The age-old discussion: Does it require skill to play Hearthstone, or it a pure RNG fiasco?
I have to admit, I'm guilty of claiming this game has little to no skill in order to play effectively, and instead relies heavily on luck. Then I started to ponder my dissertation which is about grit and success. In case you don't know what grit is, it is trait-level perseverance of effort and consistency of interest; Google Angela Duckworth and grit and you'll get tons of academic literature on the topic. When you combine grit and self-regulation (the ability to control one's self) you get a very reliable predictor of a person's potential to be successful.
So how does this fit into Hearthstone? Well, think about what it takes to rank up. The decks are pretty homogeneous; by this I mean there are meta decks that everyone copies and pastes, with very little variation. So in a way we can view them as a constant. However, the level of grit one has should vary greatly from player to player. The first facet, perseverance of effort, is basically not giving up even if you are on a losing streak (i.e. overcoming an obstacle). Players here will say "stick to a deck, don't switch it up all the time". That takes grit, but it also takes consistency of interest. If you get bored of a deck easily or get overly frustrated when you lose, you tend to do more poorly. Self regulation is a key component as well, as there is a phenomena called "falling down the rabbit hole". If you are too gritty, it begins to manifest as stubbornness. So, rather than learning from your mistakes, you tend to think you played perfectly and have no need to change your game plan. Thus, a balance of self-regulation and grit will allow you to stay calm and overcome the obstacles you face, such as that dreaded final boss at rank 5 and legend floors.
These concepts of non-cognitive skills and success are obviously more valuable outside of games, but they hold true nonetheless. Does RNG still play a massive role? Absolutely. Are there times where you played perfectly and lost to a scrub because luck sided with them and not you? 100%. But, it's how you manage that that determines your success. If stepping away helps, do that. Streamers don't have that ability usually, so even when they lose they keep at it. I think WoWHobbs is a great example of a gritty player. He gives two shits about playing the top meta decks. He floats between ranks 5-3 most of the time, but he does so with off-the-wall crazy decks. He sticks with it, stay interested in the style of gameplay he enjoys, and most of all, HAS FUN. I encourage you to try the same.
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
For sure.
RNG is still a massive factor, but the level of grit, at least imo, actually weighs more heavily than knowing all the ins and outs of HS. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it still has relevance. However, by being gritty, you are more likely to learn the mechanics of HS to a higher degree, no doubt.
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
“Loser”
Anyway, the only skill involved is basic math and reading. So please pat yourself on the back for having such things.
There is no such a thing like skill in this game. Let me explain why. (:
First of all, the game is BASED on LUCK and RANDOM EVENTS. Which means that skill can't change the game. You can't change the way the cards work or influence which cards you discover, etc.
People who can reach legend every month use their OWN ABILITIES. Abilities related to THEM, not to Hearthstone. Analyzing, patience, thinking, etc. This is not an "in-game" skill. They are smart and can think well enough. They can analyze well enough. They KNOW and REMEMBER things. Let's say you have three minions on the board as Mage against Quest Shaman. Will you play the Power of Creation? No. Because your opponent might have MCT in their hand. Is that a skill? Yes. But not related to the game. It's related to your own self.
A skill is something that impacts the events and is produced by its "owner". For example, let's say two teams play a football/soccer game. One team starts with four goals advantage. The other team wins. Now that's a in-game skill. They used THEIR OWN ABILITIES BUT RELATED TO FOOTBALL to turn the game around. In Hearthstone it's not possible. (: If one player has advantage, the other can play only the cards they have in their hand. They're restricted to that. They can't make any impact. If they don't have the right cards, they lose. Simple.
I'm ranked 8. Give me a "better position" in a game against legend-ranked player. If they don't their best card, they'll lose. Luck!
Give me a better position in chess against higher ranked player. They'll win because they will make better moves. Skill!
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
“Loser”
Anyway, the only skill involved is basic math and reading. So please pat yourself on the back for having such things.
By your logic only skill in chess is reading (the rules), that's why no one, not even supercomputers and top AIs can play chess perfectly every time even when there are only 8 pieces left on the board.
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
In fact I would say saying it's rng would likely cause someone not to grow as rather than looking for ways to improve and finding patterns they think ' random pattern' this disabling themselves from actually learning.
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
In fact I would say saying it's rng would likely cause someone not to grow as rather than looking for ways to improve and finding patterns they think ' random pattern' this disabling themselves from actually learning.
And then since they don't get better and don't learn the skills to win there is a self referential loop and it still looks like rng to them. It's self reinforcing because if you don't look to improve and find where skill is needed that doesn't exist for you thus the only obvious thing is rng.
There is no such a thing like skill in this game. Let me explain why. (:
First of all, the game is BASED on LUCK and RANDOM EVENTS. Which means that skill can't change the game. You can't change the way the cards work or influence which cards you discover, etc.
