what do you guys think? With the prominence of lackeys creating spells and a lot of the meta decks including cards that create new cards ingame I feel more and more dissatisfied with discover cards and how they impact the overall outcome of a match. Sure it’s fun to discover something that helps you out and that spices up the match somehow. But it’s also really painful to watch an opponent weasel himself out of your gameplan. Especially when you don’t know what you are playing into and get painfully punished for not knowing. And you have no Chance to know it. What secret did the key maker put on the battlefield. Did omega assembly grant this warrior another devastator or is it mechatun? Can I play this infiltrator? Apparently not because he rushed its mechatun in my infiltrator when he was in fatigue. And hey guess what the key maker didn’t make counter spell so you wasted seance on a 1drop. It was mirror image all along, thx for the copied 8drop
And yeah I’m a bit salty right now. Lost a few matches in a row because I couldn’t guess right.
But it’s too much right now i think. These are just two examples. I saw shamans refill their hand with just 2 cards on being the murloc granting new Murlocs. I saw the puzzle boxes win matches on its own. And Warriors gameplan depends solely on discovering new mechs and taunts.
So what do you think? I wished there was a possibility to at least see what your opponent discovered or that this mechanic massively shrinks down in the next standard year.
That is literally the whole point of cards like Arcane Keysmith -- to make Secrets more viable by making them harder to play around. There is no point in calling it a Secret if everyone knows what it is and can easily play around it.
But this isn't just about Secrets -- this philosophy extends to all cards that create random cards. Part of their power (and this is included in the mana cost calculation) is that they give you a tiny scrap of hidden information in a game where everyone knows everyone else's decklist.
Knowing the meta is important, but it is not and should not be the only skill in Hearthstone. Being able to hedge against and react to a little surprise every now and then is often just as crucial.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I get that. But doesn’t this lead just to More discover cards in both decks. ‘My Opponent sure has discover cards which means I need also a card that can discover me an answer if needed’. Now the match has doubled up the randomness. This Spirals out into more and more randomness since everybody tries to be as flexible as possible. At the same time it gets more stale than you might think. Magic trick might be just better than to include any of the discovered options themselves. Oh my enemy plays Aggro, I just discover this oh my opponent plays control I just discover that. Suddenly this deck is not only good vs one but also vs both which means you will face this deck a lot more often. Look at the strong decks and count the cards that discover or create new cards in the match. Hunter, mage, warrior. They are all very flexible decks with multiple discover cards. Sorry my English is not on point but I hope you get what I mean.
But that isn't how it works. More discover effects won't automatically improve your deck, and it has nothing to do with whether or not your opponent has them.
As for your point about the flexibility of discover effect, as I mentioned, that's included in their mana cost. Discover is generally more expensive than generating a purely random card.
You seem to be combining two different complaints -- one about randomness, and another about extra value.
Do you favor slow control decks? Those always struggle against value-oriented midrange decks. You may hate me for suggesting it, but you'll have much better results against this type of deck if you switch to aggro.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It depends on the card I think. Sure even some discover cards are bad but some other are really well statted. Flunky taunt for example is just pretty good 2/2/2/Taunt. That’s nearly normal stats with the power to dictate the whole match included.
Yes there are 2 complaints. The value is just a minor problem in my opinion but the randomness is the real problem. How can you play around anything or have any tactic at all if everything can happen now in any match. The range became just too broad. I just remember that legendaries transformed minions into 1/1 OR 5/5. That was considered too much randomness 6 years ago. Start a match today and watch for the moment that the match becomes unpredictable in anyway. It’s probably turn 2 or 3 when the first discover card gets played .
We are not far away from crossroads tavernbrawl.
Thanks for the tip, but i just play everything. I actually don’t play many discover mechanics whether i play Aggro or control but I start feeling I have to.
Well, then, we're back to the fact that reading your opponent is not the only skill you need in this game. I agree that that was more important in the past, and it made for a game that got stale much more quickly as everyone learned exactly what to expect in every single matchup.
By injecting a bit of hidden information, these effects create a type of emergent gameplay. Emergent gameplay is generally considered a good thing, as it encourages the player to come up with creative solutions and employ problem-solving skills, rather than just following a rote strategy or algorithm.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
They're pretty much the only reason I still play this game. Playing out the same match over and over gets pretty dull and robotic. Discover and "add a random..." cards create fun new game states.
yes games got stale faster back then. But personally it promoted me to change a few cards in my deck more often to surprise my opponent.
But I guess I have no support on my opinion here and it’s ok. As long as people have fun with so many cards created Midgame the devs probably made the right choice.
That is literally the whole point of cards like Arcane Keysmith -- to make Secrets more viable by making them harder to play around. There is no point in calling it a Secret if everyone knows what it is and can easily play around it.
But this isn't just about Secrets -- this philosophy extends to all cards that create random cards. Part of their power (and this is included in the mana cost calculation) is that they give you a tiny scrap of hidden information in a game where everyone knows everyone else's decklist.
