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And yet we see very few Hunter games in Grandmasters. Hmmm....
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It is not at chess levels, however it is like chess puzzles when in-game,n you are given your position and oponents and gotta play around it.
Honestly skills in hearthstone are planning ahead, adding tech cards ahead of time, making trades thinking ahead, and decision making whether to attack face, kill minnions or trade 1 of your own.
Are these skills hard? Not exactly but for a person to remember most decks and possible enemy plays he has to have memorized most of the game too.
Baiting enemy into your own plays is a skill too.
These are all individually easy skills, however combining them all, it is not as easy as it seems.
Otherwise Pro players would not exist. It is just that maximum potential in hearthstone could be reached after a few months, rather than years in chess.
Like the advertising once announced so true:
Easy to play, hard to master.
Here we see the classic mistake and successful propaganda that skill has something to do with a ceiling, while the skill floor a.k.a the difficulty of a deck is normative in assigning skill to a task. Since Hearthstone doesn't contain difficult decks, skill is curbed, therefore not fundamental for winning games: mastery in Hearthstone has very little to do with professing skill.
If one could only smell the repugnancy of card designers and the lack of ethical skills of their defenders.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
Although I understand where you're coming from, let us breath together and aks a third party to judge who is the better breather.
The third party would assign you the better breather because you breath like a pro, plan better ahead, bait better, adding tech 'cards' to your breathing, better inhale decision making.....
Got it or should I elaborate?
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
It's nice and heartening to see that when you actually get some thoughtful discussion going, the majority come to the obvious conclusion.
It's rare in this day and age that a lot of folks will listen to reason. I congratulate the open-minded.
Once we can move beyond the existence and relevance of skill in gameplay, it allows a lot more interesting discussions about other aspects of enjoying the game. For example, let's take a look at the current Wild meta. While there are a decent number of high-performing decks, the ladder is noticeably infested by the aggro deck normally referred to as Secret Mage.
It wasn't so long ago that Secret Mage was equally prevalent on the Standard ladder. The shell of the deck was intact since Kobolds and Catacombs came out, bringing the amazing tempo play of Kirin Tor Mage into Explosive Runes. This deck was (and is, in WIld) a direct foil to several types of control deck, and enjoys a staggeringly high win rate against most control types, even including the warrior class.
Now, since we're beyond the skill question and can dismiss the idea of "brainless" decks out of hand, let's revisit the question of why decks like this are so hated? I have a theory. Other people may describe this theory with words like skill "floor" and "ceiling", but I think there is value in more precise language.
Let's remember what we've established here by the existence of skill AND RNG in the same space, and let's apply this to the classic "play 100 games" model. Take any competitive deck, go on the ladder, you will have the potential to win X games, where X is (realistically) between 0 and 100. By "potential" I mean that if you play every game with zero mistakes, you will lose greater than zero games based on RNG, but X games represents the best performance of which the deck is capable in skilled hands.
Now, we know there is a sense of some decks being easier to play than others. But what does that mean in terms of the 100 game model? Well, logically speaking, the easier the deck is to play, the less skill is required to approach winning X games. Maybe your average rank 15 casual player is able to get 80% of X wins with some decks, but only 50% of X games with others. Then we might say, the deck that gets 80% of its potential with a relatively low skilled player is a "low skill" deck.
Here I'll pause and say I'm sure there will be some naysayers who will contradict the possibility that some decks are so "high skill" that the average player can only reach 50% of the potential win rate. To those people I say, you obviously didn't play during the days of Patron Warrior. And that's all there is to say about that.
So, back to Secret Mage. Why do we dislike this deck? Well, for one thing, I suspect that if you took the time to write a program counting all the possible decisions in a game, Secret Mage would be on the low end of number of decision points. Typically, you had a Kabal Lackey or a Mana Wyrm (pre-nerf) on turn 1, or you didn't. You had an Apprentice or Arcanologist on 2. And you had a Kirin Tor Mage, or you played the secret straight up on 3. Now, occasionally there was a decision to be made when you had two secrets in hand, and at times, that decision was very relevant to the outcome of the game, but I think again, if you studied it over many games, more often than not that would not be a game-changing decision.
Secret Mage was rare, even among aggro decks, in that it frequently played the same way regardless of opponent's line of play. It sought to deal 30 points of damage to the face as quickly as possible, and because of the high number of direct damage spells, it had a good chance of being successful without engaging in any sort of tempo play or much interaction with the opponent, AND because of this, the number of decisions to be made were at an unusual low, even among aggro decks.
Notice, I keep using the phrase "number of decisions" because I suspect that is the best measurement for decks' skill requirements as I have defined them above. So, why do we hate Secret Mage? You have a deck that will provide a low-skill player with a high percentage of the deck's total possible win rate, and will do so with as little variation in play as possible. Furthermore, the deck preys on the opposite sort of deck; those which have a high number of decision points and (perhaps) provide a much lower percentage of possible wins to all but the highest skilled players. Therefore, the Secret Mage actively discourages the play of high skill decks at all but the highest levels of the ladder or tournament play.
Now, there are a number of assumptions I've made in this post with which you might take issue. Perhaps you don't like my definition of skill as related to number of possible decisions to be made (I have written a lot in defense of this definition in previous posts, but always happy to revisit). Maybe you don't see the X game model as fully encapsulating what constitutes iterative skill. But isn't it nice to at least be able to have a conversation at a higher level than "hurr durr RNG rulez all"? It's a wonderful thing to be able to embrace an obvious conclusion and move on with clear and abiding willingness to ignore those who refuse to move on to different levels of argument.
Sorry, of all the walls of text I've made on this thread, this might be the least substantial, but it's just nice to see some progress being made for once.
Randomly met C_A_W on the ladder and he recognized me from the forum. Hope to catch the rest of you sometime.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Aw did someone hurt your wittle feelings to the point you have to compare Hearthstone (which is MTG for ADD kids) to actual life? I’m doing very well for myself in life and I think a retarded monkey on crack could play this game. Take your sanctimonious post and choke on it.
@DrWolsBadTV.
Don't be that personal and harsh on the guy. He's is just part of a fast army of fanboys being led by those who want to 'move beyond' the fact that there's little to no skill in Hearthstone.
Just sit back and enjoy the self proclamed pundits move on with the 'skill' in Hearthstone discussion. It is in the end obviously hard to accept that one reached legend with no skill whatsoever.
So stay civil and sit back and watch people make fools out of themselves by arguing skill to the game.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
.
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