If the community and Blizzard could sit down and parlay a deal and Blizzard made the offer of balancing cards several times during each expansion, buffs and nerfs alike, but put the condition that dust refunds would have to be done away with, would you be one of the players that'd accept?
I certainly would. I can see it from their perspective perfectly: they released a card or two yet again that's running rampant and overshadowing everything else. If they water the card down a little then everyone that's playing the card and everyone that's not gets to cash in their copies and craft something else they want. Of that population X% would have spent real money to buy packs to get the dust. In the long view that equates to quite a lot of electricity bills getting paid.
If, however, the whole concept of refunding was done away with the only real nuisance is the inconvenience of extra patching. Compared to the alternative of having to play the game two years with broken Patches or Barnes again I can easily decide what side I am on. Remember that every broken card dominates most every other card you've collected since they cannot compete with it. In a very real way, you are losing resources by those cards existing. Being forced to play them and play against them is of course tiresome as well.
The only caveat I can add is that newer players with their limited collections should really be able to still enjoy refunds. For the whales like myself it doesn't matter as much. I would rather be able to play more of the cards I already own than make new ones.
Why on earth would you give up dust refund? I think we should be more vocal as a community so Blizzard hears us out more often when nerfs are needed. Right now it's a win/win, get nerfs, get dust. Never give that up.
My entry describes why. I'm not sure if you actually read it or just the title... If you disagree that is one thing but flying off the handle and calling me stupid or crazy just makes you look it.
I read whole topic. But i dont see why would ypu give up on dust when you can have both. Its like working in mcdonalds and asking boss for a paycut lol
No it shouldn’t be given up. I think if blizzard needs the motivation to not give back dust then they’ll simply do more to play test before release. Honestly a lot of these things that need nerds should have simply never been released in their current form. I guess my answer is learn from mistakes and make cleaner releases from the start.
Fair enough, but time has shown that they don't and they won't. Versus things going on the way they have been since I've been playing the game I'd be willing to give up the small cherry-on-top of refund dust for more expedient and frequent balancing. I'm a little surprised how protective you guys are of the dust refund system.
I don’t think it’s the dust economy that is discouraging them from more frequent balance changes. It’s just their culture of being too hesitant and data-focused. They’ve been changing in that regard, going so far as to buff cards and adding wild cards as an event.
They’re starting to have a little more courage with respect to both printing bigger and better tech cards (think platebreaker and sticky finger destroying control warrior and kingsbane rogue) and different events and patches. Don’t give them the idea that it justifies taking away dust refunds.
İts name is dust refund right so they should only refund the dust that people actually used to craft the card. They shouldn't give dust refund for the cards people obtain from packs.
Guys... Do you have a brain? Ok so, giving back dust is the least thing that they can do. Most of the cards they nerf, they actually bring combo cards with it. We don't get dust for these combo cards. THEY make a mistake and we players get a refund, why wouldn't we?
Only giving back dust to players who craft the card? Bullshit. Why? Ok, there is a new exp, I want 2 new legendary's, one I unboxed and one I crafted. If I got the nerfed card from the pack, I wouldn't get my dust. I didn't got the nerfed leg from a pack, so I craft it, I get refund. In both situations I would have the 2 legends. Should I feel unlucky for spending 100 gold on a pack where i got a leg and not crafted that leg? No.
They make overpowered cards. We players are TESTERS, in 2019 it's normal that the players are testers, so they should pay us that refund. They should actually pay us more.
You are basing your argument on the assumption that offering dust refunds is significantly costly to Blizzard--presumably because players are then using that dust instead of buying more packs with cash? I would challenge that assumption. Most players aren't getting THAT much more dust from the refund versus just normal disenchantment, and I imagine the correlation of daily pack sales to balance patches is fairly weak--if anything, they might actually be a slight uptick because if you open any of the affected cards, you can dust them immediately.
The other part of this equation is: you seem to assume it is trivial for Blizzard to implement a balance patch, while I suspect it has a HUGE cost to them. The Design Team needs to decide what the actual changes will be. The Software Team needs to implement it in code. The Build Team needs to recompile and permanently archive it. The Test Team needs to go through and verify everything is working as expected (remember that patch a months ago where all the classic cards disappeared?). The Deployment Team needs to make sure the proper files are sent to all the different servers, Google Play, iTunes, etc. The Marketing Team needs to announce the patch to the public. The Project Management Team needs to predict how much labor will be needed to do all the aforementioned and get Executive Approval to delay whatever everyone was originally scheduled to be working on. And all this needs to happen for every supported region and language. I would guess around ~$100,000 worth of labor hours alone for this upcoming patch. The dust refund is nothing compared to that.
