Apply the filters. At Legend to 5, Shaman goes up to 43.1%. At Legend Only, it hits 46.5%. See the trend?
And this is averaging all builds of Quest Shaman. Most of which are suboptimal.
Thijs was speaking of this on a recent YT VOD. As he was crushing his helpless CW opponent.
I'm not sure if you're providing evidence to support my opinion or against it - but it seems that those stats do prove my point, though. If the best it can do is 46.5%, and that is at legend where meme decks are king and should be the easiest place to win (as shown by the trend), then it seems fairly congruent that Shaman is not a good matchup against Warrior by any stretch. One person doing well against warrior, when the vast majority do not, doesn't provide an exception to that rule. Only a single abberation, which is what we would expect.
Going by his Youtube videos, Kibler wins every* match he plays with Plot Twist Warlock - but that doesn't mean that deck is now Tier 1 and better than any other deck.
*obviously the YT videos are hand-picked, but I'm sure you get the point I'm making there. :-)
I highly reccommend crafting Quest Shaman. It’s very fun to play, not very expensive and competitive at the same time. The games are rather fast, much better than those 30min CW games.
Quest Shaman vs Control Warrior is extremely close. The matchup requires less thinking on the side of the Warrior because they can just play their standard game plan, while the Shaman often has to deviate from the norm and get a little creative to win. With that said if both players are adept at the matchup, the Shaman is slightly favoured. However - in most cases the Warriors are playing the matchup better because it is more straightforward, hence the higher win rate in the matchup.
On topic - Its a strong deck and has a few interesting interactions but can be very frustrating at times because it can be fairly reliant on random outcomes a lot of the time. Once mastered its an easy climb though.
It's a very fun deck to play, there's lots of decisions to make. I'm not sure I'd dust the paladin quest for it though as that deck is really good too....
Quest Shaman vs Control Warrior is extremely close. The matchup requires less thinking on the side of the Warrior because they can just play their standard game plan, while the Shaman often has to deviate from the norm and get a little creative to win. With that said if both players are adept at the matchup, the Shaman is slightly favoured. However - in most cases the Warriors are playing the matchup better because it is more straightforward, hence the higher win rate in the matchup.
This is going to sound a little picky here, and I apologise for that in advance - from what you are saying, the Warrior has an easier job to do to beat Shaman, because they stick to their gameplan, yes? And that the Shaman can win but has to be creative and therefore it is a more difficult but possible outcome. And since the warrior has an easier job, then more people will succeed, because the easier task will naturally be completed more consistently by the average player (and players overall) than the harder one. So it makes sense that the Warrior is favored to win in terms of likelihood of a win (if you were betting on the outcome for instance). However, I suppose what you are also saying is that in the hands of more skilled (but less likely) players, then the Shaman could be more likely to win - with the extra creativity and skill involved. So in that respect, the Shaman would be considered favoured.
However, being favoured in a rare edge case (in my opinion) is outweighed by being favoured in the majority of outcomes. I believe that is the distinction that is being drawn in this discussion here? By all means, correct me if you think that's wrong, however.
Apply the filters. At Legend to 5, Shaman goes up to 43.1%. At Legend Only, it hits 46.5%. See the trend?
And this is averaging all builds of Quest Shaman. Most of which are suboptimal.
Thijs was speaking of this on a recent YT VOD. As he was crushing his helpless CW opponent.
I'm not sure if you're providing evidence to support my opinion or against it - but it seems that those stats do prove my point, though. If the best it can do is 46.5%, and that is at legend where meme decks are king and should be the easiest place to win (as shown by the trend), then it seems fairly congruent that Shaman is not a good matchup against Warrior by any stretch. One person doing well against warrior, when the vast majority do not, doesn't provide an exception to that rule. Only a single abberation, which is what we would expect.
Going by his Youtube videos, Kibler wins every* match he plays with Plot Twist Warlock - but that doesn't mean that deck is now Tier 1 and better than any other deck.
*obviously the YT videos are hand-picked, but I'm sure you get the point I'm making there. :-)
Meme decks being "king at Legend" is simply totally irrelevant here. We are looking at the stats of QS vs CW. There are no "meme" builds of CW.
For the people who play the game well, and simply being Legend doesn't imply a player plays well, the matchup is fine for QS. There is a severe skill cap to CW, which simply plays broken removal card after broken removal card. Nothing to think about. But for the thinking player, the QS end of the matchup is just what they are looking for. The idea is to apply the right amount of constant pressure, without ever over extending. And if done, QS usually wins.
i played Warri and in early season those QShamans beat the sh out of me. while the ones around now on mid ranks seem weaker. So it all depends theres no deck that makes up for foolish moves. Warrior is always tough in the beginning (thats where the skill comes in) and doesnt have much power at the end other than fatigue (rather less skilled gameplay).
Can't tell for sure if Qshaman is a highly skill involved deck, dont think so. You can easily be successful with it and the battlecries.
