As the title says. Ignoring the deck’s current power level, I really feel this archetype is going to warp future design far too extensively. As it stands it’s mostly an unimaginative obnoxious RNG value fest at the moment (thanks to the return of evolve to wild) which is annoying on its own. Watching someone pilot this deck and generate 663476436382646842 lackeys every turn is mind numbingly boring regardless of whether you’re winning or losing at the time. Many people have already predicted tier 0 quest shaman at this point with the full release of the upcoming cards. I’m not ready to jump on that bandwagon yet, mostly because I don’t think Galakrond makes it into that deck in the long run, but it is getting some crazy weapons. There in lies the issue though, every shaman/neutral battlecry for the next YEAR is going to have to run through the quest shaman filter and I don’t think that bodes well from a creative standpoint. Even if this deck isn’t tier 0 a change is going to have to be made. Making the hero power only work on shaman cards might be an ok change since it dramatically limits the filter required for future content while still giving the deck access to really good battlecries (as well as making it do something other than generate lackeys). This is what makes the druid quest okay is the fact it only works on a small portion of druid cards and nothing else. Thoughts?
EDIT:
Okay I’m adding this because people aren’t understanding my point. This isn’t a “ERMAHGERD SHAMAN OP PLZ NERF” thread. I prefaced the whole post with “ignoring shamans current power level.” And I never at any point say shamans are OP. This post is entirely aimed at the point that the shaman quest reward is going to negatively effect future content because future neutral battlecries will have to be made with quest shaman in mind. This indirectly effects cards that the other classes will have access to.
Look if we considired "future style" as a concern, cards like jade idol or tunnel trogg would have been nerfed. So no, i know HS community especially likes to whine about warrior or shaman ( instead of real problems like infinite value) but shaman does not deserve a nerf
Problem is the coexistence of the quest AND the lackeys. Lackeys make for a way too fast and easy completion of the quest. And at the same time give way too much value once the quest is completed. Without them quest requirement and reward would be ok I guess.
As of now they should make the newly acquired hero power work as murmuring elemental: your next battlecry triggers twice.
It has gotten better since evolve is gone though. Sometimes value decks can get a little stuck with too much in hand and not enough quality board presence. The biggest problem is all the direct damage that allows them to steal games. I'd love to see a nerf to the lackey that deals two (make it deal 1) but would be unfair to other classes
Look if we considired "future style" as a concern, cards like jade idol or tunnel trogg would have been nerfed. So no, i know HS community especially likes to whine about warrior or shaman ( instead of real problems like infinite value) but shaman does not deserve a nerf
The problem with shaman is it’s going to effect all the future neutral battlecries. Warriors issues are it’s own cards so it’s not indirectly effecting the other classes options from a creative standpoint.
Well, quest shamans were a serious pain in the ass for all these months and the funny thing is that they will be replaced with something even more powerful with a DoD release, shamans as well and I have a feeling that the next meta shaman deck will make everyone feel like "damn, it's even worse than it was with a quest shaman". Blizzard definitely love this class :)
This, both of this actually. Pretty much all the lackeys are overpowered for their cost as they are. Making them an easy activator for a quest reward that further enhances them is what tips the scales. I also find them quite unfun as a concept, but that's just an opinion.
The suggested quest nerf (double only the next battlecry) would also be not completely uncalled for and wouldn't kill the viability of battlecry quest decks at all, given the cheap and borderline OP lackey battlecries as activators. The reward would have to be used more thoughtfully and wouldn't give a free hand refill every turn anymore.
There in lies the issue though, every shaman/neutral battlecry for the next YEAR is going to have to run through the quest shaman filter and I don’t think that bodes well from a creative standpoint. Even if this deck isn’t tier 0 a change is going to have to be made. [...] This is what makes the druid quest okay is the fact it only works on a small portion of druid cards and nothing else. Thoughts?
I think you are worrying too much.
We had the situation many times before, that decks could become stronger or even too strong if they received better support, but many of them ended up not receiving the kind of support they actually needed.
