Ok, so I don't believe Galaxy is particularly broken or anything. I'm not really salty about the card; I just wanted to address why I think the buff was a mistake.
Having Galaxy on turns 4 or 5 feels a lot like having Barnes or Kalaseth on curve. It turns a normal game of Hearthstone into one that significantly tilts in one players favor. Many cards swing games, but most are not lynchpins of entire decks built around hoping to draw and play said cards on curve. It makes games significantly less fun in my opinion.
Another factor to this is the card's Legendary status. When an opponent coins out a Barnes, Kalaseth, or Galaxy, it feels cheesy. This is one of the problems with Hero cards that developers have been making progress on so I hope they consider the issue for other cards as well.
So no calls for nerfing the card or anything, just a plea to developers to consider this issue in the future.
I feel like most of the cards in the cyclone giant mage are straight up OP. Lunas on curve followed by Stargazer Luna that just goes insane by playing Giants for free, Kalecgos for 1, then Alex for 1 and freeze your board w Frost Nova feels so bad and uninteractive that it just pisses me. I don t want to brag about every good deck but Ihate when the game goes into a direction that you cant interact with. Mech hunter was really strong but at least you felt there was a play you could make to tilt the game to your favor. Unlike a mage who goes nothing om T1,2 then AI, T4 that spell which reduces the giant by 2, giant coin CC. Wtf could I have done in that game...
I mean it's not always instant concede but it is obviously a bit too powerful in freeze mage style decks that just constantly stop your opponent from interacting with your powerful board. Lot of highrolling in the deck there are definitely underlying cards that kinda make it more problematic like Ray of Frost and Mana Cyclone allowing them more card generation and also being able to freeze their opponents minions basically to not be able to deal with the boardstate for very cheap or for 0 mana with Sorcerer's Apprentice. I feel a nerf to the mana cost on Pocket Galaxy or making minions cost 2 as opposed to 1 would be fine but because Blizzard only just buffed the card it would seem like an "oopsie" on their behalf nerfing it again.
If they just reverted the mana cost of Luna's back to 7 then it would be fine, no early doomsayer, freeze into Lunas PG and actually makes running it and even playing it riskier.
I can see with Conjurers Calling if they don't touch Lunas is removing the twinspell (which they won't do) or it summons minions based on the cost of the card when you played it.
They've done heaps of oopsies as of late, Infinite Shudderwock being one of them and it was too late for them to make changes to the interactions when they first released because they are shit at testing their cards (this card required no testing to realise how broken it was), Elysiana is another oopsies for 8 mana, again who tests these card or even maps out the interactions during design? then there is the classic Genn and Baku, coincidentally enough all these designs all have been since Ben Brode departure
Luna's Pocket galaxy was virtually unplayable at 7 mana and is busted at 5 mana (apparently, i have yet to encounter it on curve) so maybe 6 mana would be a happy medium. Any nerf to Conjurer's Calling (that I've seen suggested anyway) would make the card completely unplayable. Removing mountain giant would make CC pretty much useless as well outside of really late game plays making it a really dead card most of the match. Mage is my main class but I played hunter most of last season because Oblivitron hunter was so fun. Right now the only thing propping mage up is Conjurer's Calling and Luna's Pocket galaxy which is making the class rather one dimensional, but this also means nerfing one or both of those cards could send mage to the gutter tier AGAIN which it just crawled out of from the last batch of nerfs -.-
I dunno I just want my favorite class to be fun and competitive again and not just one or the other
Any nerf to Luna's Pocket Galaxy (which is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion) would send the card back into uselessness again. It's only barely playable right now, because 5-mana-do-nothing-on-turn-5 is a HUGE tempo loss and that's the point of the card. The benefits are there to help you get back that tempo loss. If you nerfed it to 6 mana, it would be no different to when it was 7 - it's simply too late and expensive by that point.
Importantly, you should be dealing with the mage in the early stage before they get this card played - and that's assuming they high rolled to have it early enough to be useful in the first place. If they didn't, then the advantage is all yours. It's interesting that it seems to mainly be Control Warrior players that appear to have the biggest problem with this card because it directly counters their style of player.