For the people who play the game well, and simply being Legend doesn't imply a player plays well, the matchup is fine for QS. There is a severe skill cap to CW, which simply plays broken removal card after broken removal card. Nothing to think about. But for the thinking player, the QS end of the matchup is just what they are looking for. The idea is to apply the right amount of constant pressure, without ever over extending. And if done, QS usually wins.
It's a dangerous stance to take, making the assumption that any deck requires little (or finite) thought / skill to pilot successfully. And more so, to infer that other decks that you opine to require more thought/skill would automatically be better. Especially when there is little to no evidence to substantiate such a claim, and in fact, the only reliable source of evidence (the statistics) points to the opposite outcome. For the very reasons you posit above, one could easily take the position that Warrior requires far more thought / skill than QS, simply because you have to consider every turn very carefully; when to play your board clears, how much damage you can afford to soak, whether you can play an offensive minion or need to keep turtling.
I'm not about to state that either deck is particularly harder than the other myself (since they both are evidently on a pretty much similar par for skill, really). But certainly, the basis of this particular argument seems very much grounded in subjective opinion, rather than provable methodology.
Quest Shaman vs Control Warrior is extremely close. The matchup requires less thinking on the side of the Warrior because they can just play their standard game plan, while the Shaman often has to deviate from the norm and get a little creative to win. With that said if both players are adept at the matchup, the Shaman is slightly favoured. However - in most cases the Warriors are playing the matchup better because it is more straightforward, hence the higher win rate in the matchup.
This is going to sound a little picky here, and I apologise for that in advance - from what you are saying, the Warrior has an easier job to do to beat Shaman, because they stick to their gameplan, yes? And that the Shaman can win but has to be creative and therefore it is a more difficult but possible outcome. And since the warrior has an easier job, then more people will succeed, because the easier task will naturally be completed more consistently by the average player (and players overall) than the harder one. So it makes sense that the Warrior is favored to win in terms of likelihood of a win (if you were betting on the outcome for instance). However, I suppose what you are also saying is that in the hands of more skilled (but less likely) players, then the Shaman could be more likely to win - with the extra creativity and skill involved. So in that respect, the Shaman would be considered favoured.
However, being favoured in a rare edge case (in my opinion) is outweighed by being favoured in the majority of outcomes. I believe that is the distinction that is being drawn in this discussion here? By all means, correct me if you think that's wrong, however.
Yes, precisely that. With high level (not necessarily optimal but closer to it than average) play, the Shaman has the edge. From an individual perspective if you become competent with Quest Shaman in the matchup, you should be favoured against Control Warrior.
How we interpret the information is obviously the kicker here. I always favour data based on optimal play (the old SC2 "we won't nerf Marauders because they're OP in bronze, the counter is L2P"). I appreciate that for the average player Shaman vs Warrior will go the Warrior's way, but it is still the Shaman's match to lose (marginally) because they have the power to win more often than not if they can find the correct lines, and given more time I expect to see the win rates change as players become more aware of the different tricks the deck is capable of that can bring Control Warriors down.
Ultimately Control Warrior is a tried and tested deck with a relatively straightforward game plan that you follow in close to 100% of games, while Quest Shaman is young and a little more complex with a wider variety of paths to follow through a game. I believe once the player base have a little more practice with the deck, we'll see the statistics swing in the Shaman's favour.
I've beaten a few warriors but it can be tricky, and I'm not a good quest shaman pilot by any means. Interesting discussion guys. I would say from my limited experience and research that warrior in the majority of games is favored.
Quest Shaman is a very strong deck that can definately beat Control Warrior. It is also a very tough deck to navigate. There are lots of different combinations every turn and deciding which is strongest is very tough. But once you start understanding the matchup better, CW is very beatable.
Bunnyhoppor went as far as to say "this matchup is impossible for the Warrior" on stream yesterday. Although there aren't many people that are playing to his level so it will be tough to emulate this on a regular basis.
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I'm not sure if you're providing evidence to support my opinion or against it - but it seems that those stats do prove my point, though.
If the best it can do is 46.5%, and that is at legend where meme decks are king and should be the easiest place to win (as shown by the trend), then it seems fairly congruent that Shaman is not a good matchup against Warrior by any stretch.
One person doing well against warrior, when the vast majority do not, doesn't provide an exception to that rule. Only a single abberation, which is what we would expect.
Going by his Youtube videos, Kibler wins every* match he plays with Plot Twist Warlock - but that doesn't mean that deck is now Tier 1 and better than any other deck.
*obviously the YT videos are hand-picked, but I'm sure you get the point I'm making there. :-)
I highly reccommend crafting Quest Shaman. It’s very fun to play, not very expensive and competitive at the same time. The games are rather fast, much better than those 30min CW games.
You should not blindly trust stats. There are several sites, which all say something different. Ask yourself the following questions:
-What deck do I see most on Ladder?
