Its crazy to think luck and RNG doesn’t play a role in a game full of luck and RNG. Then again, ZtG has proven RNG is manipulated to begin with so...
Which RNG is manipulated and how? Can you link to that proof please?
Link what? The card alone proves it. It scans the board and looks for the “perfect” solution. That’s manipulation of the RNG right there.
ZtG is not RNG, it generates the cards based on an algorithm, not randomly. Zephrys proves that it is possible to manipulate discover options/topdecks etc. to suit the situation, but it does not on any level prove that it is actually happening outside of the instance of itself (which is exactly how it is supposed to work).
There is skill, absolutely there is. It's not dumb luck that similar sets of people hit legend every month etc.
Being a card game however there is an element of luck of the draw not only on your part but your opponent as well but I don't see how that's much different to almost every other card game. Poker requires luck and good draw but the skill is in reading the table, reading your opponents, having a deep understanding of decks, what's been pulled already, what's likely to be played, anticipating this and playing around what you estimate is about to happen.
I have no problem admitting I'm a bang average player. I know cards and decks to a certain extent and predict moves etc but when I watch good players, they anticipate things I would never have thought of, they bait certain cards out and their reading of the game is much better than mine. I'm not a good deck builder, I hold my hands up to that, I've tried and I tend to struggle putting a competitive deck together. I'm not a terrible player but as I said, I sometimes watch YouTube videos and certain plays or moves that pro players make at times just aren't what I would have done and that can really impact the outcome of the match. Even the top poker players in the world will fold, they recognise the odds, their hand etc and know how to play around certain situations.
Yes, draw can massively influence a game to the point where you can have games that you would lose no matter how you played it but that's what also makes it appealing. You can get lucky, you can be casual and still enjoy the game and win. You shouldn't be stuck with a 20% win rate because there's an element of things going your way.
Saying there's no skill involved and absolute rubbish though and is something I immediately associate with a bad player saying.
Its crazy to think luck and RNG doesn’t play a role in a game full of luck and RNG. Then again, ZtG has proven RNG is manipulated to begin with so...
Which RNG is manipulated and how? Can you link to that proof please?
Link what? The card alone proves it. It scans the board and looks for the “perfect” solution. That’s manipulation of the RNG right there.
ZtG is not RNG, it generates the cards based on an algorithm, not randomly. Zephrys proves that it is possible to manipulate discover options/topdecks etc. to suit the situation, but it does not on any level prove that it is actually happening outside of the instance of itself (which is exactly how it is supposed to work).
Exactly. “It’s possible to manipulate”.
Right. But RNG is still RNG and Zephrys is still not RNG. We still have no proof that so-called "RNG" mechanics (topdecks, discovers, add random, draw from pool etc) are being manipulated.
ZtG is not RNG, it generates the cards based on an algorithm, not randomly. Zephrys proves that it is possible to manipulate discover options/topdecks etc. to suit the situation, but it does not on any level prove that it is actually happening outside of the instance of itself (which is exactly how it is supposed to work).
Exactly. “It’s possible to manipulate”.
There are literally infinite things that sit within the realms of "It's possible". But without any evidence to prove that it is happening, logic and common sense dictates that you go with that which is more likely.
It's skill when I pull off a cool 200-IQ play out of nowhere. Obviously, it's just RnG bald-faced luck when my opponent does it. :-)
LOL 200 IQ gets used way too much for this game IMO. Yes there is skill involved, but finding the simple math equation to clear a board is not even close to even 140 IQ! As a guy who used to play tournament level chess, the amount of comparable skill between the games is not even close, yet, in the chess community, we dont say "wow, that was a 200 IQ move you just made" very often, or at all.
So, why is this phrase used so much in HS? Do players really feel that playing a game where 4 beats 3, and 3 beats 2 is that complicated and warrant such a saying? Or is more copy pasta going on, where he said it, so I say it too?
Your discussion about Grit really is appropriate, and is a totally different skill than pure intellect! The Grit you talk about is what is needed to climb the ladder with home brew decks especially because most others are using top tier decks. I admit to crumbling into a salty guy, when i get on a losing streak, and having more Grit helps alot for sure.