While Battlecry is a very common, possibly even the most common keyword, it can be expected that many new Battlecry cards won't support Quest Shaman's playstyle. Some will have an effect that only triggers once anyway, some will be too weak or cost too much, some will be detrimental to your strategy. There is always the possibility that a new card makes the deck much stronger, but it's the same for every other deck. And at least for the Quest's time in Standard, any good support will likely be designed as such.
To give you a counter-example: Even and Odd as build-arounds seem much more problematic, because every single new card, for all eternity, will work with one or the other, and every class can try to make an Even or Odd deck. But despite the huge amount of possible candidates, it is actually difficult to find suitable upgrades for these decks, since most cards are not helping with what you are trying to accomplish, and don't work with each other or your hero power.
There in lies the issue though, every shaman/neutral battlecry for the next YEAR is going to have to run through the quest shaman filter and I don’t think that bodes well from a creative standpoint. Even if this deck isn’t tier 0 a change is going to have to be made. [...] This is what makes the druid quest okay is the fact it only works on a small portion of druid cards and nothing else. Thoughts?
I think you are worrying too much.
We had the situation many times before, that decks could become stronger or even too strong if they received better support, but many of them ended up not receiving the kind of support they actually needed.
While Battlecry is a very common, possibly even the most common keyword, it can be expected that many new Battlecry cards won't support Quest Shaman's playstyle. Some will have an effect that only triggers once anyway, some will be too weak or cost too much, some will be detrimental to your strategy. There is always the possibility that a new card makes the deck much stronger, but it's the same for every other deck. And at least for the Quest's time in Standard, any good support will likely be designed as such.
To give you a counter-example: Even and Odd as build-arounds seem much more problematic, because every single new card, for all eternity, will work with one or the other, and every class can try to make an Even or Odd deck. But despite the huge amount of possible candidates, it is actually difficult to find suitable upgrades for these decks, since most cards are not helping with what you are trying to accomplish, and don't work with each other or your hero power.
You’re missing my point. I’m not worried about it getting too much support, I’m worried about other classes not getting support because a battlecry would be too good in quest shaman so it isn’t made.
If you're attempting to quote someone, you should at least make sure to try and include the actual quote, and not paraphrase it to support your straw man. The only reason people are "missing your point", is that it's quite nonsensical to begin with, to say the least.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf either to the number of battlecries to complete quest or make the battlecry hero only work on the first minion each turn.
If you're attempting to quote someone, you should at least make sure to try and include the actual quote, and not paraphrase it to support your straw man. The only reason people are "missing your point", is that it's quite nonsensical to begin with, to say the least.
I didn’t paraphrase anything. There’s nothing nonsensical about my point. If you’re going to try to argue a point make sure you have one and are actually paying attention.
You might want to remove the term "Quest" and refer to the entire class.
Starting tomorrow, expect 3 months of Shaman mirror madness with the occasional tempo roque / combo priest / highlander hunter / pirate warrior / treant token druid hipsters few and far between.
So no, i know HS community especially likes to whine about warrior or shaman ( instead of real problems like infinite value) but shaman does not deserve a nerf
And this is a sad fact. I don't know why people hate and cry when Shaman and/or Warrior gets the full end of the stick, but then everything is fine when the poor mage, warlock, and the priest gets the broken cards on the beginning of the new rotation. Maybe midrange shaman still has them so traumatized that all they do to get over it is complain when we get 1-2 really good cards in the past 3 to 4 expansions.
So no, i know HS community especially likes to whine about warrior or shaman ( instead of real problems like infinite value) but shaman does not deserve a nerf
And this is a sad fact. I don't know why people hate and cry when Shaman and/or Warrior gets the full end of the stick, but then everything is fine when the poor mage, warlock, and the priest gets the broken cards on the beginning of the new rotation. Maybe midrange shaman still has them so traumatized that all they do to get over it is complain when we get 1-2 really good cards in the past 3 to 4 expansions.