Lmao the dust refund isn't why blizzard doesn't nerf cards. They've always been great at finding the cheapest commons and rares to nerf and gut legendary cards (Saronite Chain Gang to nerf Shudderwock/Grumble, Leech Life to nerf Kingsbane, Rockbiter to nerf epic card Doomhammer, etc). They do nerf legendaries but not as frequently. I'd rather see Blizzard banish the truly oppressive cards to the Hall of Fame so you can use them in Wild and let Standard be a bit more balanced, and get them in gold too for free. I'm glad I can still play Even/Odd decks in wild.
The truth is these brokeback meta decks are what Blizzard secretly wants because it makes the casuals drop money on packs for the dopamine rush of EZ wins. I guess Shaman was too brokeback this time.
Guys... Do you have a brain? Ok so, giving back dust is the least thing that they can do. Most of the cards they nerf, they actually bring combo cards with it. We don't get dust for these combo cards. THEY make a mistake and we players get a refund, why wouldn't we?
Only giving back dust to players who craft the card? Bullshit. Why? Ok, there is a new exp, I want 2 new legendary's, one I unboxed and one I crafted. If I got the nerfed card from the pack, I wouldn't get my dust. I didn't got the nerfed leg from a pack, so I craft it, I get refund. In both situations I would have the 2 legends. Should I feel unlucky for spending 100 gold on a pack where i got a leg and not crafted that leg? No.
They make overpowered cards, we players are TESTERS, in 2019 it's normal that players are testers, so they should pay us that refund. They should actually pay us more.
Yeah you should feel unlucky because you already feel unlucky when you open a bad legendary or a bad epic right or when you cannot open legendary and hit to pity counter pack opening is all about luck.
Thank you for your reply OldMannSanns. Nice to see a few ppl here are capable of a viable one. I hear you on how big an operation a nerf can be but have to think you might be blowing it out of proportion some. Or if it really is exactly like you described they need to figure out a way to streamline it. An example being would be to develop and code BACKUP versions of cards in case the one they release turns out to be busted. Patches for example should have been anticipated that a free 1/1 charger could be an issue and have the lite version in the wings, the 1/1 non-charge we all thankfully deal with today.
Also, all of you seem to have missed the inherent implication of regular balance patches: every expansion might include 10-20 cards being nerfed (some being reverted if buffs happen as well, a la Luna's PG). THAT adds up to a lot of free dust that would be heaven for us all of course, but we have to understand that from their point of view it's eating crow that they fucked up PLUS their profit margins get slightly hit.
I say balancing the cards that didn't come out right is more important than a little dust. If they throw some buffs in at the same time it evens out for me. I think a lot of you are having trouble wrapping your heads around a theoretical different way of doing it because you are so used to the current one ( that doesn't work ).
The game already has regular balance patches - with next week's patch, we'll have had seven this year. Apparently, lots of folks wanted eight, owing to Doom in the Tomb - but it was a temporary event. Presumably, balance patches are only "needed" in order to address legitimate game-play imbalances. But if that's the case, there really isn't any schedule that can be followed - patches are issued when there are genuine problems, and otherwise not. If the OP is suggesting that the game requires a schedule, and that Blizzard should regularly intervene even when there are no genuine balance issues, I suspect few players would agree - "every month, we change 10 to 20 cards, for the sake of changing 10 to 20 cards." When balance changes are too frequent, it undermines the point of collecting any cards at all - why bother, if dozens of them are going to be changed for no other reason than changing them?
In any event, linking any of these matters to a hypothetical forfeiture of players' dust refunds is a complete non-sequitur. No one is "having trouble wrapping their heads around" the OP's suggestion - it simply doesn't make any sense.
The game is everything but perfect (doesn't mean I don't enjoy it so don't send me to the salt thread already)
Dust refund cannot be given up. It's necessary in the buyer/seller deal. The buyer acquires something at a price and if the seller decides to change the product bought, he should always guarantee the refund of the amount invested whatever the change(and, as quite rightly said by Slyde above, Blizzard is already very much at the limit of that contract by changing commons rather than legendaries in a way that makes the legendaries trash and only giving you dust back for the inexpensive). Why would you consider buying something that can be broken down to trash when the seller decides so?