I think the dumbing down of western society is prob one of the reasons why the 200 IQ saying gets used in regards to simple HS plays. Kids today, generally, just arent as intelligent, as kids who grew up 60 years ago, playing Chess.
ZtG is not RNG, it generates the cards based on an algorithm, not randomly. Zephrys proves that it is possible to manipulate discover options/topdecks etc. to suit the situation, but it does not on any level prove that it is actually happening outside of the instance of itself (which is exactly how it is supposed to work).
Exactly. “It’s possible to manipulate”.
There are literally infinite things that sit within the realms of "It's possible". But without any evidence to prove that it is happening, logic and common sense dictates that you go with that which is more likely.
And yet most people believe JFK wasn’t assassinated by Oswald, that there is crazy shit in Area 51 and that a bunch of idiots who couldn’t fly a single propeller plane used box cutters to hijack four airlines. Has any of that been disproved? It can’t be because the government is not going to just hand over their secrets, are they?
Same thing with Blizzard. I understand these are ridiculous comparisons and I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when something doesn’t add up, there are reasons why. Are you going to ignore all of the complaints from players who swear once they tech a deck to counter another, the matchmaking completely alters to compensate?
It's skill when I pull off a cool 200-IQ play out of nowhere. Obviously, it's just RnG bald-faced luck when my opponent does it. :-)
LOL 200 IQ gets used way too much for this game IMO. Yes there is skill involved, but finding the simple math equation to clear a board is not even close to even 140 IQ! As a guy who used to play tournament level chess, the amount of comparable skill between the games is not even close, yet, in the chess community, we dont say "wow, that was a 200 IQ move you just made" very often, or at all.
So, why is this phrase used so much in HS? Do players really feel that playing a game where 4 beats 3, and 3 beats 2 is that complicated and warrant such a saying? Or is more copy pasta going on, where he said it, so I say it too?
Your discussion about Grit really is appropriate, and is a totally different skill than pure intellect! The Grit you talk about is what is needed to climb the ladder with home brew decks especially because most others are using top tier decks. I admit to crumbling into a salty guy, when i get on a losing streak, and having more Grit helps alot for sure.
I think the dumbing down of western society is prob one of the reasons why the 200 IQ saying gets used in regards to simple HS plays. Kids today, generally, just arent as intelligent, as kids who grew up 60 years ago, playing Chess.
Making conclusions about the (maybe not even existent) dumbing down of western society because of HS is a bold 200-IQ move dude.
Maybe this helps you understand in what situations this saying is generally used.
i think its a good reflection of that very thing. It manifests in many ways. Its proven that the education system is only teaching kids to memorize and not how to critically think. Life skills are non existent in school curiculums nowadays. On top of that, with Google and Youtube, kids arent reading books as much either, just GTS! for the answer. That causes more dumbing down. Then you add all the additives in our foods, the prevelance of medication to manage our feelings, and social media creating walking zombies, all these things contribute to western kids being dumbed down. I could go on, but for the sake of time and space, I wont. But thats why I believe 200 IQ is bantered around like its nothing. Study some Chess theory, and opening books lines, then compare what it takes to do that, compared to copy and paste a deck for HS, and play a game of Rock Paper Scissors. They dont really compare on alot of levels. Its a good analogy to use I think.
Which RNG is manipulated and how? Can you link to that proof please?
Link what? The card alone proves it. It scans the board and looks for the “perfect” solution. That’s manipulation of the RNG right there.
Ah, I thought you meant something hidden happening behind the scenes.
So, a card works as designed and publicized. Where is the problem?
I mean, you either misunderstand what manipulation means, or what RNG means. Calling this "RNG manipulation" is the same as calling a "discover a 4-cost card" "manipulation" because it limits the discover pool to only a certain subset of cards, or calling Arcane Missiles "manipulated" because their targets depend on the board state.
Let me start off to observe the Hearthstone is the only game in the world where you can achieve something with the deliberate help of the AI (Zephrys).
We immediately see that skill as an concept is curbed in order for you to win. Normal understanding of skill is that if you have more than your opponent, you win. Not so in Hearthstone. So is there skill in the game? Well there's corruption of skill for well defined purposes, for which one of them is marketing: the game is a succes because it is mindless enough.