Everyone wants mage and warrior to get nerfed. I could see conjurer and maybe pocket galaxy both being bumped by 1 mana so they will cost 4 and 6 mana respectively. I could also see brawl being bumped to 6 mana and maybe omega devastator to 5 mana. For wild, they really need to bump barnes to 5 or 6 mana.
Any nerf to Luna's Pocket Galaxy (which is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion) would send the card back into uselessness again. It's only barely playable right now, because 5-mana-do-nothing-on-turn-5 is a HUGE tempo loss and that's the point of the card. The benefits are there to help you get back that tempo loss.
The tempo loss would indeed be a downside if you tried to use Pocket Galaxy in a tempo deck.
But you don't use it in a tempo deck. You use it in a control deck that can probably clear or freeze the board on turn 5 or 6, so it's almost never a big deal to play Pocket Galaxy ASAP. As a control win condition (which it really is), it should cost at least (6).
So no, the tempo argument doesn't fly, and it was foolish of Team 5 to reduce the cost by (2). A two-mana shift is almost unheard of when nerfing cards, so I don't get why they would think it's OK when buffing one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
In fact most 1 mana nerfs completely change a card's viability. Bonemare, Spirit Claws, Fiery War Axe, Flametongue Totem and Mana Wyrm are examples of this. I don't see LPG as being the sole reason why Mage is so powerful right now. Yes, 1 mana alexstrasza is a bit bullshit but conjurer's calling and sheer overall high quality of the class cards allow it to really shine.
Any nerf to Luna's Pocket Galaxy (which is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion) would send the card back into uselessness again. It's only barely playable right now, because 5-mana-do-nothing-on-turn-5 is a HUGE tempo loss and that's the point of the card. The benefits are there to help you get back that tempo loss.
The tempo loss would indeed be a downside if you tried to use Pocket Galaxy in a tempo deck.
But you don't use it in a tempo deck. You use it in a control deck that can probably clear or freeze the board on turn 5 or 6, so it's almost never a big deal to play Pocket Galaxy ASAP. As a control win condition (which it really is), it should cost at least (6).
So no, the tempo argument doesn't fly, and it was foolish of Team 5 to reduce the cost by (2). A two-mana shift is almost unheard of when nerfing cards, so I don't get why they would think it's OK when buffing one.
Every deck has a “tempo”, a flow to the deck that it follows. Just because a deck doesnt rely on using tempo to its fullest to achieve its win condition (as in, a tempo deck) doesnt remove tempo from being a factor in how the deck plays. This is why the loss of tempo when you play Luna’s is made up for by the card’s reward.
That aside, as the previous poster pointed out, LPG isnt even what makes Mage that strong currently. Remove it from the mage deck and it doesnt cause too much problem. Remove Conjurer’s however, and then the deck will effectively fall apart.
But of course this discussion is about LPG, so I dont want to sidetrack it to being about CC.
Stats showcase that playing the card on turn 4 with coin or on turn 5 increases your chanses of victory by over 60% (according to hsreplay). So I don’t think it is that big of an tempo loss...
Stats showcase that playing the card on turn 4 with coin or on turn 5 increases your chanses of victory by over 60% (according to hsreplay). So I don’t think it is that big of an tempo loss...
Thats the point. The effect makes up for the tempo loss. That’s why the card works at its current cost. You forego tempo in the early game to gain an advantage in the late game.
If you want proof of this, consider how many games are won in the first 10 rounds compared to after 10 rounds. If there was no tempo loss, you would see vastly more games being won earlier than later.
If they just reverted the mana cost of Luna's back to 7 then it would be fine, no early doomsayer, freeze into Lunas PG and actually makes running it and even playing it riskier.
I can see with Conjurers Calling if they don't touch Lunas is removing the twinspell (which they won't do) or it summons minions based on the cost of the card when you played it.
