I don't think my MMR was so low though that ALL Diamond players had a higher MMR than me (and other legend players around my rank) so I am not sure how to interpret that
Last month after I made it to Legend I was getting matched with either D1-D5 players or fellow legend players around my rank. As the month went by and since I didn't have any further aspirations like high legend, I started playing some 'meme' decks for fun and had a win rate around 40% over 100-120 games. My legend rank slowly dropped from 10'000 to below 30'000 and I was getting matched with either ~Platinum5 players or again legend players around my rank, but I didn't face a single D1-D5 player again. I don't think my MMR was so low though that ALL Diamond players had a higher MMR than me (and other legend players around my rank) so I am not sure how to interpret that
To me it sounds like the system works as intended. My interpretation is that there are very few players meming around with a low winrate at the rank floors in Diamond. They probably tryhard to climb further, as climbing from D5 to Legend is not that difficult, or just stop playing ranked (like I did last season.)
One of the weaknesses of the current system is that a lot of D5-D1 players would be a lot more motivated and confident knowing that their MMR is actually much higher than many Legend players. I entered in top 1k in Wild at a time when there were at least 8k people in legend.
Well I guess it is possible, one thing we don't know is how sensitive is the MMR, meaning how much does it change from a single win/loss, since before I started 'meming around' I had played twice as many games with my main deck and a solid ~60% WR
This depends on factors like your current MMR and population of players in each rank. I'd say for most players that aren't in the top legend rank the system is pretty sensitive during non-peak Seasonal times.
Some of you here may know I warned before the release of the new ladder system that there are problems with it. Many noob posters back then were arrogant enough to accuse me that I speak nonsense. Now that a month has passed and I have hundreds of matches in legend and high legend I will share one more time how the ranking system works, its flaws, how it can be tricked by us and how it could get improved.
1. There is no real rank matching anymore, there is only MMR matching
Q: How does matchmaking work for each season? A: There are two matchmaking pools: matchmaking by rating (aka. MMR) and by rank. When your star bonus multiplier is bigger than 1, or you are in Legend rank, you are (generally) in the first matchmaking pool; when your star bonus drops to 1, you are in the second pool.
However, this is either:
Not properly explained in the FAQ OR
Not working as intended OR
A lie
Since people with star bonus multiplier 1 (SBM 1) get matched with such from OTHER RANKS.
Many players from all kind of ranks get matched with legend players (when you are a legend player your opponent's rank is always shown to you) since the MMRs of both players are similar. There are two problems with this:
1.1. A player in one of the lower leagues can raise his MMR very quickly (only by winning a couple of matches) to the legend-level MMR pool. This means the probability of facing a legend player until you reach D5 with SBM 1 is very close to 100%.
1.2. If a player raises his MMR to the legend-level why is he not promoted to the legend-level? The ranking system design simply says: Well, you don't have to only raise your MMR to the legend-level, you have to keep it there for at least 20 matches to be promoted to legend. Okay, but what if I play 19 matches, reach D1 rank and stop there, am I really not worthy of being legend? Well, yes, that's how it works - one more win could place you in top 200 legend, but if you don't make it you won't be even in top 20k legend. But this doesn't seem logical? Well, sorry, but that's how the system works.
2. Fastest way to climb while with the SBM is by adopting concede and MMR tanking
While having a SBM it is bad (real time wise) to play matches taking longer than 5 minutes. This means choosing an aggro deck heavily favored against certain classes and heavily unfavored against others is the fastest way to climb since one can simply concede on the unfavored matches and climb faster despite the losses from concede due to the SBM. One can also tank his MMR on safe floors so that he is matched with easier opponents in next matches (this works only during the Season in question and won't transfer your weak MMR to next Season).
Moreover when players realize the concede potential they can start "co-oping" with the first to play auto-conceding and this would become the fastest way to climb with the SBM since the time spent between matches will be less than 30 seconds.