Knowing the meta is important, but it is not and should not be the only skill in Hearthstone. Being able to hedge against and react to a little surprise every now and then is often just as crucial.
100% this.
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Hon. BSc. Medical Physics University of Toronto Class of 2017
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what do you guys think? With the prominence of lackeys creating spells and a lot of the meta decks including cards that create new cards ingame I feel more and more dissatisfied with discover cards and how they impact the overall outcome of a match. Sure it’s fun to discover something that helps you out and that spices up the match somehow. But it’s also really painful to watch an opponent weasel himself out of your gameplan. Especially when you don’t know what you are playing into and get painfully punished for not knowing. And you have no Chance to know it. What secret did the key maker put on the battlefield. Did omega assembly grant this warrior another devastator or is it mechatun? Can I play this infiltrator? Apparently not because he rushed its mechatun in my infiltrator when he was in fatigue. And hey guess what the key maker didn’t make counter spell so you wasted seance on a 1drop. It was mirror image all along, thx for the copied 8drop
And yeah I’m a bit salty right now. Lost a few matches in a row because I couldn’t guess right.
But it’s too much right now i think. These are just two examples. I saw shamans refill their hand with just 2 cards on being the murloc granting new Murlocs. I saw the puzzle boxes win matches on its own. And Warriors gameplan depends solely on discovering new mechs and taunts.
So what do you think? I wished there was a possibility to at least see what your opponent discovered or that this mechanic massively shrinks down in the next standard year.
That is literally the whole point of cards like Arcane Keysmith -- to make Secrets more viable by making them harder to play around. There is no point in calling it a Secret if everyone knows what it is and can easily play around it.
But this isn't just about Secrets -- this philosophy extends to all cards that create random cards. Part of their power (and this is included in the mana cost calculation) is that they give you a tiny scrap of hidden information in a game where everyone knows everyone else's decklist.
Knowing the meta is important, but it is not and should not be the only skill in Hearthstone. Being able to hedge against and react to a little surprise every now and then is often just as crucial.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I get that. But doesn’t this lead just to More discover cards in both decks. ‘My Opponent sure has discover cards which means I need also a card that can discover me an answer if needed’. Now the match has doubled up the randomness. This Spirals out into more and more randomness since everybody tries to be as flexible as possible. At the same time it gets more stale than you might think. Magic trick might be just better than to include any of the discovered options themselves. Oh my enemy plays Aggro, I just discover this oh my opponent plays control I just discover that. Suddenly this deck is not only good vs one but also vs both which means you will face this deck a lot more often. Look at the strong decks and count the cards that discover or create new cards in the match. Hunter, mage, warrior. They are all very flexible decks with multiple discover cards. Sorry my English is not on point but I hope you get what I mean.
But that isn't how it works. More discover effects won't automatically improve your deck, and it has nothing to do with whether or not your opponent has them.
As for your point about the flexibility of discover effect, as I mentioned, that's included in their mana cost. Discover is generally more expensive than generating a purely random card.
You seem to be combining two different complaints -- one about randomness, and another about extra value.
Do you favor slow control decks? Those always struggle against value-oriented midrange decks. You may hate me for suggesting it, but you'll have much better results against this type of deck if you switch to aggro.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It depends on the card I think. Sure even some discover cards are bad but some other are really well statted. Flunky taunt for example is just pretty good 2/2/2/Taunt. That’s nearly normal stats with the power to dictate the whole match included.
Yes there are 2 complaints. The value is just a minor problem in my opinion but the randomness is the real problem. How can you play around anything or have any tactic at all if everything can happen now in any match. The range became just too broad. I just remember that legendaries transformed minions into 1/1 OR 5/5. That was considered too much randomness 6 years ago. Start a match today and watch for the moment that the match becomes unpredictable in anyway. It’s probably turn 2 or 3 when the first discover card gets played .
We are not far away from crossroads tavernbrawl.
Thanks for the tip, but i just play everything. I actually don’t play many discover mechanics whether i play Aggro or control but I start feeling I have to.
Well, then, we're back to the fact that reading your opponent is not the only skill you need in this game. I agree that that was more important in the past, and it made for a game that got stale much more quickly as everyone learned exactly what to expect in every single matchup.
By injecting a bit of hidden information, these effects create a type of emergent gameplay. Emergent gameplay is generally considered a good thing, as it encourages the player to come up with creative solutions and employ problem-solving skills, rather than just following a rote strategy or algorithm.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
They're pretty much the only reason I still play this game. Playing out the same match over and over gets pretty dull and robotic. Discover and "add a random..." cards create fun new game states.
Well then we have just different tastes.
yes games got stale faster back then. But personally it promoted me to change a few cards in my deck more often to surprise my opponent.
But I guess I have no support on my opinion here and it’s ok. As long as people have fun with so many cards created Midgame the devs probably made the right choice.
I‘ll ask in a few month again.
100% this.
Hon. BSc. Medical Physics
University of Toronto
Class of 2017