Uhh thats because shaman's and warrior's classic sets are really weak and blizz must pump these classes up for their meta game. Mage/Warlock/Priest are classes that has access to infinite value ( rez priest/ DK jaina and DK Guldan) so they want that status quo lol. Like Barnes was nerfed 2 years and Dr. Boom is like 2 sets?
There in lies the issue though, every shaman/neutral battlecry for the next YEAR is going to have to run through the quest shaman filter and I don’t think that bodes well from a creative standpoint. Even if this deck isn’t tier 0 a change is going to have to be made. [...] This is what makes the druid quest okay is the fact it only works on a small portion of druid cards and nothing else. Thoughts?
I think you are worrying too much.
We had the situation many times before, that decks could become stronger or even too strong if they received better support, but many of them ended up not receiving the kind of support they actually needed.
While Battlecry is a very common, possibly even the most common keyword, it can be expected that many new Battlecry cards won't support Quest Shaman's playstyle. Some will have an effect that only triggers once anyway, some will be too weak or cost too much, some will be detrimental to your strategy. There is always the possibility that a new card makes the deck much stronger, but it's the same for every other deck. And at least for the Quest's time in Standard, any good support will likely be designed as such.
To give you a counter-example: Even and Odd as build-arounds seem much more problematic, because every single new card, for all eternity, will work with one or the other, and every class can try to make an Even or Odd deck. But despite the huge amount of possible candidates, it is actually difficult to find suitable upgrades for these decks, since most cards are not helping with what you are trying to accomplish, and don't work with each other or your hero power.
You’re missing my point. I’m not worried about it getting too much support, I’m worried about other classes not getting support because a battlecry would be too good in quest shaman so it isn’t made.
I said how there is no reason to believe that all future Battlecries would benefit Quest Shaman. If you want to discuss that we might not see good battlecries in the future anymore, I kind of answered that already by saying that you can make good battlecries that are simply uninteresting for Quest Shaman, haven't I?
But ok, if you wish to point in the "limits design space" direction, I correct my response and say that you definitely worry too much. Or rather, you think about it the wrong way.
Class cards are supposed to definine the strengths and playstyles of classes, while neutral cards are, for the most part, meant to be weaker support tools, either moderately compensating weaknesses or moderately enhancing strengths, ignoring tech cards and a few build-around legendaries.
If new battlecries are released, they are of course more interesting for Shaman, but if they seem weak to you, it won't be because of Corrupt the Waters exists, but because they are neutrals. It's kind of like saying that Necrium Vial or Nine Lives prevent better Deathrattles, which is equally untrue. That's not to say that there are no good neutral cards at all, but they are not the main source for power, and the support you receive from neutral cards should always be rather limited.
That being said, Descend of Dragons features quite a few decent neutral battlecries, some of them are very strong, just not necessarily suited for Quest Shaman For example, Scalerider is a very good card in a dragon deck, and Quest Shaman could go for a Dragon-build as well, but they don't have much of their own dragon support, and are probably better off with other battlecry-related strategies like lackeys. Faceless Corruptor is also a very strong battlecry, but it isn't better in Quest Shaman, because doubling the effect is pointless.
Likewise, you can also observe that the quest isn't doing all too well in Wild. Apparently, all the years before the quest (where it didn't have to be considered) did not produce such insane battlecries that it is unstoppable now. So, not only do we still get new, strong battlecries even with the quest, we can also see that the powerlevel of battlecries wasn't much, if any higher before it came out.
Saying that the quest is "bad for the game" is plain wrong. Neither is it inherently too strong, nor does it/should it prevent new battlecries from getting released. Of course we are speaking hypothetically here, since we'd never know if a design was or will be scrapped due to those possible interactions, but I have no reason to believe that all future Battlecries are going to be weak, because even the newest ones aren't, and because we had very many bad ones before. Besides, not every class is supposed to benefit from Battlecries either, so for every hypothetically awesome neutral battlecry you are missing, you might as well complain about the lack of something else that would be beneficial for some class.