3. How to improve the ranking system and make it logical
The matching by MMR-only is good and has to stay. The problem is that the players are not properly rewarded based on their final MMR rank, but are rewarded based on the league they reached. Thus we have the following absurd cases:
- Very skilled players being matched only by MMR during climbing to legend with high legend players not making legend
- Noob players who got lucky making legend rank early in the month and stopped playing after (falling beyond 20k) would get far greater rewards than people who grinded a lot during the Season, but couldn't make legend due to the MMR matching with active high-legend players
I am observing this regularly in high legend (top 500) - very skilled players from rank D4- being matched with me without knowing they are playing versus a high legend player may not reach legend at all since there is still a lot of grind from D4 to legend when the system matches you with high legend players (it's the same as the system forcing someone from legend 1k+ to reach legend 500-). This means some of those skilled guys won't make legend rank not because of something else, but because of how the ranking system currently works.
However, the solution to this whole mess is very simple and could be done in stages:
3.1. The first thing that has to be done is excluding the top 20% of the legend players from the matchmaking with OTHER POOLS. These have to be in their own pool so that they are not matched against people who climb.
3.2. MMR gains during lower ranks has to be smaller so that people who win 3-4 matches in a row due to luck aren't matched with legend pool players right away in the next games.
3.3. Moreover, I suggest getting rid of the leagues completely and transforming the whole ranking system like the current legend experience - everyone has a number to his name signifying his rank in the system. In such ladder the players' MMR-ranks won't be changed from one month to another and the rewards at the end of each Season would be given based on in which percent of players one has finished. Such system could have heavy MMR decays for those that decide not to play for longer period of time to keep their current "lucky" rank.
3.4. Make the SBM that is determined depending on one's placement/MMR in previous month the minimum SBM. The current SBM after each game should be determined based on the higher value of your minimum SBM or your opponents minimum SBM in case you won the game.
Thank you for putting this out there. It is very well written and you are right on the money.
The question then becomes why is it done this way. The answer is two fold. Player engagement and stimulating spending.
If any player with a median MMR can make legend by catching a hot streak at d3 (and lets be honest, the system is built so that anyone who puts in the games should achieve a minimum d5), then more players get to feel they are good at the game and are more likely to continue playing/buying cards. If your MMR was actually your rank, then most players would eventually see that their monthly results are very consistent. All the various manipulations from the matchmaker to the 'weighted' RNG are there to maximize player engagement, and obfuscate the players true skill level which is kept hidden.
The ranks also allow blizzard to utilize progress gates. The one that is most obvious is the one at D1 to legend. Time and time again players come in and relate their experience of horrible matchups/rng right before they reach legend. These progress gates are built on frustration, they are there to get you to abandon your deck and craft a new one to make that final push. Players are now wise to this because when they switch deck their 'pocket meta' all of a sudden changes to the counters to the new deck they are running. And if you don't have all the cards, the matchmaker will repeatedly beat you with the cards you don't have to make you think you could meet your goal if you just crafted that card.
So you will constantly see changes made to maximize player engagement and encourage spending. Providing a true/fair competitive environment that allows players to reach ranks based on skill alone is not a good business model as far as blizzard is concerned. This is not just blizzard, it is industry wide, so I am not trying to say go play something else, what I am saying is don't fall for the tactics.
A player in one of the lower leagues can raise his MMR very quickly (only by winning a couple of matches) to the legend-level MMR poolThis means the probability of facing a legend player until you reach D5 with SBM 1 is very close to 100%.
Here I think you are wrong. Players of low MMR should never be matched with players 1000s of points above them. If Hearthstone MMR works remotely close to the ones in Battlegrounds or StarCraft 2, you can absolutely NOT reach Legend MMR quickly.
The HSreplay matches actually often show the ranks of players. Some matchups are close, others are several leagues apart. Has this site figured out how the MMR is calculated so you can know where you are at yet? It has been done for other games and should not be that complicated.
I think you can see MMR through your legend rank and through the ranks of your opponents who reach legend. I tend to be between 3 and 500 in wild when I make legend and somewhere around 5k the past 2 seasons in standard by the end. This is pretty consistent with the people I friend after a game (I tend to play weird homebrews in wild so I get a lot of friend requests after the game). So it seems to be who the system thinks is a fair match for me.