People who can reach legend every month use their OWN ABILITIES. Abilities related to THEM, not to Hearthstone. Analyzing, patience, thinking, etc. This is not an "in-game" skill. They are smart and can think well enough. They can analyze well enough. They KNOW and REMEMBER things. Let's say you have three minions on the board as Mage against Quest Shaman. Will you play the Power of Creation? No. Because your opponent might have MCT in their hand. Is that a skill? Yes. But not related to the game. It's related to your own self.
A skill is something that impacts the events and is produced by its "owner". For example, let's say two teams play a football/soccer game. One team starts with four goals advantage. The other team wins. Now that's a in-game skill. They used THEIR OWN ABILITIES BUT RELATED TO FOOTBALL to turn the game around. In Hearthstone it's not possible. (: If one player has advantage, the other can play only the cards they have in their hand. They're restricted to that. They can't make any impact. If they don't have the right cards, they lose. Simple.
I'm ranked 8. Give me a "better position" in a game against legend-ranked player. If they don't their best card, they'll lose. Luck!
Give me a better position in chess against higher ranked player. They'll win because they will make better moves. Skill!
This is possibly the worst attempt at explaining an incorrect concept I have ever had the misfortune of reading.
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
“Loser”
Anyway, the only skill involved is basic math and reading. So please pat yourself on the back for having such things.
By your logic only skill in chess is reading (the rules), that's why no one, not even supercomputer and top AIs can play chess perfectly every time even when there are only 8 pieces left on the board.
By my logic I don’t compare a pile of RNG bullshit to chess because Im not stupid.
5 years ago, i played hundreds of games a month and hovered around rank 10. nowadays i play like 50 games a month and i'm always around the ranks 5 to 1.
if i can get to these ranks, this game doesn't have much to do with "skill".
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
Well said. Watching pro players during this meta has been particularly humbling for me. I anticipate so few of the moves that these guys actually make, even on what seem like pretty cut-and-dry turns. The decks that people are complaining about like combo Priest and battlecry Shaman just have a ton of complexity to really get the most out of them, and these guys pilot them to perfection.
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
“Loser”
Anyway, the only skill involved is basic math and reading. So please pat yourself on the back for having such things.
By your logic only skill in chess is reading (the rules), that's why no one, not even supercomputer and top AIs can play chess perfectly every time even when there are only 8 pieces left on the board.
By my logic I don’t compare a pile of RNG bullshit to chess because Im not stupid.
No, just full of venom. You poor frustrated loser.
hearthstone at it's core is 100% RNG based. if everyone played everything perfectly then the luckier player would always win.
HOWEVER, not everyone plays perfectly. In fact, almost nobody does. Using skill allows you to influence how much of a chance you have to win. manage your resources better, get more value, do better mulligans, all these things give you a better chance of winning. So yes, a dumbass could win just by being really really lucky, but a lot of matches are actually decided by what player plays their cards better.
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That's Incredible!
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The age-old discussion: Does it require skill to play Hearthstone, or it a pure RNG fiasco?
I have to admit, I'm guilty of claiming this game has little to no skill in order to play effectively, and instead relies heavily on luck. Then I started to ponder my dissertation which is about grit and success. In case you don't know what grit is, it is trait-level perseverance of effort and consistency of interest; Google Angela Duckworth and grit and you'll get tons of academic literature on the topic. When you combine grit and self-regulation (the ability to control one's self) you get a very reliable predictor of a person's potential to be successful.
So how does this fit into Hearthstone? Well, think about what it takes to rank up. The decks are pretty homogeneous; by this I mean there are meta decks that everyone copies and pastes, with very little variation. So in a way we can view them as a constant. However, the level of grit one has should vary greatly from player to player. The first facet, perseverance of effort, is basically not giving up even if you are on a losing streak (i.e. overcoming an obstacle). Players here will say "stick to a deck, don't switch it up all the time". That takes grit, but it also takes consistency of interest. If you get bored of a deck easily or get overly frustrated when you lose, you tend to do more poorly. Self regulation is a key component as well, as there is a phenomena called "falling down the rabbit hole". If you are too gritty, it begins to manifest as stubbornness. So, rather than learning from your mistakes, you tend to think you played perfectly and have no need to change your game plan. Thus, a balance of self-regulation and grit will allow you to stay calm and overcome the obstacles you face, such as that dreaded final boss at rank 5 and legend floors.
These concepts of non-cognitive skills and success are obviously more valuable outside of games, but they hold true nonetheless. Does RNG still play a massive role? Absolutely. Are there times where you played perfectly and lost to a scrub because luck sided with them and not you? 100%. But, it's how you manage that that determines your success. If stepping away helps, do that. Streamers don't have that ability usually, so even when they lose they keep at it. I think WoWHobbs is a great example of a gritty player. He gives two shits about playing the top meta decks. He floats between ranks 5-3 most of the time, but he does so with off-the-wall crazy decks. He sticks with it, stay interested in the style of gameplay he enjoys, and most of all, HAS FUN. I encourage you to try the same.