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As the title says. Ignoring the deck’s current power level, I really feel this archetype is going to warp future design far too extensively. As it stands it’s mostly an unimaginative obnoxious RNG value fest at the moment (thanks to the return of evolve to wild) which is annoying on its own. Watching someone pilot this deck and generate 663476436382646842 lackeys every turn is mind numbingly boring regardless of whether you’re winning or losing at the time. Many people have already predicted tier 0 quest shaman at this point with the full release of the upcoming cards. I’m not ready to jump on that bandwagon yet, mostly because I don’t think Galakrond makes it into that deck in the long run, but it is getting some crazy weapons. There in lies the issue though, every shaman/neutral battlecry for the next YEAR is going to have to run through the quest shaman filter and I don’t think that bodes well from a creative standpoint. Even if this deck isn’t tier 0 a change is going to have to be made. Making the hero power only work on shaman cards might be an ok change since it dramatically limits the filter required for future content while still giving the deck access to really good battlecries (as well as making it do something other than generate lackeys). This is what makes the druid quest okay is the fact it only works on a small portion of druid cards and nothing else. Thoughts?
EDIT:
Okay I’m adding this because people aren’t understanding my point. This isn’t a “ERMAHGERD SHAMAN OP PLZ NERF” thread. I prefaced the whole post with “ignoring shamans current power level.” And I never at any point say shamans are OP. This post is entirely aimed at the point that the shaman quest reward is going to negatively effect future content because future neutral battlecries will have to be made with quest shaman in mind. This indirectly effects cards that the other classes will have access to.
Look if we considired "future style" as a concern, cards like jade idol or tunnel trogg would have been nerfed. So no, i know HS community especially likes to whine about warrior or shaman ( instead of real problems like infinite value) but shaman does not deserve a nerf
Problem is the coexistence of the quest AND the lackeys. Lackeys make for a way too fast and easy completion of the quest. And at the same time give way too much value once the quest is completed. Without them quest requirement and reward would be ok I guess.
As of now they should make the newly acquired hero power work as murmuring elemental: your next battlecry triggers twice.
It has gotten better since evolve is gone though. Sometimes value decks can get a little stuck with too much in hand and not enough quality board presence. The biggest problem is all the direct damage that allows them to steal games. I'd love to see a nerf to the lackey that deals two (make it deal 1) but would be unfair to other classes
Have fun getting nuked in the face for 10 in DOD
quest is not the problem, an early flesshaper+ mutate is
The problem with shaman is it’s going to effect all the future neutral battlecries. Warriors issues are it’s own cards so it’s not indirectly effecting the other classes options from a creative standpoint.
Well, quest shamans were a serious pain in the ass for all these months and the funny thing is that they will be replaced with something even more powerful with a DoD release, shamans as well and I have a feeling that the next meta shaman deck will make everyone feel like "damn, it's even worse than it was with a quest shaman". Blizzard definitely love this class :)
Hardy G.
This, both of this actually. Pretty much all the lackeys are overpowered for their cost as they are. Making them an easy activator for a quest reward that further enhances them is what tips the scales. I also find them quite unfun as a concept, but that's just an opinion.
The suggested quest nerf (double only the next battlecry) would also be not completely uncalled for and wouldn't kill the viability of battlecry quest decks at all, given the cheap and borderline OP lackey battlecries as activators. The reward would have to be used more thoughtfully and wouldn't give a free hand refill every turn anymore.
Edit: I'm an idiot who doesn't know how to quote.
I think you are worrying too much.
We had the situation many times before, that decks could become stronger or even too strong if they received better support, but many of them ended up not receiving the kind of support they actually needed.
While Battlecry is a very common, possibly even the most common keyword, it can be expected that many new Battlecry cards won't support Quest Shaman's playstyle. Some will have an effect that only triggers once anyway, some will be too weak or cost too much, some will be detrimental to your strategy. There is always the possibility that a new card makes the deck much stronger, but it's the same for every other deck. And at least for the Quest's time in Standard, any good support will likely be designed as such.
To give you a counter-example: Even and Odd as build-arounds seem much more problematic, because every single new card, for all eternity, will work with one or the other, and every class can try to make an Even or Odd deck. But despite the huge amount of possible candidates, it is actually difficult to find suitable upgrades for these decks, since most cards are not helping with what you are trying to accomplish, and don't work with each other or your hero power.