I would like the idea of legend rank and ladder climbing being two completely different pools and leagues. Once a player gets legend rank then even when the month resets they start at legend rank again. It's more motivation to climb the ladder since in most cases the ladder climb is more about time invested than ranking. There can be a depreciation of the rank too. If you don't play any games for a month then you drop back down into the ladder rankings.
They just need to get rid of MMR. I only read threads like this now because I am hoping there is a groundswell to end MMR. They already had a matchmaking system, it’s called the ladder. Feeling like you are artificially being given “harder” opponents just because you are winning is beyond stupid. I have already quit Hearthstone and won’t return until they completely eliminate MMR
This could be done with an MMR-only ladder too, but they have to work more to make it happen:
- Live ladder website tracking and displaying all MMR ranks and the current MMR decay
- Special daily chain-quests for those not missing a day in the ladder
- Special hidden/secret gifts unlocked by reaching specific MMR-steps during the month
It's doable. The problem is they don't invest in the game, they just milk the cards and at some point the inevitable happens - the game dies. So they start milking HS2 and the cycle repeats...
Yeah I made legend and then was just playing with fun or meme decks - if you want to call that dumpster legend, then go ahead. As I no longer cared about winrate, I was soon getting matched against gold or even silver players! I didn’t dare friend any if I won - they’d rage against the machine if they lost to a legend player while trying to get from silver to gold!
There are lots of HS players - it’s not impossible to match up based on rank, even us dumpster legend types....
If any player with a median MMR can make legend by catching a hot streak at d3 (and lets be honest, the system is built so that anyone who puts in the games should achieve a minimum d5), then more players get to feel they are good at the game and are more likely to continue playing/buying cards. If your MMR was actually your rank, then most players would eventually see that their monthly results are very consistent. All the various manipulations from the matchmaker to the 'weighted' RNG are there to maximize player engagement, and obfuscate the players true skill level which is kept hidden.
The ranks also allow blizzard to utilize progress gates. The one that is most obvious is the one at D1 to legend. Time and time again players come in and relate their experience of horrible matchups/rng right before they reach legend. These progress gates are built on frustration, they are there to get you to abandon your deck and craft a new one to make that final push. Players are now wise to this because when they switch deck their 'pocket meta' all of a sudden changes to the counters to the new deck they are running. And if you don't have all the cards, the matchmaker will repeatedly beat you with the cards you don't have to make you think you could meet your goal if you just crafted that card.
So you suggesting Blizzard has accurately built a RNG fixer to account for the psychology of every player to make sure they spend the maximum amount of money? Are you aware of how this can backfire, both if it gets proved by the vast databases of games and if a player simply leaves for another game instead of spending more like you believe happens?
We can agree that the current system is an utter mess, so you way off implying that they rig RNG in such a manner. You are giving them far too much credit!
I have experienced everything in my many years playing this game: breezing through rank floors, banging against a rank wall, tech cards working, tech cards failing, great win and losingstreaks, great metacalls, decks being outdated overnight... What matters is what I queue up with and how well I know how to beat my opponents deck. No signs of foul play from the RNG gods.
I have played poker semi-pro in the past and besides that I am quite knowledgeable on the statistics topic. RNG in HS is not rigged. There could exist bots which population grows during non-peak hours, but the RNG during the game is not rigged, just as the match making system (MMS) is not rigged. The MMS may look rigged to some exactly because of the MMR gains/drops, but it is not rigged. I have played enough games in HS and if there was something fishy I would be the first spamming the forums with it, trust me.
If any player with a median MMR can make legend by catching a hot streak at d3 (and lets be honest, the system is built so that anyone who puts in the games should achieve a minimum d5), then more players get to feel they are good at the game and are more likely to continue playing/buying cards. If your MMR was actually your rank, then most players would eventually see that their monthly results are very consistent. All the various manipulations from the matchmaker to the 'weighted' RNG are there to maximize player engagement, and obfuscate the players true skill level which is kept hidden.
