I truly appreciate how fast Team 5 is addressing HS balancing, but I really think the game is still one nerf patch away from being in a great spot. The point of this thread is not to rant, but to discuss what cards still need adjusting and how to balance them My opinions are based on the games i've played over the past few days at standard legend rank.
Altruis the Outcast: Altruis feels unfair for the same reason pre-nerf Blade Flurry was unfair: board clear effects that deal huge dmg only to enemies should never be a thing, EVER. Increasing the mana cost is the worst approach, as it will either make no difference (it really didnt) or make it unplayable.
Suggestions: Either make the dmg hit only enemy MINIONS, or make it hit EVERYONE ELSE but itself. That way, the DH cant develop a board and risks putting himself at lethal range. It would still be a great comeback mechanic, but fair.
Priestess of Fury: That is nothing wrong with a 7-drop having a powerful static effect, so long as it pays a fair stat cost to compensate it. To that, this card said LOL NOPE while showing both middlefingers, very overtuned. It is unfairly hard for most classes to remove a 6/7 minion that just rekt the board and must be killed on sight, specially when DH can play it on turn 5 after Raging Felscreamer.
Suggestions: The stat cost must be paid! The question is, how much? I think making it a 6/5 or 7/4 would be fair. Would like to see your opinions on this one.
Blackjack Stunner: I'm failing to understand what was the thought proccess behind this card. Why does it increase the sapped target's cost? THAT'S INSANE! Did they think making it a Sap on a 1-mana minion wasnt strong enough, so they had to make it a Freezing Trap?? I honestly don't get it. This card is so oppressive it completely prevents any high cost minion with no imediate impact from ever being played on ladder, thats a huge meta rule for one card alone to dictate.
Suggestion: The cost increase has to be removed, there's no other way. A Sap on an 1-mana minion would still be very strong, but bearable. If this card isnt nerfed soon, we can safely dust every single 7+ mana minion with no battlecry/end of turn effect in our collection, as those will certainly not see any play for the next two years.
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: This card was fine last year, as it was the only "Hail Mary" play available to Mage in standard. Now Mage has The Amazing Reno, Evocation and Solarian Prime, and suddenly there's so much RNG fiesta available it pretty much became the entire class main win condition. Any match that includes Mage nowadays doesnt feel like a real game of HS, just a way for casino junkies with no money left to get their fix. The opponent player's decisions don't matter much when the class loses to no one but itself.
Suggestions: I think the box should go to Hall of Fame. It is fine by itself, but when you account all the other RNG fiesta in Mages toolkit, it becomes too much. Even with the box gone, casino junkies everywhere will still enjoy playing Mage, but most lists would be encouraged to run more down to earth, skill based win conditions such as burn damage or secret sinergy.
Do you agree with these suggestions? Do you think the game doesnt need any more nerfs? Are there other busted cards that should be addressed? Feel free to discuss, just keep it civil :)
they said they won't be nerfing things anytime soon
also nobody cares about your legend rank, everyone's legend this month this is a joke
I only mentioned legend because the meta is different depending on what part of ladder you're playing. You dont see Mages at Diamond 5-1 cuz the bottleneck is nothing but DH, for example.
Its not about whether they will, but about whether they should. You think the game is fine right now?
I truly appreciate how fast Team 5 is addressing HS balancing, but I really think the game is still one nerf patch away from being in a great spot. The point of this thread is not to rant, but to discuss what cards still need adjusting and how to balance them My opinions are based on the games i've played over the past few days at standard legend rank.
Altruis the Outcast: Altruis feels unfair for the same reason pre-nerf Blade Flurry was unfair: board clear effects that deal huge dmg only to enemies should never be a thing, EVER. Increasing the mana cost is the worst approach, as it will either make no difference (it really didnt) or make it unplayable.
Suggestions: Either make the dmg hit only enemy MINIONS, or make it hit EVERYONE ELSE but itself. That way, the DH cant develop a board and risks putting himself at lethal range. It would still be a great comeback mechanic, but fair.
Priestess of Fury: That is nothing wrong with a 7-drop having a powerful static effect, so long as it pays a fair stat cost to compensate it. To that, this card said LOL NOPE while showing both middlefingers, very overtuned. It is unfairly hard for any class to remove a 6/7 minion that just rekt the board and must be killed on sight, specially when DH can play it on turn 5 after Raging Felscreamer.
Suggestions: The stat cost must be paid! The question is, how much? I think making it a 6/5 or 7/4 would be fair. Would like to see your opinions on this one.