They've done heaps of oopsies as of late, Infinite Shudderwock being one of them and it was too late for them to make changes to the interactions when they first released because they are shit at testing their cards (this card required no testing to realise how broken it was), Elysiana is another oopsies for 8 mana, again who tests these card or even maps out the interactions during design? then there is the classic Genn and Baku, coincidentally enough all these designs all have been since Ben Brode departure
Or maybe the right way of looking at it as that Blizzard has been more willing to look at their mistakes and fix them since Ben Brode's departure. There are a ton of shit cards that never get played (Millhouse, Illidan, etc.) and even when players like Kripp tried to argue in favor of buffing them Ben Brode's argument was that having shitty cards is a good way to teach newbies about what makes a good card.
well... it's broken and needs a nerf, since it's not just a "trade in tempo for a swing later" but the ability to drop MUCH stronger cards way before the curve would normally allow. Mana cheating is not healthy for the game and it's the reason mage is the most played with the highest winrate
ATTACHMENTS
Screen Shot 2019-08-15 at 2.24.00 PM
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
In fact most 1 mana nerfs completely change a card's viability. Bonemare, Spirit Claws, Fiery War Axe, Flametongue Totem and Mana Wyrm are examples of this. I don't see LPG as being the sole reason why Mage is so powerful right now. Yes, 1 mana alexstrasza is a bit bullshit but conjurer's calling and sheer overall high quality of the class cards allow it to really shine.
OK, I'll admit that "unheard of" is an exaggeration if you admit four cards equals "a ton." But thank you for illustrating that 2-mana adjustments have not happened very often!
I happen to think most mana-cheating cards are bad for the game, including both CC and LPG. The more mana you can cheat, the unhealthier the environment becomes. That's why I would be perfectly happy to see Galaxy bumped up to (6).
(As Scorp says, this thread isn't about CC, so I'm leaving that alone.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Every deck has a “tempo”, a flow to the deck that it follows. Just because a deck doesnt rely on using tempo to its fullest to achieve its win condition (as in, a tempo deck) doesnt remove tempo from being a factor in how the deck plays. This is why the loss of tempo when you play Luna’s is made up for by the card’s reward.
Yes, I know that tempo is part of the game. but for many decks, it truly doesn't matter enough in the early game at such a low mana cost.
Would you ever give a card like this to Warrior, even at 7 mana? I hope not. Control Warrior cares about tempo even less than Control Mage, and would not hesitate to play this on 7 every single time. That's why they play Dr. Boom on 7 every single time, despite the massive tempo loss.
The real tradeoff for this card is the deckbuilding concern. You have to pack as many big minions as you can without compromising your ability to control the early game.
That said, the tempo stakes increase dramatically as the game progresses. At turn 4, it's usually not a big deal at all for a control deck. By turn 7, it's fairly dangerous for any deck (except CW) to give up a full turn.
As we are seeing now, turn 5 is not dangerous enough for the control deck in many match-ups (especially when Reno can appear on turn 6). That's why some people are saying 6 mana might be a better place for LPG.
Would you ever give a card like this to Warrior, even at 7 mana? I hope not. Control Warrior cares about tempo even less than Control Mage, and would not hesitate to play this on 7 every single time. That's why they play Dr. Boom on 7 every single time, despite the massive tempo loss.
7-mana 13/13 worth of stats with a potential 24-damage the turn after, in what world is that a "massive tempo loss"?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Ok, so I don't believe Galaxy is particularly broken or anything. I'm not really salty about the card; I just wanted to address why I think the buff was a mistake.
Having Galaxy on turns 4 or 5 feels a lot like having Barnes or Kalaseth on curve. It turns a normal game of Hearthstone into one that significantly tilts in one players favor. Many cards swing games, but most are not lynchpins of entire decks built around hoping to draw and play said cards on curve. It makes games significantly less fun in my opinion.
Another factor to this is the card's Legendary status. When an opponent coins out a Barnes, Kalaseth, or Galaxy, it feels cheesy. This is one of the problems with Hero cards that developers have been making progress on so I hope they consider the issue for other cards as well.
So no calls for nerfing the card or anything, just a plea to developers to consider this issue in the future.