The ranks also allow blizzard to utilize progress gates. The one that is most obvious is the one at D1 to legend. Time and time again players come in and relate their experience of horrible matchups/rng right before they reach legend. These progress gates are built on frustration, they are there to get you to abandon your deck and craft a new one to make that final push. Players are now wise to this because when they switch deck their 'pocket meta' all of a sudden changes to the counters to the new deck they are running. And if you don't have all the cards, the matchmaker will repeatedly beat you with the cards you don't have to make you think you could meet your goal if you just crafted that card.
So you suggesting Blizzard has accurately built a RNG fixer to account for the psychology of every player to make sure they spend the maximum amount of money? Are you aware of how this can backfire, both if it gets proved by the vast databases of games and if a player simply leaves for another game instead of spending more like you believe happens?
We can agree that the current system is an utter mess, so you way off implying that they rig RNG in such a manner. You are giving them far too much credit!
I have experienced everything in my many years playing this game: breezing through rank floors, banging against a rank wall, tech cards working, tech cards failing, great win and losingstreaks, great metacalls, decks being outdated overnight... What matters is what I queue up with and how well I know how to beat my opponents deck. No signs of foul play from the RNG gods.
Frustration plateaus are built into the vast majority of f2p models. You can dig into the various ways these games are monetized, but player engagement and progress gates are two of the fundamental engines that drive sales in these games.
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I just counted 10 (out of 10) legend players being matched with rank D5/4. It's day 3 of new Season and the ladder is full of people climbing so we can't expect to see many legend versus D5-, but when the player pool shrinks after people reach their goals that will happen. Legend ranks out of top 2k are matched with D5- players all the time (mid-late Season). Other people besides me on the forums confirm this.
Last month after I made it to Legend I was getting matched with either D1-D5 players or fellow legend players around my rank. As the month went by and since I didn't have any further aspirations like high legend, I started playing some 'meme' decks for fun and had a win rate around 40% over 100-120 games. My legend rank slowly dropped from 10'000 to below 30'000 and I was getting matched with either ~Platinum5 players or again legend players around my rank, but I didn't face a single D1-D5 player again. I don't think my MMR was so low though that ALL Diamond players had a higher MMR than me (and other legend players around my rank) so I am not sure how to interpret that
To me it sounds like the system works as intended. My interpretation is that there are very few players meming around with a low winrate at the rank floors in Diamond. They probably tryhard to climb further, as climbing from D5 to Legend is not that difficult, or just stop playing ranked (like I did last season.)
One of the weaknesses of the current system is that a lot of D5-D1 players would be a lot more motivated and confident knowing that their MMR is actually much higher than many Legend players. I entered in top 1k in Wild at a time when there were at least 8k people in legend.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
That's exactly the case.
Well I guess it is possible, one thing we don't know is how sensitive is the MMR, meaning how much does it change from a single win/loss, since before I started 'meming around' I had played twice as many games with my main deck and a solid ~60% WR
This depends on factors like your current MMR and population of players in each rank. I'd say for most players that aren't in the top legend rank the system is pretty sensitive during non-peak Seasonal times.
Thank you for putting this out there. It is very well written and you are right on the money.
The question then becomes why is it done this way. The answer is two fold. Player engagement and stimulating spending.
If any player with a median MMR can make legend by catching a hot streak at d3 (and lets be honest, the system is built so that anyone who puts in the games should achieve a minimum d5), then more players get to feel they are good at the game and are more likely to continue playing/buying cards. If your MMR was actually your rank, then most players would eventually see that their monthly results are very consistent. All the various manipulations from the matchmaker to the 'weighted' RNG are there to maximize player engagement, and obfuscate the players true skill level which is kept hidden.
The ranks also allow blizzard to utilize progress gates. The one that is most obvious is the one at D1 to legend. Time and time again players come in and relate their experience of horrible matchups/rng right before they reach legend. These progress gates are built on frustration, they are there to get you to abandon your deck and craft a new one to make that final push. Players are now wise to this because when they switch deck their 'pocket meta' all of a sudden changes to the counters to the new deck they are running. And if you don't have all the cards, the matchmaker will repeatedly beat you with the cards you don't have to make you think you could meet your goal if you just crafted that card.