Blackjack Stunner: I'm failing to understand what was the thought proccess behind this card. Why does it increase the sapped target's cost? THAT'S INSANE! Were they afraid it'd be used on friendly minions like a cheaper Youthful Brewmaster? I honestly don't get it. This card is so oppressive it completely prevents any high cost minion with no imediate impact from ever being played on ladder, thats a huge meta rule for one card alone to dictate.
Suggestion: The cost increase has to be removed, there's no other way. A Sap on an 1-mana minion is still very strong, but bearable. If this card isnt nerfed soon, we can safely dust every single 7+ mana minion with no battlecry/end of turn effect in our collection, as those will certainly not see any play for the next two years.
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: This card was fine last year, as it was the only "Hail Mary" play available to Mage in standard. Now Mage has The Amazing Reno, Evocation and Solarian Prime, and suddenly there's so much RNG fiesta available it pretty much became the entire class main win condition. Any match that includes Mage nowadays doesnt feel like a real game of HS, just a way for casino junkies with no money left to get their fix. The opponent player's decisions don't matter much when the class loses to no one but itself.
Suggestions: I think the box should go to Hall of Fame. RNG is important for balance, but it cant become a viable win condition by itself. Even with the box gone, casino junkies everywhere will still enjoy playing Mage, but most lists would be encouraged to run more down to earth, skill based win conditions such as burn damage or secret sinergy.
Do you agree with these suggestions? Do you think the game doesnt need any more nerfs? Are there other busted cards that should be addressed? Feel free to discuss, just keep it civil :)
I agree on Altruis, but he is not the problem by himself, the number of low cost Outcast cards that DH can generate is. I would be much happier with a "every time you play an Outcast card that costs mana" restriction. Harming your own minions wouldnt be a big deal if you just dont play any. Hurting the DH face doesnt matter because they can just smash your face for 10 damage plus the 8 they just did with Altruis. And if it only hits your minions then it's just a second Kayn basically. There needs to be a cap on how much damage he can do.
Priestess I don't find that big of a deal. It's a little strong but I don't really have a problem with it. I'd be fine with nerfing it to 6/6 deal 6 which also is nice demon flavor tbh
Blackjack Stunner is not that big of a deal. It's basically the only semi-hard removal rogue has, and it can only be used when a secret is on the board. From climbing with rogue, I only get a chance to use it in about 50% of my games. I'd be fine with it being 2 mana though. Maybe 3 mana if they made it a 2/3. If you can't deal with maybe 2 of your big minions being removed, what are you doing against Polymorph or Hex or hell, Reno hero?
As for Yoggbox, Mage is 7/10 in winrate right now, and the played winrate of yoggbox is basically breaking even with the deck winrate. It's a non issue.
Blackjack Stunner isn't a 1 mana Sap, its a 3 mana sap since you have to play a secret to begin with to use it, so if you dont play cards to generate random spells from other classes(other then Shadowjeweler Hanar since if you playing stunner, you're probably playing this card) its a 3 mana max, but if you are playing those cards, its a at lowest a 2 mana Sap
People would lose their shit if Puzzle Box is touched, you underestimate the number of people that play a random green card every turn without any thought to get carried by Puzzle Box later in the game.
Galakrond the Nightmare: 0 mana cards is just absurd in rogue... My suggestion make alike Skull Of Guldan... reduce the cost by 3 and still be completely playable and wouldn't kill it.
Heistbaron Toggwaggle: Should need at least 2 lackeys. It's too easy to have a lackey on board on turn 6/7
Zephrys, the Great: Do i seriously need to explain why? 2 mana: win the game or get back in the game... Make it 4 mana and all highlanders would still be playing it.
Dragonqueen Alexstraza: Another one that i need to explain why? Don't make the dragons 0 mana. Easy...
I truly appreciate how fast Team 5 is addressing HS balancing, but I really think the game is still one nerf patch away from being in a great spot. The point of this thread is not to rant, but to discuss what cards still need adjusting and how to balance them My opinions are based on the games i've played over the past few days at standard legend rank.
Altruis the Outcast: Altruis feels unfair for the same reason pre-nerf Blade Flurry was unfair: board clear effects that deal huge dmg only to enemies should never be a thing, EVER. Increasing the mana cost is the worst approach, as it will either make no difference (it really didnt) or make it unplayable.
Suggestions: Either make the dmg hit only enemy MINIONS, or make it hit EVERYONE ELSE but itself. That way, the DH cant develop a board and risks putting himself at lethal range. It would still be a great comeback mechanic, but fair.
Priestess of Fury: That is nothing wrong with a 7-drop having a powerful static effect, so long as it pays a fair stat cost to compensate it. To that, this card said LOL NOPE while showing both middlefingers, very overtuned. It is unfairly hard for any class to remove a 6/7 minion that just rekt the board and must be killed on sight, specially when DH can play it on turn 5 after Raging Felscreamer.