So no way I'm gonna let Blizzard do what they want with the cards I paid for and not ask for something in return. In addition, nerfing should be kept to a strict minimum trough careful review of the cards and their potential interactions before printing (What about that to start with?)
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If the community and Blizzard could sit down and parlay a deal and Blizzard made the offer of balancing cards several times during each expansion, buffs and nerfs alike, but put the condition that dust refunds would have to be done away with, would you be one of the players that'd accept?
I certainly would. I can see it from their perspective perfectly: they released a card or two yet again that's running rampant and overshadowing everything else. If they water the card down a little then everyone that's playing the card and everyone that's not gets to cash in their copies and craft something else they want. Of that population X% would have spent real money to buy packs to get the dust. In the long view that equates to quite a lot of electricity bills getting paid.
If, however, the whole concept of refunding was done away with the only real nuisance is the inconvenience of extra patching. Compared to the alternative of having to play the game two years with broken Patches or Barnes again I can easily decide what side I am on. Remember that every broken card dominates most every other card you've collected since they cannot compete with it. In a very real way, you are losing resources by those cards existing. Being forced to play them and play against them is of course tiresome as well.
The only caveat I can add is that newer players with their limited collections should really be able to still enjoy refunds. For the whales like myself it doesn't matter as much. I would rather be able to play more of the cards I already own than make new ones.
Yes, but newer players should still recieve the refunds wtf this is just retarded
^ ubiquitous just bash on author first reply. Please ignore
Why on earth would you give up dust refund? I think we should be more vocal as a community so Blizzard hears us out more often when nerfs are needed. Right now it's a win/win, get nerfs, get dust. Never give that up.
My entry describes why. I'm not sure if you actually read it or just the title... If you disagree that is one thing but flying off the handle and calling me stupid or crazy just makes you look it.
I read whole topic. But i dont see why would ypu give up on dust when you can have both. Its like working in mcdonalds and asking boss for a paycut lol
No it shouldn’t be given up. I think if blizzard needs the motivation to not give back dust then they’ll simply do more to play test before release. Honestly a lot of these things that need nerds should have simply never been released in their current form. I guess my answer is learn from mistakes and make cleaner releases from the start.
Fair enough, but time has shown that they don't and they won't. Versus things going on the way they have been since I've been playing the game I'd be willing to give up the small cherry-on-top of refund dust for more expedient and frequent balancing. I'm a little surprised how protective you guys are of the dust refund system.
I don’t think it’s the dust economy that is discouraging them from more frequent balance changes. It’s just their culture of being too hesitant and data-focused. They’ve been changing in that regard, going so far as to buff cards and adding wild cards as an event.
They’re starting to have a little more courage with respect to both printing bigger and better tech cards (think platebreaker and sticky finger destroying control warrior and kingsbane rogue) and different events and patches. Don’t give them the idea that it justifies taking away dust refunds.
Dust refund is already not fair, like how they can nerf a common and send 3 legendaries to the dumpster.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
İts name is dust refund right so they should only refund the dust that people actually used to craft the card. They shouldn't give dust refund for the cards people obtain from packs.
Guys... Do you have a brain? Ok so, giving back dust is the least thing that they can do. Most of the cards they nerf, they actually bring combo cards with it. We don't get dust for these combo cards. THEY make a mistake and we players get a refund, why wouldn't we?
Only giving back dust to players who craft the card? Bullshit. Why? Ok, there is a new exp, I want 2 new legendary's, one I unboxed and one I crafted. If I got the nerfed card from the pack, I wouldn't get my dust. I didn't got the nerfed leg from a pack, so I craft it, I get refund. In both situations I would have the 2 legends. Should I feel unlucky for spending 100 gold on a pack where i got a leg and not crafted that leg? No.
They make overpowered cards. We players are TESTERS, in 2019 it's normal that the players are testers, so they should pay us that refund. They should actually pay us more.
You are basing your argument on the assumption that offering dust refunds is significantly costly to Blizzard--presumably because players are then using that dust instead of buying more packs with cash? I would challenge that assumption. Most players aren't getting THAT much more dust from the refund versus just normal disenchantment, and I imagine the correlation of daily pack sales to balance patches is fairly weak--if anything, they might actually be a slight uptick because if you open any of the affected cards, you can dust them immediately.