Weird then, people like to see themselves as skillful and part of the elite reaching legend. But do you really think you have skill, or just more cunningly utilize mindlessness as a concept to do so?
Image for once, there were no chargers, excessive immediate burn on face, moderate buffs, not evolving a one manna into an Ysera and other kind of mindless randomness. Imagine the skill floor was higher. What would happen to your 'skill' to reach legend? You'll be needing more of it.
Well it all depends on marketing isn't it? For me Hearthstone (as it is now with the current card designers) is an assault on intelligence. Intellectual homicide. A crime against humanity. When you win a game you don't realize that you have been purposefully denigrated, dehumanized. Feel good but dumbed down, stupidified.
Weird then, people like to see themselves as skillful and part of the elite reaching legend. But do you really think you have skill, or just more cunningly utilize mindlessness as a concept to do so?
...
Weird, a player with absolutely no accomplishments his given it's thoughts (and I use that word very lightly) on the game.
Weird then, people like to see themselves as skillful and part of the elite reaching legend. But do you really think you have skill, or just more cunningly utilize mindlessness as a concept to do so?
...
Weird, a player with absolutely no accomplishments his given it's thoughts (and I use that word very lightly) on the game.
Why are you attacking the guy and saying he has no accomplishments? He has a right to voice is opinion on the game. Jeez.
The "skill" in Hearthstone is very different than skill in other games... In other games (i.e. MOBAs, MMOs, etc) skill is based on your mechanics, micro and macro play.
In Hearthstone your "skill" is essentially the same as your ability to roll a 6 on 20-sided dice
Weird then, people like to see themselves as skillful and part of the elite reaching legend. But do you really think you have skill, or just more cunningly utilize mindlessness as a concept to do so?
...
Weird, a player with absolutely no accomplishments his given it's thoughts (and I use that word very lightly) on the game.
Why are you attacking the guy and saying he has no accomplishments? He has a right to voice is opinion on the game. Jeez.
Well , one could also argue he attacked the whole Hearthstone (a crime against humanity) playerbase.
Personally it baffles me that here are still people talking about Hearthstone in a way it’s like rolling a dice, or that reaching a specific rank doesn’t mean that the person has any skill.
Is Hearthstone a super complex game that only the smartest people are able to figure out? Probably not , but it takes skill 100% . Driving a car takes skill.
How do we measure that. I don’t know. But even very smart people (like Dr. Bunnyhoppor , is his real name Raphael Meltzer ? Not sure) say they are far from playing Hearthstone perfectly. In my opinion it’s impossible to compare it with anything else. Maybe Poker? Also there it oftentimes looks like everything is rng based, but to be profitable and play the best way possible it sure takes a lot of brainpower, skill etc .
I would only argue luck or an unfair card in one instance.
I recently navigated a very hard game against a hunter. I made no misplays, got both lucky and unlucky with card draw, but was able to play a very competitive game. I had the hunter to 1 hp, myself at 7hp. The hunter had blown their resources and had no cards in hand and only two left in their deck.
On their turn, they drew and played Zephrys. One Gorehowl later, and I've lost. Their win was not skillful.
In card games the goal is not to win in every matchup, but to have positive win ratio over the course of many matches. That is because card games by design have RNG built in (if anything - card draw mechanics is pure RNG).
For example, chess is the opposite - there is no RNG, every player starts from identical positions (ok, one is Black the other is White). To simplify things - one game of chess is basically enough to determine who is better player, one game of HS is not enough to determine who is better player.
And that is why people love card games - it is always possible for noob to defeat the best player in one game if he has RNG on his side. It gives noobs illusion that they are awesome players. Such thing is impossible in chess.
it is always possible for noob to defeat the best player in one game if he has RNG on his side. It gives noobs illusion that they are awesome players. Such thing is impossible in chess.
That is a card design choice that a noob can win from a seasoned player and not the wat CGC's work. Skill is defined by its floor, not the ceiling.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Is there any point in trying to explain color to a blind person?
Those who rant about RNG are clearly incapable of grasping the skill component, so there's actually no way to convince them. What's more, they NEED to believe it's RNG to keep their egos intact.