Suggestions: The stat cost must be paid! The question is, how much? I think making it a 6/5 or 7/4 would be fair. Would like to see your opinions on this one.
Blackjack Stunner: I'm failing to understand what was the thought proccess behind this card. Why does it increase the sapped target's cost? THAT'S INSANE! Were they afraid it'd be used on friendly minions like a cheaper Youthful Brewmaster? I honestly don't get it. This card is so oppressive it completely prevents any high cost minion with no imediate impact from ever being played on ladder, thats a huge meta rule for one card alone to dictate.
Suggestion: The cost increase has to be removed, there's no other way. A Sap on an 1-mana minion is still very strong, but bearable. If this card isnt nerfed soon, we can safely dust every single 7+ mana minion with no battlecry/end of turn effect in our collection, as those will certainly not see any play for the next two years.
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: This card was fine last year, as it was the only "Hail Mary" play available to Mage in standard. Now Mage has The Amazing Reno, Evocation and Solarian Prime, and suddenly there's so much RNG fiesta available it pretty much became the entire class main win condition. Any match that includes Mage nowadays doesnt feel like a real game of HS, just a way for casino junkies with no money left to get their fix. The opponent player's decisions don't matter much when the class loses to no one but itself.
Suggestions: I think the box should go to Hall of Fame. RNG is important for balance, but it cant become a viable win condition by itself. Even with the box gone, casino junkies everywhere will still enjoy playing Mage, but most lists would be encouraged to run more down to earth, skill based win conditions such as burn damage or secret sinergy.
Do you agree with these suggestions? Do you think the game doesnt need any more nerfs? Are there other busted cards that should be addressed? Feel free to discuss, just keep it civil :)
I agree on Altruis, but he is not the problem by himself, the number of low cost Outcast cards that DH can generate is. I would be much happier with a "every time you play an Outcast card that costs mana" restriction. Harming your own minions wouldnt be a big deal if you just dont play any. Hurting the DH face doesnt matter because they can just smash your face for 10 damage plus the 8 they just did with Altruis. And if it only hits your minions then it's just a second Kayn basically. There needs to be a cap on how much damage he can do.
Priestess I don't find that big of a deal. It's a little strong but I don't really have a problem with it. I'd be fine with nerfing it to 6/6 deal 6 which also is nice demon flavor tbh
Blackjack Stunner is not that big of a deal. It's basically the only semi-hard removal rogue has, and it can only be used when a secret is on the board. From climbing with rogue, I only get a chance to use it in about 50% of my games. I'd be fine with it being 2 mana though. Maybe 3 mana if they made it a 2/3. If you can't deal with maybe 2 of your big minions being removed, what are you doing against Polymorph or Hex or hell, Reno hero?
As for Yoggbox, Mage is 7/10 in winrate right now, and the played winrate of yoggbox is basically breaking even with the deck winrate. It's a non issue.
Its easier to change one card than an entire class toolkit, DH is meant have a lot of cycling cheap stuff, its part of the class identity. What do you mean putting a cap on Altruis effect? How would that work? Im curious.
I like Priestess, but its clearly a very forced card. It could easily have 4 health and it would still be played, I believe. Also, dont forget it can be played on turn 5, that happens more often than it should.
The problem with Stunner is the class it was given to, Rogue. Rogue can shadowstep it, so it has 04 potential uses, and worse, Rogue used to have a clear weakness to spell immune minions.. not anymore. I think covering class weaknesses is a huge mistake, those are an essential part of class identity.
The box by itself is fine, the issue is the unhealthy amount of RNG fiesta played in every Mage deck, it doesnt feel like my decisions matter when I play against Mage. Dont you feel the same? How would you go about it?
Blackjack Stunner isn't a 1 mana Sap, its a 3 mana sap since you have to play a secret to begin with to use it, so if you dont play cards to generate random spells from other classes(other then Shadowjeweler Hanar since if you playing stunner, you're probably playing this card) its a 3 mana max, but if you are playing those cards, its a at lowest a 2 mana Sap
card is fine where it is, and doesn't need a nerf
You misunderstood me, making it a 1-mana Sap was my suggestion. The card right now is a 1-mana proactive Freezing Trap, which is much, much stronger. The fact its a minion means a lot, as it can be shadowstepped and used up to 03 times on the same turn, i've seen that happening a lot. As you said, making it only cast Sap would be fine since it has the secret requirement, but Freezing Trap? No sir, thats broken.