You’re missing my point. I’m not worried about it getting too much support, I’m worried about other classes not getting support because a battlecry would be too good in quest shaman so it isn’t made.
It should be adjusted at least. Either make it harder to complete it, or have it trigger only first 1-2 battlecries per turn.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you're attempting to quote someone, you should at least make sure to try and include the actual quote, and not paraphrase it to support your straw man. The only reason people are "missing your point", is that it's quite nonsensical to begin with, to say the least.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a nerf either to the number of battlecries to complete quest or make the battlecry hero only work on the first minion each turn.
I didn’t paraphrase anything. There’s nothing nonsensical about my point. If you’re going to try to argue a point make sure you have one and are actually paying attention.
You might want to remove the term "Quest" and refer to the entire class.
Starting tomorrow, expect 3 months of Shaman mirror madness with the occasional tempo roque / combo priest / highlander hunter / pirate warrior / treant token druid hipsters few and far between.
No, git gud
And this is a sad fact. I don't know why people hate and cry when Shaman and/or Warrior gets the full end of the stick, but then everything is fine when the poor mage, warlock, and the priest gets the broken cards on the beginning of the new rotation. Maybe midrange shaman still has them so traumatized that all they do to get over it is complain when we get 1-2 really good cards in the past 3 to 4 expansions.
Uhh thats because shaman's and warrior's classic sets are really weak and blizz must pump these classes up for their meta game. Mage/Warlock/Priest are classes that has access to infinite value ( rez priest/ DK jaina and DK Guldan) so they want that status quo lol. Like Barnes was nerfed 2 years and Dr. Boom is like 2 sets?
I said how there is no reason to believe that all future Battlecries would benefit Quest Shaman. If you want to discuss that we might not see good battlecries in the future anymore, I kind of answered that already by saying that you can make good battlecries that are simply uninteresting for Quest Shaman, haven't I?
But ok, if you wish to point in the "limits design space" direction, I correct my response and say that you definitely worry too much. Or rather, you think about it the wrong way.
Class cards are supposed to definine the strengths and playstyles of classes, while neutral cards are, for the most part, meant to be weaker support tools, either moderately compensating weaknesses or moderately enhancing strengths, ignoring tech cards and a few build-around legendaries.
If new battlecries are released, they are of course more interesting for Shaman, but if they seem weak to you, it won't be because of Corrupt the Waters exists, but because they are neutrals. It's kind of like saying that Necrium Vial or Nine Lives prevent better Deathrattles, which is equally untrue. That's not to say that there are no good neutral cards at all, but they are not the main source for power, and the support you receive from neutral cards should always be rather limited.
That being said, Descend of Dragons features quite a few decent neutral battlecries, some of them are very strong, just not necessarily suited for Quest Shaman For example, Scalerider is a very good card in a dragon deck, and Quest Shaman could go for a Dragon-build as well, but they don't have much of their own dragon support, and are probably better off with other battlecry-related strategies like lackeys. Faceless Corruptor is also a very strong battlecry, but it isn't better in Quest Shaman, because doubling the effect is pointless.
Likewise, you can also observe that the quest isn't doing all too well in Wild. Apparently, all the years before the quest (where it didn't have to be considered) did not produce such insane battlecries that it is unstoppable now. So, not only do we still get new, strong battlecries even with the quest, we can also see that the powerlevel of battlecries wasn't much, if any higher before it came out.
Saying that the quest is "bad for the game" is plain wrong. Neither is it inherently too strong, nor does it/should it prevent new battlecries from getting released. Of course we are speaking hypothetically here, since we'd never know if a design was or will be scrapped due to those possible interactions, but I have no reason to believe that all future Battlecries are going to be weak, because even the newest ones aren't, and because we had very many bad ones before. Besides, not every class is supposed to benefit from Battlecries either, so for every hypothetically awesome neutral battlecry you are missing, you might as well complain about the lack of something else that would be beneficial for some class.