I feel like most of the cards in the cyclone giant mage are straight up OP. Lunas on curve followed by Stargazer Luna that just goes insane by playing Giants for free, Kalecgos for 1, then Alex for 1 and freeze your board w Frost Nova feels so bad and uninteractive that it just pisses me. I don t want to brag about every good deck but Ihate when the game goes into a direction that you cant interact with. Mech hunter was really strong but at least you felt there was a play you could make to tilt the game to your favor. Unlike a mage who goes nothing om T1,2 then AI, T4 that spell which reduces the giant by 2, giant coin CC. Wtf could I have done in that game...
I've been noticing that there are a lot of cheap wins in Hearthstone.
Well, you could have conceded earlier? lel
I mean it's not always instant concede but it is obviously a bit too powerful in freeze mage style decks that just constantly stop your opponent from interacting with your powerful board. Lot of highrolling in the deck there are definitely underlying cards that kinda make it more problematic like Ray of Frost and Mana Cyclone allowing them more card generation and also being able to freeze their opponents minions basically to not be able to deal with the boardstate for very cheap or for 0 mana with Sorcerer's Apprentice. I feel a nerf to the mana cost on Pocket Galaxy or making minions cost 2 as opposed to 1 would be fine but because Blizzard only just buffed the card it would seem like an "oopsie" on their behalf nerfing it again.
If they just reverted the mana cost of Luna's back to 7 then it would be fine, no early doomsayer, freeze into Lunas PG and actually makes running it and even playing it riskier.
I can see with Conjurers Calling if they don't touch Lunas is removing the twinspell (which they won't do) or it summons minions based on the cost of the card when you played it.
They've done heaps of oopsies as of late, Infinite Shudderwock being one of them and it was too late for them to make changes to the interactions when they first released because they are shit at testing their cards (this card required no testing to realise how broken it was), Elysiana is another oopsies for 8 mana, again who tests these card or even maps out the interactions during design? then there is the classic Genn and Baku, coincidentally enough all these designs all have been since Ben Brode departure
Luna's Pocket galaxy was virtually unplayable at 7 mana and is busted at 5 mana (apparently, i have yet to encounter it on curve) so maybe 6 mana would be a happy medium. Any nerf to Conjurer's Calling (that I've seen suggested anyway) would make the card completely unplayable. Removing mountain giant would make CC pretty much useless as well outside of really late game plays making it a really dead card most of the match. Mage is my main class but I played hunter most of last season because Oblivitron hunter was so fun. Right now the only thing propping mage up is Conjurer's Calling and Luna's Pocket galaxy which is making the class rather one dimensional, but this also means nerfing one or both of those cards could send mage to the gutter tier AGAIN which it just crawled out of from the last batch of nerfs -.-
I dunno I just want my favorite class to be fun and competitive again and not just one or the other
Any nerf to Luna's Pocket Galaxy (which is perfectly fine as it is, in my opinion) would send the card back into uselessness again. It's only barely playable right now, because 5-mana-do-nothing-on-turn-5 is a HUGE tempo loss and that's the point of the card. The benefits are there to help you get back that tempo loss.
If you nerfed it to 6 mana, it would be no different to when it was 7 - it's simply too late and expensive by that point.
Importantly, you should be dealing with the mage in the early stage before they get this card played - and that's assuming they high rolled to have it early enough to be useful in the first place. If they didn't, then the advantage is all yours.
It's interesting that it seems to mainly be Control Warrior players that appear to have the biggest problem with this card because it directly counters their style of player.
Everyone wants mage and warrior to get nerfed. I could see conjurer and maybe pocket galaxy both being bumped by 1 mana so they will cost 4 and 6 mana respectively. I could also see brawl being bumped to 6 mana and maybe omega devastator to 5 mana. For wild, they really need to bump barnes to 5 or 6 mana.
The tempo loss would indeed be a downside if you tried to use Pocket Galaxy in a tempo deck.
But you don't use it in a tempo deck. You use it in a control deck that can probably clear or freeze the board on turn 5 or 6, so it's almost never a big deal to play Pocket Galaxy ASAP. As a control win condition (which it really is), it should cost at least (6).