-What deck do a lot of people bring to Grandmasters?
-What deck do most players complain about?
-What deck is fun to play?
Quest Shaman vs Control Warrior is extremely close. The matchup requires less thinking on the side of the Warrior because they can just play their standard game plan, while the Shaman often has to deviate from the norm and get a little creative to win. With that said if both players are adept at the matchup, the Shaman is slightly favoured. However - in most cases the Warriors are playing the matchup better because it is more straightforward, hence the higher win rate in the matchup.
On topic - Its a strong deck and has a few interesting interactions but can be very frustrating at times because it can be fairly reliant on random outcomes a lot of the time. Once mastered its an easy climb though.
It's a very fun deck to play, there's lots of decisions to make. I'm not sure I'd dust the paladin quest for it though as that deck is really good too....
This is going to sound a little picky here, and I apologise for that in advance - from what you are saying, the Warrior has an easier job to do to beat Shaman, because they stick to their gameplan, yes? And that the Shaman can win but has to be creative and therefore it is a more difficult but possible outcome.
And since the warrior has an easier job, then more people will succeed, because the easier task will naturally be completed more consistently by the average player (and players overall) than the harder one.
So it makes sense that the Warrior is favored to win in terms of likelihood of a win (if you were betting on the outcome for instance).
However, I suppose what you are also saying is that in the hands of more skilled (but less likely) players, then the Shaman could be more likely to win - with the extra creativity and skill involved. So in that respect, the Shaman would be considered favoured.
However, being favoured in a rare edge case (in my opinion) is outweighed by being favoured in the majority of outcomes. I believe that is the distinction that is being drawn in this discussion here?
By all means, correct me if you think that's wrong, however.
Meme decks being "king at Legend" is simply totally irrelevant here. We are looking at the stats of QS vs CW. There are no "meme" builds of CW.
For the people who play the game well, and simply being Legend doesn't imply a player plays well, the matchup is fine for QS. There is a severe skill cap to CW, which simply plays broken removal card after broken removal card. Nothing to think about. But for the thinking player, the QS end of the matchup is just what they are looking for. The idea is to apply the right amount of constant pressure, without ever over extending. And if done, QS usually wins.
i played Warri and in early season those QShamans beat the sh out of me. while the ones around now on mid ranks seem weaker. So it all depends theres no deck that makes up for foolish moves. Warrior is always tough in the beginning (thats where the skill comes in) and doesnt have much power at the end other than fatigue (rather less skilled gameplay).
Can't tell for sure if Qshaman is a highly skill involved deck, dont think so. You can easily be successful with it and the battlecries.
It's a dangerous stance to take, making the assumption that any deck requires little (or finite) thought / skill to pilot successfully. And more so, to infer that other decks that you opine to require more thought/skill would automatically be better. Especially when there is little to no evidence to substantiate such a claim, and in fact, the only reliable source of evidence (the statistics) points to the opposite outcome.
For the very reasons you posit above, one could easily take the position that Warrior requires far more thought / skill than QS, simply because you have to consider every turn very carefully; when to play your board clears, how much damage you can afford to soak, whether you can play an offensive minion or need to keep turtling.
I'm not about to state that either deck is particularly harder than the other myself (since they both are evidently on a pretty much similar par for skill, really). But certainly, the basis of this particular argument seems very much grounded in subjective opinion, rather than provable methodology.
Yes, precisely that. With high level (not necessarily optimal but closer to it than average) play, the Shaman has the edge. From an individual perspective if you become competent with Quest Shaman in the matchup, you should be favoured against Control Warrior.
How we interpret the information is obviously the kicker here. I always favour data based on optimal play (the old SC2 "we won't nerf Marauders because they're OP in bronze, the counter is L2P"). I appreciate that for the average player Shaman vs Warrior will go the Warrior's way, but it is still the Shaman's match to lose (marginally) because they have the power to win more often than not if they can find the correct lines, and given more time I expect to see the win rates change as players become more aware of the different tricks the deck is capable of that can bring Control Warriors down.
Ultimately Control Warrior is a tried and tested deck with a relatively straightforward game plan that you follow in close to 100% of games, while Quest Shaman is young and a little more complex with a wider variety of paths to follow through a game. I believe once the player base have a little more practice with the deck, we'll see the statistics swing in the Shaman's favour.
I've beaten a few warriors but it can be tricky, and I'm not a good quest shaman pilot by any means. Interesting discussion guys. I would say from my limited experience and research that warrior in the majority of games is favored.
Hi my dood.
Quest Shaman is a very strong deck that can definately beat Control Warrior. It is also a very tough deck to navigate. There are lots of different combinations every turn and deciding which is strongest is very tough. But once you start understanding the matchup better, CW is very beatable.
Bunnyhoppor went as far as to say "this matchup is impossible for the Warrior" on stream yesterday. Although there aren't many people that are playing to his level so it will be tough to emulate this on a regular basis.