Blackjack Stunner isn't a 1 mana Sap, its a 3 mana sap since you have to play a secret to begin with to use it, so if you dont play cards to generate random spells from other classes(other then Shadowjeweler Hanar since if you playing stunner, you're probably playing this card) its a 3 mana max, but if you are playing those cards, its a at lowest a 2 mana Sap
card is fine where it is, and doesn't need a nerf
I agree the card is fine... But, if you're going to count the secret cost, then it's a 3 mana Sap+Freezing Trap+Transform the next attacked friendly minion into one that costs 3 more on a 1/2 body... People have been saying Sap is broken for years, so...
It's a card that's been called "broken" for years costing 1 more, and having 4 more mana worth of other spell effects (Freezing Trap + Explosive Evolution) on a body... So, seperately, it would cost 5 mana, plus the 2 mana advantage of Sap being able to target a minion.
Three mana, two cards to cast freezing trap on a minion is fine. It isn’t 1 mana freezing trap. At best, it’s a three mana freezing trap that requires you to have a secret in hand. If it’s so oppressive, why is Big Druid tier two? That deck is almost all giant minions and ramp, but it sees play even with Stunner in the meta. It’s entirely possible it’ll need a nerf in the future, because they’re gonna keep adding secret support this year, but I’d definitely doesn’t need a nerf now.
Galakrond the Nightmare: 0 mana cards is just absurd in rogue... My suggestion make alike Skull Of Guldan... reduce the cost by 3 and still be completely playable and wouldn't kill it.
Heistbaron Toggwaggle: Should need at least 2 lackeys. It's too easy to have a lackey on board on turn 6/7
Zephrys, the Great: Do i seriously need to explain why? 2 mana: win the game or get back in the game... Make it 4 mana and all highlanders would still be playing it.
Dragonqueen Alexstraza: Another one that i need to explain why? Don't make the dragons 0 mana. Easy...
What makes Skull borderline OP is how easy the requirement to get the discount is, just play it when its the right or left most card in your hand. Galakrond, on the other hand, requires an entire deck built around it, with many cards needed to enable it, it deserves a more powerful reward than Skull. And still, between the two cards, which do you think people would pick for Rogue if they could? Skull 100% of the time, no doubt. That shits illegal dude haha.
The 2 lackey nerf to Heisbaron seems fair, I agree with you.
Zephrys has been plagued with spaghetti code since the expansion launch, many people are complaining about it not giving the right options. but even if it did, cards with deckbuilding restrictions should have very powerful effects, same for Dragonqueen.
Three mana, two cards to cast freezing trap on a minion is fine. It isn’t 1 mana freezing trap. At best, it’s a three mana freezing trap that requires you to have a secret in hand. If it’s so oppressive, why is Big Druid tier two? That deck is almost all giant minions and ramp, but it sees play even with Stunner in the meta. It’s entirely possible it’ll need a nerf in the future, because they’re gonna keep adding secret support this year, but I’d definitely doesn’t need a nerf now.
What rank are you playing? I havent seen a single Big Druid since the last nerfs bro. That archetype is 100% dead at legend because Rogue reigns supreme, Stunner turned what was supposed to be a horrible matchup into a free win.
Alright, lets take into account the secret requirement (I didnt mention it because I feel its too easy to fulfill, but ok).. Its still an aggressive Freezing Trap that can be used multiple times with shadowstep. Mana cost/benefit is the most important factor when evaluating a card, sending minions back to hand costing 02 more mana can very often make them not worth playing again, even if they have a battlecry/end of turn effect.
They could completely remove the mana cost increase and this minion would STILL be better than Sap, because of the shadowstep sinergy and being able to target spell immune minions, thats how broken this card is.
Again... if you're going to count the cost of the secret, you have to count the effect of the secret... A targetable Freezing Trap + Draw 2 cards, summon a 2/3 poison, or evolve by 3 on a 1/2 body.
Freezing Trap can be avoided.
The card is like 7 mana worth of spells on a 1 cost body... Stop trying to justify it like this.
It's okay on it's own, only because Rogue has crappy secrets... But, when you combine it with Shadowjewler/Shadowstep on turn 10, it can get pretty bonkers... It takes setup, and that's the purpose of a combo deck... It's supposed to beat Druid and Priest.
Altruis wouldn't be so bad if Consume Magic, Skull of Gul'dan and the 2/1 card draw card weren't a thing. It's the ability to cycle WHILE playing into Altruis that I think is too strong.
I don't think they can further nerf Altruis without just making him blah.
Priestess of Fury drives me nuts when I'm playing anything but priest. The board impact and the statline is just way too good IMO.
Altruis wouldn't be so bad if Consume Magic, Skull of Gul'dan and the 2/1 card draw card weren't a thing. It's the ability to cycle WHILE playing into Altruis that I think is too strong.
I don't think they can further nerf Altruis without just making him blah.