So no, the tempo argument doesn't fly, and it was foolish of Team 5 to reduce the cost by (2). A two-mana shift is almost unheard of when nerfing cards, so I don't get why they would think it's OK when buffing one.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Eh? Most cards that get nerfed get nuked out of orbit, 2 mana nerfs have happened a ton in the past.
Giggling Inventor
Blade Flurry
Equality
Naga Sea Witch
In fact most 1 mana nerfs completely change a card's viability. Bonemare, Spirit Claws, Fiery War Axe, Flametongue Totem and Mana Wyrm are examples of this. I don't see LPG as being the sole reason why Mage is so powerful right now. Yes, 1 mana alexstrasza is a bit bullshit but conjurer's calling and sheer overall high quality of the class cards allow it to really shine.
Every deck has a “tempo”, a flow to the deck that it follows. Just because a deck doesnt rely on using tempo to its fullest to achieve its win condition (as in, a tempo deck) doesnt remove tempo from being a factor in how the deck plays. This is why the loss of tempo when you play Luna’s is made up for by the card’s reward.
That aside, as the previous poster pointed out, LPG isnt even what makes Mage that strong currently. Remove it from the mage deck and it doesnt cause too much problem. Remove Conjurer’s however, and then the deck will effectively fall apart.
But of course this discussion is about LPG, so I dont want to sidetrack it to being about CC.
Stats showcase that playing the card on turn 4 with coin or on turn 5 increases your chanses of victory by over 60% (according to hsreplay). So I don’t think it is that big of an tempo loss...
Thats the point. The effect makes up for the tempo loss. That’s why the card works at its current cost. You forego tempo in the early game to gain an advantage in the late game.
If you want proof of this, consider how many games are won in the first 10 rounds compared to after 10 rounds. If there was no tempo loss, you would see vastly more games being won earlier than later.
Or maybe the right way of looking at it as that Blizzard has been more willing to look at their mistakes and fix them since Ben Brode's departure. There are a ton of shit cards that never get played (Millhouse, Illidan, etc.) and even when players like Kripp tried to argue in favor of buffing them Ben Brode's argument was that having shitty cards is a good way to teach newbies about what makes a good card.
well... it's broken and needs a nerf, since it's not just a "trade in tempo for a swing later" but the ability to drop MUCH stronger cards way before the curve would normally allow. Mana cheating is not healthy for the game and it's the reason mage is the most played with the highest winrate
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
OK, I'll admit that "unheard of" is an exaggeration if you admit four cards equals "a ton." But thank you for illustrating that 2-mana adjustments have not happened very often!
I happen to think most mana-cheating cards are bad for the game, including both CC and LPG. The more mana you can cheat, the unhealthier the environment becomes. That's why I would be perfectly happy to see Galaxy bumped up to (6).
(As Scorp says, this thread isn't about CC, so I'm leaving that alone.)
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Yes, I know that tempo is part of the game. but for many decks, it truly doesn't matter enough in the early game at such a low mana cost.
Would you ever give a card like this to Warrior, even at 7 mana? I hope not. Control Warrior cares about tempo even less than Control Mage, and would not hesitate to play this on 7 every single time. That's why they play Dr. Boom on 7 every single time, despite the massive tempo loss.
The real tradeoff for this card is the deckbuilding concern. You have to pack as many big minions as you can without compromising your ability to control the early game.
That said, the tempo stakes increase dramatically as the game progresses. At turn 4, it's usually not a big deal at all for a control deck. By turn 7, it's fairly dangerous for any deck (except CW) to give up a full turn.
As we are seeing now, turn 5 is not dangerous enough for the control deck in many match-ups (especially when Reno can appear on turn 6). That's why some people are saying 6 mana might be a better place for LPG.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Reduce the cost of the minions to 3 and the card is ok for 5 manas, 1 is too strong and fine when the card cost 7.
7-mana 13/13 worth of stats with a potential 24-damage the turn after, in what world is that a "massive tempo loss"?