The other part of this equation is: you seem to assume it is trivial for Blizzard to implement a balance patch, while I suspect it has a HUGE cost to them. The Design Team needs to decide what the actual changes will be. The Software Team needs to implement it in code. The Build Team needs to recompile and permanently archive it. The Test Team needs to go through and verify everything is working as expected (remember that patch a months ago where all the classic cards disappeared?). The Deployment Team needs to make sure the proper files are sent to all the different servers, Google Play, iTunes, etc. The Marketing Team needs to announce the patch to the public. The Project Management Team needs to predict how much labor will be needed to do all the aforementioned and get Executive Approval to delay whatever everyone was originally scheduled to be working on. And all this needs to happen for every supported region and language. I would guess around ~$100,000 worth of labor hours alone for this upcoming patch. The dust refund is nothing compared to that.
Lmao the dust refund isn't why blizzard doesn't nerf cards. They've always been great at finding the cheapest commons and rares to nerf and gut legendary cards (Saronite Chain Gang to nerf Shudderwock/Grumble, Leech Life to nerf Kingsbane, Rockbiter to nerf epic card Doomhammer, etc). They do nerf legendaries but not as frequently. I'd rather see Blizzard banish the truly oppressive cards to the Hall of Fame so you can use them in Wild and let Standard be a bit more balanced, and get them in gold too for free. I'm glad I can still play Even/Odd decks in wild.
The truth is these brokeback meta decks are what Blizzard secretly wants because it makes the casuals drop money on packs for the dopamine rush of EZ wins. I guess Shaman was too brokeback this time.
Yeah you should feel unlucky because you already feel unlucky when you open a bad legendary or a bad epic right or when you cannot open legendary and hit to pity counter pack opening is all about luck.
Can people stop complaining and get good. I play shaman and win. I play against it and win. Ain’t hard people
Thank you for your reply OldMannSanns. Nice to see a few ppl here are capable of a viable one. I hear you on how big an operation a nerf can be but have to think you might be blowing it out of proportion some. Or if it really is exactly like you described they need to figure out a way to streamline it. An example being would be to develop and code BACKUP versions of cards in case the one they release turns out to be busted. Patches for example should have been anticipated that a free 1/1 charger could be an issue and have the lite version in the wings, the 1/1 non-charge we all thankfully deal with today.
Also, all of you seem to have missed the inherent implication of regular balance patches: every expansion might include 10-20 cards being nerfed (some being reverted if buffs happen as well, a la Luna's PG). THAT adds up to a lot of free dust that would be heaven for us all of course, but we have to understand that from their point of view it's eating crow that they fucked up PLUS their profit margins get slightly hit.
I say balancing the cards that didn't come out right is more important than a little dust. If they throw some buffs in at the same time it evens out for me. I think a lot of you are having trouble wrapping your heads around a theoretical different way of doing it because you are so used to the current one ( that doesn't work ).
I.... don't think that's the subject here...
Hmmm . . .
The game already has regular balance patches - with next week's patch, we'll have had seven this year. Apparently, lots of folks wanted eight, owing to Doom in the Tomb - but it was a temporary event. Presumably, balance patches are only "needed" in order to address legitimate game-play imbalances. But if that's the case, there really isn't any schedule that can be followed - patches are issued when there are genuine problems, and otherwise not. If the OP is suggesting that the game requires a schedule, and that Blizzard should regularly intervene even when there are no genuine balance issues, I suspect few players would agree - "every month, we change 10 to 20 cards, for the sake of changing 10 to 20 cards." When balance changes are too frequent, it undermines the point of collecting any cards at all - why bother, if dozens of them are going to be changed for no other reason than changing them?
In any event, linking any of these matters to a hypothetical forfeiture of players' dust refunds is a complete non-sequitur. No one is "having trouble wrapping their heads around" the OP's suggestion - it simply doesn't make any sense.
There is no good answer in your poll.
The game is everything but perfect (doesn't mean I don't enjoy it so don't send me to the salt thread already)
Dust refund cannot be given up. It's necessary in the buyer/seller deal. The buyer acquires something at a price and if the seller decides to change the product bought, he should always guarantee the refund of the amount invested whatever the change(and, as quite rightly said by Slyde above, Blizzard is already very much at the limit of that contract by changing commons rather than legendaries in a way that makes the legendaries trash and only giving you dust back for the inexpensive). Why would you consider buying something that can be broken down to trash when the seller decides so?
So no way I'm gonna let Blizzard do what they want with the cards I paid for and not ask for something in return. In addition, nerfing should be kept to a strict minimum trough careful review of the cards and their potential interactions before printing (What about that to start with?)