So you will constantly see changes made to maximize player engagement and encourage spending. Providing a true/fair competitive environment that allows players to reach ranks based on skill alone is not a good business model as far as blizzard is concerned. This is not just blizzard, it is industry wide, so I am not trying to say go play something else, what I am saying is don't fall for the tactics.
I think you can see MMR through your legend rank and through the ranks of your opponents who reach legend. I tend to be between 3 and 500 in wild when I make legend and somewhere around 5k the past 2 seasons in standard by the end. This is pretty consistent with the people I friend after a game (I tend to play weird homebrews in wild so I get a lot of friend requests after the game). So it seems to be who the system thinks is a fair match for me.
I would like the idea of legend rank and ladder climbing being two completely different pools and leagues. Once a player gets legend rank then even when the month resets they start at legend rank again. It's more motivation to climb the ladder since in most cases the ladder climb is more about time invested than ranking. There can be a depreciation of the rank too. If you don't play any games for a month then you drop back down into the ladder rankings.
They just need to get rid of MMR. I only read threads like this now because I am hoping there is a groundswell to end MMR. They already had a matchmaking system, it’s called the ladder. Feeling like you are artificially being given “harder” opponents just because you are winning is beyond stupid. I have already quit Hearthstone and won’t return until they completely eliminate MMR
This could be done with an MMR-only ladder too, but they have to work more to make it happen:
- Live ladder website tracking and displaying all MMR ranks and the current MMR decay
- Special daily chain-quests for those not missing a day in the ladder
- Special hidden/secret gifts unlocked by reaching specific MMR-steps during the month
It's doable. The problem is they don't invest in the game, they just milk the cards and at some point the inevitable happens - the game dies. So they start milking HS2 and the cycle repeats...
Yeah I made legend and then was just playing with fun or meme decks - if you want to call that dumpster legend, then go ahead. As I no longer cared about winrate, I was soon getting matched against gold or even silver players! I didn’t dare friend any if I won - they’d rage against the machine if they lost to a legend player while trying to get from silver to gold!
There are lots of HS players - it’s not impossible to match up based on rank, even us dumpster legend types....
So you suggesting Blizzard has accurately built a RNG fixer to account for the psychology of every player to make sure they spend the maximum amount of money? Are you aware of how this can backfire, both if it gets proved by the vast databases of games and if a player simply leaves for another game instead of spending more like you believe happens?
We can agree that the current system is an utter mess, so you way off implying that they rig RNG in such a manner. You are giving them far too much credit!
I have experienced everything in my many years playing this game: breezing through rank floors, banging against a rank wall, tech cards working, tech cards failing, great win and losingstreaks, great metacalls, decks being outdated overnight... What matters is what I queue up with and how well I know how to beat my opponents deck. No signs of foul play from the RNG gods.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
How do you know what your MMR is?
Afaik nobody has figured the formula yet, but your legend rank by MMR alone and always was, so that is a good relative indicator at least.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I have played poker semi-pro in the past and besides that I am quite knowledgeable on the statistics topic. RNG in HS is not rigged. There could exist bots which population grows during non-peak hours, but the RNG during the game is not rigged, just as the match making system (MMS) is not rigged. The MMS may look rigged to some exactly because of the MMR gains/drops, but it is not rigged. I have played enough games in HS and if there was something fishy I would be the first spamming the forums with it, trust me.
It need not be very complex. It can be very simple. Blizzard has all the data of which decks beat which decks, and further, which card orders result in one side winning. When a player is about to go to legend, they get the bad matchup/ bad card order. Bonus points if they lose to a card specifically as per their patent (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/307784/Activision_patents_matchmaking_tech_that_can_push_players_to_buy_upgrades.php#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20filing%2C%20Activision,to%20influence%20game%2Drelated%20purchases.)
Frustration plateaus are built into the vast majority of f2p models. You can dig into the various ways these games are monetized, but player engagement and progress gates are two of the fundamental engines that drive sales in these games.