Until a person says, "I'm ready to stop blaming the universe for my mistakes," there's just no point in having this conversation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Exactly. “It’s possible to manipulate”.
There is skill, absolutely there is. It's not dumb luck that similar sets of people hit legend every month etc.
Being a card game however there is an element of luck of the draw not only on your part but your opponent as well but I don't see how that's much different to almost every other card game. Poker requires luck and good draw but the skill is in reading the table, reading your opponents, having a deep understanding of decks, what's been pulled already, what's likely to be played, anticipating this and playing around what you estimate is about to happen.
I have no problem admitting I'm a bang average player. I know cards and decks to a certain extent and predict moves etc but when I watch good players, they anticipate things I would never have thought of, they bait certain cards out and their reading of the game is much better than mine. I'm not a good deck builder, I hold my hands up to that, I've tried and I tend to struggle putting a competitive deck together. I'm not a terrible player but as I said, I sometimes watch YouTube videos and certain plays or moves that pro players make at times just aren't what I would have done and that can really impact the outcome of the match. Even the top poker players in the world will fold, they recognise the odds, their hand etc and know how to play around certain situations.
Yes, draw can massively influence a game to the point where you can have games that you would lose no matter how you played it but that's what also makes it appealing. You can get lucky, you can be casual and still enjoy the game and win. You shouldn't be stuck with a 20% win rate because there's an element of things going your way.
Saying there's no skill involved and absolute rubbish though and is something I immediately associate with a bad player saying.
Right. But RNG is still RNG and Zephrys is still not RNG. We still have no proof that so-called "RNG" mechanics (topdecks, discovers, add random, draw from pool etc) are being manipulated.
There are literally infinite things that sit within the realms of "It's possible".
But without any evidence to prove that it is happening, logic and common sense dictates that you go with that which is more likely.
LOL 200 IQ gets used way too much for this game IMO. Yes there is skill involved, but finding the simple math equation to clear a board is not even close to even 140 IQ! As a guy who used to play tournament level chess, the amount of comparable skill between the games is not even close, yet, in the chess community, we dont say "wow, that was a 200 IQ move you just made" very often, or at all.
So, why is this phrase used so much in HS? Do players really feel that playing a game where 4 beats 3, and 3 beats 2 is that complicated and warrant such a saying? Or is more copy pasta going on, where he said it, so I say it too?
Your discussion about Grit really is appropriate, and is a totally different skill than pure intellect! The Grit you talk about is what is needed to climb the ladder with home brew decks especially because most others are using top tier decks. I admit to crumbling into a salty guy, when i get on a losing streak, and having more Grit helps alot for sure.
I think the dumbing down of western society is prob one of the reasons why the 200 IQ saying gets used in regards to simple HS plays. Kids today, generally, just arent as intelligent, as kids who grew up 60 years ago, playing Chess.
Come up with something original.
And yet most people believe JFK wasn’t assassinated by Oswald, that there is crazy shit in Area 51 and that a bunch of idiots who couldn’t fly a single propeller plane used box cutters to hijack four airlines. Has any of that been disproved? It can’t be because the government is not going to just hand over their secrets, are they?
Same thing with Blizzard. I understand these are ridiculous comparisons and I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when something doesn’t add up, there are reasons why. Are you going to ignore all of the complaints from players who swear once they tech a deck to counter another, the matchmaking completely alters to compensate?
Making conclusions about the (maybe not even existent) dumbing down of western society because of HS is a bold 200-IQ move dude.
Maybe this helps you understand in what situations this saying is generally used.
i think its a good reflection of that very thing. It manifests in many ways. Its proven that the education system is only teaching kids to memorize and not how to critically think. Life skills are non existent in school curiculums nowadays. On top of that, with Google and Youtube, kids arent reading books as much either, just GTS! for the answer. That causes more dumbing down. Then you add all the additives in our foods, the prevelance of medication to manage our feelings, and social media creating walking zombies, all these things contribute to western kids being dumbed down. I could go on, but for the sake of time and space, I wont. But thats why I believe 200 IQ is bantered around like its nothing. Study some Chess theory, and opening books lines, then compare what it takes to do that, compared to copy and paste a deck for HS, and play a game of Rock Paper Scissors. They dont really compare on alot of levels. Its a good analogy to use I think.