Cheers
In Hearthstone, like many other games, the result of ONE game is determined by TWO factors: skill and luck.
There is not much to ponder here.
If you have any doubt about skill in Hearthstone, i would suggest to watch some games from Hunterace in GM! I am sure this guy would beat 9 out of 10 times every normal Rank5 Hearthstone player, even if he had an unfavorable matchup.
Also in comparison to other Cardgames Hearthstones skillsealing is quite okish.
In my opinion most players blame rng or bad luck for their losses, but meanwhile they don’t see their mistakes, and " it’s all just rng " , is the easy way out.
saying HS is pure luck is always the excuse of the looser
if you play enough games you will realize this game has a lot of skill involved
us good players recognize this every month when we go back to rank4, when terrible players are all over the place, you can notice their poor plays and decisions every game. Actually is not until top200 legend when you can see flawless play.
For sure.
RNG is still a massive factor, but the level of grit, at least imo, actually weighs more heavily than knowing all the ins and outs of HS. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it still has relevance. However, by being gritty, you are more likely to learn the mechanics of HS to a higher degree, no doubt.
It's skill when I pull off a cool 200-IQ play out of nowhere.
Obviously, it's just RnG bald-faced luck when my opponent does it. :-)
RNG versus skill is such a terrible, wrong-headed false dichotomy.
Anticipating and dealing with random outcomes is one of the primary skills required to succeed in Hearthstone.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
“Loser”
Anyway, the only skill involved is basic math and reading. So please pat yourself on the back for having such things.
There is no such a thing like skill in this game. Let me explain why. (:
First of all, the game is BASED on LUCK and RANDOM EVENTS. Which means that skill can't change the game. You can't change the way the cards work or influence which cards you discover, etc.
People who can reach legend every month use their OWN ABILITIES. Abilities related to THEM, not to Hearthstone. Analyzing, patience, thinking, etc. This is not an "in-game" skill. They are smart and can think well enough. They can analyze well enough. They KNOW and REMEMBER things. Let's say you have three minions on the board as Mage against Quest Shaman. Will you play the Power of Creation? No. Because your opponent might have MCT in their hand. Is that a skill? Yes. But not related to the game. It's related to your own self.
A skill is something that impacts the events and is produced by its "owner". For example, let's say two teams play a football/soccer game. One team starts with four goals advantage. The other team wins. Now that's a in-game skill. They used THEIR OWN ABILITIES BUT RELATED TO FOOTBALL to turn the game around. In Hearthstone it's not possible. (: If one player has advantage, the other can play only the cards they have in their hand. They're restricted to that. They can't make any impact. If they don't have the right cards, they lose. Simple.
I'm ranked 8. Give me a "better position" in a game against legend-ranked player. If they don't their best card, they'll lose. Luck!
Give me a better position in chess against higher ranked player. They'll win because they will make better moves. Skill!
By your logic only skill in chess is reading (the rules), that's why no one, not even supercomputers and top AIs can play chess perfectly every time even when there are only 8 pieces left on the board.
What happens when you admit you won a match from pure luck? Then what?
In fact I would say saying it's rng would likely cause someone not to grow as rather than looking for ways to improve and finding patterns they think ' random pattern' this disabling themselves from actually learning.
And then since they don't get better and don't learn the skills to win there is a self referential loop and it still looks like rng to them. It's self reinforcing because if you don't look to improve and find where skill is needed that doesn't exist for you thus the only obvious thing is rng.
This is possibly the worst attempt at explaining an incorrect concept I have ever had the misfortune of reading.
By my logic I don’t compare a pile of RNG bullshit to chess because Im not stupid.
Heartstone = 40% skill + 60% RNG
Signature move
5 years ago, i played hundreds of games a month and hovered around rank 10. nowadays i play like 50 games a month and i'm always around the ranks 5 to 1.
if i can get to these ranks, this game doesn't have much to do with "skill".
Well said. Watching pro players during this meta has been particularly humbling for me. I anticipate so few of the moves that these guys actually make, even on what seem like pretty cut-and-dry turns. The decks that people are complaining about like combo Priest and battlecry Shaman just have a ton of complexity to really get the most out of them, and these guys pilot them to perfection.
No, just full of venom. You poor frustrated loser.
hearthstone at it's core is 100% RNG based. if everyone played everything perfectly then the luckier player would always win.
HOWEVER, not everyone plays perfectly. In fact, almost nobody does. Using skill allows you to influence how much of a chance you have to win. manage your resources better, get more value, do better mulligans, all these things give you a better chance of winning. So yes, a dumbass could win just by being really really lucky, but a lot of matches are actually decided by what player plays their cards better.
That's Incredible!