Priestess of Fury drives me nuts when I'm playing anything but priest. The board impact and the statline is just way too good IMO.
Efficient cycling is part of DH class identity, that is not going away anytime soon, im afraid. I agree Altruis is hard to balance, assymetric board clears that deal huge face dmg are broken on principle. Still it cant be left the way it is now, there HAS to be a downside to it somehow. If not just make it blah, DH can certainly succeeded w/o it. Heavy contender for worst design in HS history.
Altruis the Outcast - After you play the left- or right-most card in your hand, deal 1 damage to all enemy minions.
Priestess of Fury - 1) 9 mana 7/7. At the end of your turn, deal 7 damage randomly split among all enemies. 2) At the startof your turn, deal 6 damage randomly split among all enemies. 3) 7 mana 7/7. At the end of your turn, deal 7 damage randomly split among all enemies. Can't attack
Blackjack Stunner - Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner's hand. It costs (2) more for 2 turns.
Skull of Gul'dan - Draw 3 cards. Outcast: Draw 2 cards instead. Reduce their Cost by (3).
Efficient cycling is part of DH class identity, that is not going away anytime soon
They could have significantly less efficient cycling and still have good cycling. Consume Magic could be a two mana card and still be really good. Skull of Gul'dan could give a 1 mana reduction and still be really strong, albeit much more situational.
Altruis only dealing damage to minions would make it SUCH an underwhelming card. I know this is a popular suggestion, but it's a really meh one.
Galakrond the Nightmare: 0 mana cards is just absurd in rogue... My suggestion make alike Skull Of Guldan... reduce the cost by 3 and still be completely playable and wouldn't kill it.
Heistbaron Toggwaggle: Should need at least 2 lackeys. It's too easy to have a lackey on board on turn 6/7
Zephrys, the Great: Do i seriously need to explain why? 2 mana: win the game or get back in the game... Make it 4 mana and all highlanders would still be playing it.
Dragonqueen Alexstraza: Another one that i need to explain why? Don't make the dragons 0 mana. Easy...
What makes Skull borderline OP is how easy the requirement to get the discount is, just play it when its the right or left most card in your hand. Galakrond, on the other hand, requires an entire deck built around it, with many cards needed to enable it, it deserves a more powerful reward than Skull. And still, between the two cards, which do you think people would pick for Rogue if they could? Skull 100% of the time, no doubt. That shits illegal dude haha.
The 2 lackey nerf to Heisbaron seems fair, I agree with you.
This Galakrond deckbuilding restriction argument drives me crazy every time I read it, Warlock players do the same to justify the ridiculous low cost of Plague of Flames. It's not a damn "restriction" when the condition is actually beneficial to you. I've seen Rogue lists running the early game Gala package and Heistbaron without actually running the Galakrond hero card, that's how good the package is for Rogue. You can basically read the "invoke to upgrade" text as "if you effectively played Hearthstone in the last 5 minutes". Of course Rogues would also run Skull if they could, probably not in the same archetype, it's simply a strong card, doesn't mean that Gala is weaker in comparison. For 1 more mana over Skull and no Outcast restriction you get an extra card, the cost reduced to 0 and not just -3, a 5/2 weapon AND 5 armor. Not to mention a better hero power for a class whose hero power lose effectiveness in the late game. And that's not accounting for Heistbaron drawing a 0-cost Gala. Saying the Galakrond is fine while Skull isn't is just... lol
My 2 cents on Skull: while it's true that the card is too strong when Outcasted, let's not forget it's garbage if non-Outcasted - paying 3 more mana over Arcane Intellect for an extra card is simply unplayable. DH haters disregard the Outcast condition like it's nothing, but the truth is that argument is valid only for tempo/aggro DH, which has an easy time emptying his hand by turn 6 or 7. Try to build a DH deck in any other archetype/style and see how easily Skull gets stuck in your hand between an Inner Demon and a 7+ drop every game. Further nerfs to Skull without taking this into consideration would simply kill the card (and the class). Or, even worse as far as I'm concerned, force the class to be exclusively an aggro class forever (and I even like aggro decks mind you. I'd just prefer more variety).
Skull should go back to his old 5 mana cost while nerfing the Outcast discounts at least by 1, maybe even by 2 if it's still to strong. Maybe also add a condition that the costs can't go lower than 1. This way, Skull would still be playable in possible future slower midrange/control/combo DH archetypes: a smaller mana discount on bigger cards would still be significant, and playing it non-Outcast wouldn't feel terrible. While aggro would take a huge hit, sure it could draw a turn sooner but the Altruis combos would be WAY less ridiculous - this also solve the Altruis issue, no need to even touch him if you don't have easy access to a bunch of 0 cost cards anymore.
I truly appreciate how fast Team 5 is addressing HS balancing, but I really think the game is still one nerf patch away from being in a great spot. The point of this thread is not to rant, but to discuss what cards still need adjusting and how to balance them My opinions are based on the games i've played over the past few days at standard legend rank.
Altruis the Outcast: Altruis feels unfair for the same reason pre-nerf Blade Flurry was unfair: board clear effects that deal huge dmg only to enemies should never be a thing, EVER. Increasing the mana cost is the worst approach, as it will either make no difference (it really didnt) or make it unplayable.
Suggestions: Either make the dmg hit only enemy MINIONS, or make it hit EVERYONE ELSE but itself. That way, the DH cant develop a board and risks putting himself at lethal range. It would still be a great comeback mechanic, but fair.
Priestess of Fury: That is nothing wrong with a 7-drop having a powerful static effect, so long as it pays a fair stat cost to compensate it. To that, this card said LOL NOPE while showing both middlefingers, very overtuned. It is unfairly hard for most classes to remove a 6/7 minion that just rekt the board and must be killed on sight, specially when DH can play it on turn 5 after Raging Felscreamer.
Suggestions: The stat cost must be paid! The question is, how much? I think making it a 6/5 or 7/4 would be fair. Would like to see your opinions on this one.
Blackjack Stunner: I'm failing to understand what was the thought proccess behind this card. Why does it increase the sapped target's cost? THAT'S INSANE! Did they think making it a Sap on a 1-mana minion wasnt strong enough, so they had to make it a Freezing Trap?? I honestly don't get it. This card is so oppressive it completely prevents any high cost minion with no imediate impact from ever being played on ladder, thats a huge meta rule for one card alone to dictate.
Suggestion: The cost increase has to be removed, there's no other way. A Sap on an 1-mana minion would still be very strong, but bearable. If this card isnt nerfed soon, we can safely dust every single 7+ mana minion with no battlecry/end of turn effect in our collection, as those will certainly not see any play for the next two years.
Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: This card was fine last year, as it was the only "Hail Mary" play available to Mage in standard. Now Mage has The Amazing Reno, Evocation and Solarian Prime, and suddenly there's so much RNG fiesta available it pretty much became the entire class main win condition. Any match that includes Mage nowadays doesnt feel like a real game of HS, just a way for casino junkies with no money left to get their fix. The opponent player's decisions don't matter much when the class loses to no one but itself.
Suggestions: I think the box should go to Hall of Fame. It is fine by itself, but when you account all the other RNG fiesta in Mages toolkit, it becomes too much. Even with the box gone, casino junkies everywhere will still enjoy playing Mage, but most lists would be encouraged to run more down to earth, skill based win conditions such as burn damage or secret sinergy.
Do you agree with these suggestions? Do you think the game doesnt need any more nerfs? Are there other busted cards that should be addressed? Feel free to discuss, just keep it civil :)
they said they won't be nerfing things anytime soon
also nobody cares about your legend rank, everyone's legend this month this is a joke
I only mentioned legend because the meta is different depending on what part of ladder you're playing. You dont see Mages at Diamond 5-1 cuz the bottleneck is nothing but DH, for example.
Its not about whether they will, but about whether they should. You think the game is fine right now?
I agree on Altruis, but he is not the problem by himself, the number of low cost Outcast cards that DH can generate is. I would be much happier with a "every time you play an Outcast card that costs mana" restriction. Harming your own minions wouldnt be a big deal if you just dont play any. Hurting the DH face doesnt matter because they can just smash your face for 10 damage plus the 8 they just did with Altruis. And if it only hits your minions then it's just a second Kayn basically. There needs to be a cap on how much damage he can do.
Priestess I don't find that big of a deal. It's a little strong but I don't really have a problem with it. I'd be fine with nerfing it to 6/6 deal 6 which also is nice demon flavor tbh
Blackjack Stunner is not that big of a deal. It's basically the only semi-hard removal rogue has, and it can only be used when a secret is on the board. From climbing with rogue, I only get a chance to use it in about 50% of my games. I'd be fine with it being 2 mana though. Maybe 3 mana if they made it a 2/3. If you can't deal with maybe 2 of your big minions being removed, what are you doing against Polymorph or Hex or hell, Reno hero?
As for Yoggbox, Mage is 7/10 in winrate right now, and the played winrate of yoggbox is basically breaking even with the deck winrate. It's a non issue.
The only change I'd want to Blackjack Stunner is to cap the cost of the returned minion to 10.
Blackjack Stunner isn't a 1 mana Sap, its a 3 mana sap since you have to play a secret to begin with to use it, so if you dont play cards to generate random spells from other classes(other then Shadowjeweler Hanar since if you playing stunner, you're probably playing this card) its a 3 mana max, but if you are playing those cards, its a at lowest a 2 mana Sap
card is fine where it is, and doesn't need a nerf
𝔅𝔶 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔢𝔩𝔢𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔰 𝔠𝔬𝔪𝔟𝔦𝔫𝔢𝔡!
People would lose their shit if Puzzle Box is touched, you underestimate the number of people that play a random green card every turn without any thought to get carried by Puzzle Box later in the game.
Here's my suggestion :
Galakrond the Nightmare: 0 mana cards is just absurd in rogue... My suggestion make alike Skull Of Guldan... reduce the cost by 3 and still be completely playable and wouldn't kill it.
Heistbaron Toggwaggle: Should need at least 2 lackeys. It's too easy to have a lackey on board on turn 6/7
Zephrys, the Great: Do i seriously need to explain why? 2 mana: win the game or get back in the game... Make it 4 mana and all highlanders would still be playing it.
Dragonqueen Alexstraza: Another one that i need to explain why? Don't make the dragons 0 mana. Easy...
Its easier to change one card than an entire class toolkit, DH is meant have a lot of cycling cheap stuff, its part of the class identity. What do you mean putting a cap on Altruis effect? How would that work? Im curious.
I like Priestess, but its clearly a very forced card. It could easily have 4 health and it would still be played, I believe. Also, dont forget it can be played on turn 5, that happens more often than it should.
The problem with Stunner is the class it was given to, Rogue. Rogue can shadowstep it, so it has 04 potential uses, and worse, Rogue used to have a clear weakness to spell immune minions.. not anymore. I think covering class weaknesses is a huge mistake, those are an essential part of class identity.
The box by itself is fine, the issue is the unhealthy amount of RNG fiesta played in every Mage deck, it doesnt feel like my decisions matter when I play against Mage. Dont you feel the same? How would you go about it?
Thanks for the feedback!
You misunderstood me, making it a 1-mana Sap was my suggestion. The card right now is a 1-mana proactive Freezing Trap, which is much, much stronger. The fact its a minion means a lot, as it can be shadowstepped and used up to 03 times on the same turn, i've seen that happening a lot. As you said, making it only cast Sap would be fine since it has the secret requirement, but Freezing Trap? No sir, thats broken.
I agree the card is fine... But, if you're going to count the secret cost, then it's a 3 mana Sap+Freezing Trap+Transform the next attacked friendly minion into one that costs 3 more on a 1/2 body... People have been saying Sap is broken for years, so...
It's a card that's been called "broken" for years costing 1 more, and having 4 more mana worth of other spell effects (Freezing Trap + Explosive Evolution) on a body... So, seperately, it would cost 5 mana, plus the 2 mana advantage of Sap being able to target a minion.
Not a good argument for the card being "fine"
Three mana, two cards to cast freezing trap on a minion is fine. It isn’t 1 mana freezing trap. At best, it’s a three mana freezing trap that requires you to have a secret in hand. If it’s so oppressive, why is Big Druid tier two? That deck is almost all giant minions and ramp, but it sees play even with Stunner in the meta. It’s entirely possible it’ll need a nerf in the future, because they’re gonna keep adding secret support this year, but I’d definitely doesn’t need a nerf now.
What makes Skull borderline OP is how easy the requirement to get the discount is, just play it when its the right or left most card in your hand. Galakrond, on the other hand, requires an entire deck built around it, with many cards needed to enable it, it deserves a more powerful reward than Skull. And still, between the two cards, which do you think people would pick for Rogue if they could? Skull 100% of the time, no doubt. That shits illegal dude haha.
The 2 lackey nerf to Heisbaron seems fair, I agree with you.
Zephrys has been plagued with spaghetti code since the expansion launch, many people are complaining about it not giving the right options. but even if it did, cards with deckbuilding restrictions should have very powerful effects, same for Dragonqueen.
What rank are you playing? I havent seen a single Big Druid since the last nerfs bro. That archetype is 100% dead at legend because Rogue reigns supreme, Stunner turned what was supposed to be a horrible matchup into a free win.
Alright, lets take into account the secret requirement (I didnt mention it because I feel its too easy to fulfill, but ok).. Its still an aggressive Freezing Trap that can be used multiple times with shadowstep. Mana cost/benefit is the most important factor when evaluating a card, sending minions back to hand costing 02 more mana can very often make them not worth playing again, even if they have a battlecry/end of turn effect.
They could completely remove the mana cost increase and this minion would STILL be better than Sap, because of the shadowstep sinergy and being able to target spell immune minions, thats how broken this card is.
Again... if you're going to count the cost of the secret, you have to count the effect of the secret... A targetable Freezing Trap + Draw 2 cards, summon a 2/3 poison, or evolve by 3 on a 1/2 body.