I appreciate your reply! Take it easy!
I should have worded it better. My bad.
Skill? Right!
Let me start off to observe the Hearthstone is the only game in the world where you can achieve something with the deliberate help of the AI (Zephrys).
We immediately see that skill as an concept is curbed in order for you to win. Normal understanding of skill is that if you have more than your opponent, you win. Not so in Hearthstone. So is there skill in the game? Well there's corruption of skill for well defined purposes, for which one of them is marketing: the game is a succes because it is mindless enough.
Weird then, people like to see themselves as skillful and part of the elite reaching legend. But do you really think you have skill, or just more cunningly utilize mindlessness as a concept to do so?
Image for once, there were no chargers, excessive immediate burn on face, moderate buffs, not evolving a one manna into an Ysera and other kind of mindless randomness. Imagine the skill floor was higher. What would happen to your 'skill' to reach legend? You'll be needing more of it.
Well it all depends on marketing isn't it? For me Hearthstone (as it is now with the current card designers) is an assault on intelligence. Intellectual homicide. A crime against humanity. When you win a game you don't realize that you have been purposefully denigrated, dehumanized. Feel good but dumbed down, stupidified.
Wish you a game of skill.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Weird, a player with absolutely no accomplishments his given it's thoughts (and I use that word very lightly) on the game.
Stop talking about eachother and concentrate on the topic. Further sniping at eachother will not be tolerated.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
Why are you attacking the guy and saying he has no accomplishments? He has a right to voice is opinion on the game. Jeez.
The "skill" in Hearthstone is very different than skill in other games... In other games (i.e. MOBAs, MMOs, etc) skill is based on your mechanics, micro and macro play.
In Hearthstone your "skill" is essentially the same as your ability to roll a 6 on 20-sided dice
-DadamE
Well , one could also argue he attacked the whole Hearthstone (a crime against humanity) playerbase.
Personally it baffles me that here are still people talking about Hearthstone in a way it’s like rolling a dice, or that reaching a specific rank doesn’t mean that the person has any skill.
Is Hearthstone a super complex game that only the smartest people are able to figure out? Probably not , but it takes skill 100% . Driving a car takes skill.
How do we measure that. I don’t know. But even very smart people (like Dr. Bunnyhoppor , is his real name Raphael Meltzer ? Not sure) say they are far from playing Hearthstone perfectly. In my opinion it’s impossible to compare it with anything else. Maybe Poker? Also there it oftentimes looks like everything is rng based, but to be profitable and play the best way possible it sure takes a lot of brainpower, skill etc .
I would only argue luck or an unfair card in one instance.
I recently navigated a very hard game against a hunter. I made no misplays, got both lucky and unlucky with card draw, but was able to play a very competitive game. I had the hunter to 1 hp, myself at 7hp. The hunter had blown their resources and had no cards in hand and only two left in their deck.
On their turn, they drew and played Zephrys. One Gorehowl later, and I've lost. Their win was not skillful.
In short - you need skill to be top player in HS.
In card games the goal is not to win in every matchup, but to have positive win ratio over the course of many matches. That is because card games by design have RNG built in (if anything - card draw mechanics is pure RNG).
For example, chess is the opposite - there is no RNG, every player starts from identical positions (ok, one is Black the other is White).
To simplify things - one game of chess is basically enough to determine who is better player, one game of HS is not enough to determine who is better player.
And that is why people love card games - it is always possible for noob to defeat the best player in one game if he has RNG on his side. It gives noobs illusion that they are awesome players. Such thing is impossible in chess.
That is a card design choice that a noob can win from a seasoned player and not the wat CGC's work. Skill is defined by its floor, not the ceiling.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Is there any point in trying to explain color to a blind person?
Those who rant about RNG are clearly incapable of grasping the skill component, so there's actually no way to convince them. What's more, they NEED to believe it's RNG to keep their egos intact.
Until a person says, "I'm ready to stop blaming the universe for my mistakes," there's just no point in having this conversation.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland