Shudder isn't inherently broken, it's the interaction between it, Gala, and to a lesser extent, the invoke cards. Regardless of the source of the problem, something needs to be done and I hope it's impactful enough to get me interested in ladder because right now it's all battlegrounds for me.
shaman have been dropping and dropping since the new xpack... its under 60% win rate now if there let it stay it will be at 55% in 1 week
the problem u don't seem to understand, is that shaman is at 55%, hunter is at 50%, meanwhile, most other classes hover around the mid 40s while priest is just dead.
The main reason Shaman's winrate has been dropping is because the players NOT playing Shaman are actively trying to counter it.
This. There are a number of things I am seeing far more of as of late. Small clears, and silence (likely to screw over tempo rogue). That being said even if this is the only reason for it dropping, that in and of itself is good argument for a nerf. When a deck is so strong you have to tech against it specifically or just accept a 80% loss rate against it then maybe it's too strong.
Then again if it CAN be countered then maybe a nerf is unnecessary. It could go either way.
What's funny is people on this forum actually defend it still. I've literally read "oh what shaman is finally good and that's a problem but you guys were fine with pirate warrior back in the day and such?" No, we weren't fine with that either, and people back then called for nerfs as well.
And then these classic people saying "my homebrew beats it 90% of the time." You have to love those un-backed facts.
The main reason Shaman's winrate has been dropping is because the players NOT playing Shaman are actively trying to counter it.
This. There are a number of things I am seeing far more of as of late. Small clears, and silence (likely to screw over tempo rogue). That being said even if this is the only reason for it dropping, that in and of itself is good argument for a nerf. When a deck is so strong you have to tech against it specifically or just accept a 80% loss rate against it then maybe it's too strong.
Then again if it CAN be countered then maybe a nerf is unnecessary. It could go either way.
I mean, that's the whole point of waiting for the meta to settle. One deck is strong, people build counters to it, it becomes less strong, people stop playing it as much because they stop winning as much.
The main reason Shaman's win percentage is dropping is because everybody is playing Shaman. Mathematically, every mirror match produces a 50% win rate.
That's the answer, modify the matching algorithm so shaman only pairs against shaman....problem fixed.
The main reason Shaman's winrate has been dropping is because the players NOT playing Shaman are actively trying to counter it.
This. There are a number of things I am seeing far more of as of late. Small clears, and silence (likely to screw over tempo rogue). That being said even if this is the only reason for it dropping, that in and of itself is good argument for a nerf. When a deck is so strong you have to tech against it specifically or just accept a 80% loss rate against it then maybe it's too strong.
Then again if it CAN be countered then maybe a nerf is unnecessary. It could go either way.
I mean, that's the whole point of waiting for the meta to settle. One deck is strong, people build counters to it, it becomes less strong, people stop playing it as much because they stop winning as much.
Yeah I do think the nerfs are a bit too soon. Though it seems like the HS team is eager to do whatever to get people playing again. I may be dead wrong on this but the general buzz around HS seems marketdly lower this year in general.
But I digress. I agree, point is either could be true but we don't know which way to lean yet cause the meta hasn't really settled.
shaman have been dropping and dropping since the new xpack... its under 60% win rate now if there let it stay it will be at 55% in 1 week
Even if that were true, 55% winrate is still way too high.
What are you talking about? There has been a 58-60%+ winrate deck every expansion for the history of hearthstone dude
Yes and no. Yes: at any given day in HS history, there was a deck indicating > 55% winrate on HsReplay. But No because those winrate numbers belay how disgustingly overpowered that deck is. Go to https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/346/galakrond-shaman#tab=matchups and look at those numbers. It's "only" 59% winrate average, but its > 50% on every archetype besides Holy Wrath Paladin and between 60-75% winrate on most. So many new and fun archetypes are just being annihilated by this stupid deck. Usually the decks that peak above 55% do so because they find an advantage against the most popular decks, and then other players find out and copy until it eventually pushes out the vulnerable decks. Here, though, EVERY deck (besides HW Pally) is vulnerable. That 55% number isn't the peak--it's the valley.
It's undeniable that Shaman's various cards are greatly overtuned in a way that's just not fun. Dragon's Pack is a Feral Spirit that trades overload for coming in 2 turns later, which meant literally nothing since Feral didn't see play, but it also gave +3/3 to the wolves just after 2 invoke. I'd have put it as +2/2 if they wanted to go that route. Mogu feels like a stronger corridor creeper in the way it punishes having minion and shaman even have the evolve synergy to back it up. HP+wasp is a fireball to the face that also put in a body. Quest is too easy for the minion type it interact. Mutate should've costed 1 minimum and evolve 2. Shudderwock is Shudderwock.
Shudderwock ain't the main problem, but too strong Battlecries are and this has been said few times. You can double Galakronds Battlecry with Quest as well and 7+2 mana armor+weapon+4x 8/8 rush is busted from any perspective.
You have option to get 4x 5/6 taunts and 3/3 with only 8 mana without any drawback and this might see some tweaking too.
Im not sure will Quest reward Hero Power change to "next battlecry" even be enough as it won't change anything with Galakrond. Will those taunts lose additional Att&HP as Overload seems bit too small change.
Hopefully they will announce the news soon as majority of HS community are waiting them.
Kibler was speaking in the heat of the moment A card that cannot be reliably drawn and depends on the use of all your other battlecries seeing play at 9 mana is fairly stated. Look at Tess Greymane
They're not comparable. You can't control what Tess plays, minion put on board are just bodies because battlecry won't activate, and the main power comes from spells which are usually reactive, and also it's way easier for Tess to be interrupted.
In the case of Shudderwock, you can definitely control what he plays, the battlecry can both be body generations, destruction effect, or value generation, and it won't end unless you goof up and play a hagatha elemental that destroy everything on board or plague of murloc the board beforehand.
Lol, seems not so long ago when Shaman was completely unplayable. Now all the sudden it went from Warriorstone to Shamanstone, and people want to kill the class completely.
While this round of nerfs is definitely warranted. I find most calls for nerfs come from folks that are butt hurt the deck they love running and winning with becomes a complete loser.
Guaranteed. Soon after the Shaman nerf hits. There will be a new call for nerfs to the next deck that takes over the ladder by a fresh crop of butt hurt players. It never ends.
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Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
Balanced card. Let's add it to battlegrounds.
Occasionally gives helpful advice.
This entire expansion is garbage. Most games are not fun. The power level is out of control.
Shudder isn't inherently broken, it's the interaction between it, Gala, and to a lesser extent, the invoke cards. Regardless of the source of the problem, something needs to be done and I hope it's impactful enough to get me interested in ladder because right now it's all battlegrounds for me.
I doubt they would HoF it when it's rotating out in a few months anyway.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
the problem u don't seem to understand, is that shaman is at 55%, hunter is at 50%, meanwhile, most other classes hover around the mid 40s while priest is just dead.
the game has to be at least somewhat balanced
The main reason Shaman's winrate has been dropping is because the players NOT playing Shaman are actively trying to counter it.
This. There are a number of things I am seeing far more of as of late. Small clears, and silence (likely to screw over tempo rogue). That being said even if this is the only reason for it dropping, that in and of itself is good argument for a nerf. When a deck is so strong you have to tech against it specifically or just accept a 80% loss rate against it then maybe it's too strong.
Then again if it CAN be countered then maybe a nerf is unnecessary. It could go either way.
LMAO
"shaman is not that strong guyzzzz"
What are you talking about? There has been a 58-60%+ winrate deck every expansion for the history of hearthstone dude
I mean, that's the whole point of waiting for the meta to settle. One deck is strong, people build counters to it, it becomes less strong, people stop playing it as much because they stop winning as much.
The main reason Shaman's win percentage is dropping is because everybody is playing Shaman. Mathematically, every mirror match produces a 50% win rate.
That's the answer, modify the matching algorithm so shaman only pairs against shaman....problem fixed.
Yeah I do think the nerfs are a bit too soon. Though it seems like the HS team is eager to do whatever to get people playing again. I may be dead wrong on this but the general buzz around HS seems marketdly lower this year in general.
But I digress. I agree, point is either could be true but we don't know which way to lean yet cause the meta hasn't really settled.
Yes and no. Yes: at any given day in HS history, there was a deck indicating > 55% winrate on HsReplay. But No because those winrate numbers belay how disgustingly overpowered that deck is. Go to https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/346/galakrond-shaman#tab=matchups and look at those numbers. It's "only" 59% winrate average, but its > 50% on every archetype besides Holy Wrath Paladin and between 60-75% winrate on most. So many new and fun archetypes are just being annihilated by this stupid deck. Usually the decks that peak above 55% do so because they find an advantage against the most popular decks, and then other players find out and copy until it eventually pushes out the vulnerable decks. Here, though, EVERY deck (besides HW Pally) is vulnerable. That 55% number isn't the peak--it's the valley.
It is inherently broken. Every single card with a battlecry has to take Shudderwock into account.
It's undeniable that Shaman's various cards are greatly overtuned in a way that's just not fun. Dragon's Pack is a Feral Spirit that trades overload for coming in 2 turns later, which meant literally nothing since Feral didn't see play, but it also gave +3/3 to the wolves just after 2 invoke. I'd have put it as +2/2 if they wanted to go that route. Mogu feels like a stronger corridor creeper in the way it punishes having minion and shaman even have the evolve synergy to back it up. HP+wasp is a fireball to the face that also put in a body. Quest is too easy for the minion type it interact. Mutate should've costed 1 minimum and evolve 2. Shudderwock is Shudderwock.
Shudderwock ain't the main problem, but too strong Battlecries are and this has been said few times. You can double Galakronds Battlecry with Quest as well and 7+2 mana armor+weapon+4x 8/8 rush is busted from any perspective.
You have option to get 4x 5/6 taunts and 3/3 with only 8 mana without any drawback and this might see some tweaking too.
Im not sure will Quest reward Hero Power change to "next battlecry" even be enough as it won't change anything with Galakrond. Will those taunts lose additional Att&HP as Overload seems bit too small change.
Hopefully they will announce the news soon as majority of HS community are waiting them.
Kibler was speaking in the heat of the moment
A card that cannot be reliably drawn and depends on the use of all your other battlecries seeing play at 9 mana is fairly stated. Look at Tess Greymane
DJ
They're not comparable. You can't control what Tess plays, minion put on board are just bodies because battlecry won't activate, and the main power comes from spells which are usually reactive, and also it's way easier for Tess to be interrupted.
In the case of Shudderwock, you can definitely control what he plays, the battlecry can both be body generations, destruction effect, or value generation, and it won't end unless you goof up and play a hagatha elemental that destroy everything on board or plague of murloc the board beforehand.
Lol, seems not so long ago when Shaman was completely unplayable. Now all the sudden it went from Warriorstone to Shamanstone, and people want to kill the class completely.
While this round of nerfs is definitely warranted. I find most calls for nerfs come from folks that are butt hurt the deck they love running and winning with becomes a complete loser.
Guaranteed. Soon after the Shaman nerf hits. There will be a new call for nerfs to the next deck that takes over the ladder by a fresh crop of butt hurt players. It never ends.
Grammar is the difference between knowing your crap, and knowing you’re crap.
A .gif is worth a thousand words.
Make its battlecry its deathrattle. Easy as that honestly