Freezing Trap can be avoided.
The card is like 7 mana worth of spells on a 1 cost body... Stop trying to justify it like this.
It's okay on it's own, only because Rogue has crappy secrets... But, when you combine it with Shadowjewler/Shadowstep on turn 10, it can get pretty bonkers... It takes setup, and that's the purpose of a combo deck... It's supposed to beat Druid and Priest.
Altruis wouldn't be so bad if Consume Magic, Skull of Gul'dan and the 2/1 card draw card weren't a thing. It's the ability to cycle WHILE playing into Altruis that I think is too strong.
I don't think they can further nerf Altruis without just making him blah.
Priestess of Fury drives me nuts when I'm playing anything but priest. The board impact and the statline is just way too good IMO.
Efficient cycling is part of DH class identity, that is not going away anytime soon, im afraid. I agree Altruis is hard to balance, assymetric board clears that deal huge face dmg are broken on principle. Still it cant be left the way it is now, there HAS to be a downside to it somehow. If not just make it blah, DH can certainly succeeded w/o it. Heavy contender for worst design in HS history.
Nerfs we deserve (IMO), but nerfs we won't get:
Altruis the Outcast - After you play the left- or right-most card in your hand, deal 1 damage to all enemy minions.
Priestess of Fury -
1) 9 mana 7/7. At the end of your turn, deal 7 damage randomly split among all enemies.
2) At the start of your turn, deal 6 damage randomly split among all enemies.
3) 7 mana 7/7. At the end of your turn, deal 7 damage randomly split among all enemies. Can't attack
Blackjack Stunner - Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner's hand. It costs (2) more for 2 turns.
Skull of Gul'dan - Draw 3 cards. Outcast: Draw 2 cards instead. Reduce their Cost by (3).
Galakrond, Azeroth's End (all 5) - Claw can't attack heroes
Alexstrasza - Battlecry: At the end of your turn Set a hero's remaining Health to 15.
Added:
Twin Slice - Give your hero +1 Attack this turn. At the end of your turn Add 'Second Slice' to your hand.
They could have significantly less efficient cycling and still have good cycling. Consume Magic could be a two mana card and still be really good. Skull of Gul'dan could give a 1 mana reduction and still be really strong, albeit much more situational.
Altruis only dealing damage to minions would make it SUCH an underwhelming card. I know this is a popular suggestion, but it's a really meh one.
This Galakrond deckbuilding restriction argument drives me crazy every time I read it, Warlock players do the same to justify the ridiculous low cost of Plague of Flames. It's not a damn "restriction" when the condition is actually beneficial to you. I've seen Rogue lists running the early game Gala package and Heistbaron without actually running the Galakrond hero card, that's how good the package is for Rogue. You can basically read the "invoke to upgrade" text as "if you effectively played Hearthstone in the last 5 minutes". Of course Rogues would also run Skull if they could, probably not in the same archetype, it's simply a strong card, doesn't mean that Gala is weaker in comparison. For 1 more mana over Skull and no Outcast restriction you get an extra card, the cost reduced to 0 and not just -3, a 5/2 weapon AND 5 armor. Not to mention a better hero power for a class whose hero power lose effectiveness in the late game. And that's not accounting for Heistbaron drawing a 0-cost Gala. Saying the Galakrond is fine while Skull isn't is just... lol
My 2 cents on Skull: while it's true that the card is too strong when Outcasted, let's not forget it's garbage if non-Outcasted - paying 3 more mana over Arcane Intellect for an extra card is simply unplayable. DH haters disregard the Outcast condition like it's nothing, but the truth is that argument is valid only for tempo/aggro DH, which has an easy time emptying his hand by turn 6 or 7. Try to build a DH deck in any other archetype/style and see how easily Skull gets stuck in your hand between an Inner Demon and a 7+ drop every game. Further nerfs to Skull without taking this into consideration would simply kill the card (and the class). Or, even worse as far as I'm concerned, force the class to be exclusively an aggro class forever (and I even like aggro decks mind you. I'd just prefer more variety).
Skull should go back to his old 5 mana cost while nerfing the Outcast discounts at least by 1, maybe even by 2 if it's still to strong. Maybe also add a condition that the costs can't go lower than 1. This way, Skull would still be playable in possible future slower midrange/control/combo DH archetypes: a smaller mana discount on bigger cards would still be significant, and playing it non-Outcast wouldn't feel terrible. While aggro would take a huge hit, sure it could draw a turn sooner but the Altruis combos would be WAY less ridiculous - this also solve the Altruis issue, no need to even touch him if you don't have easy access to a bunch of 0 cost cards anymore.