Rather than Nerf Warrior, why not let other classes have good decks? Just looking at the classic set epic cards, Warrior has Brawl, Shield Slam, and Gorehowl. All these cards are played in control lists since the beginning and you're only not seeing Gorehowl now because Supercollider is significantly better in this meta and cards like Omega Devistator exist.
Classes like Rogue, Priest, and Warlock have cards that rarely (if ever) see play like Patient Assassin, Mind Games, and Pit Lord.
I understand the push from Blizzard for class identity, but these classes I've just mentioned need some changes to at least the classic set, much more than what has already been done. That or just remove the Classic set from standard. Rotation or not, big changes need to occur.
The only change they made to the Priest core set is one that made the set worse... Taking away one of their best basic set cards and replacing it with Radiance is just bad. That card won't ever see play.
The entirety of the priest quest is to heal to gain the hero power effect. Are you sure you are playing the same game? It is seeing play in Quest priest.
There are so many better heal options than Radiance. It won’t be run because it only heals hero. It is without a doubt the worst heal card that priest has. Quest priest isn’t focused solely on healing, but it does run healing cards. Having minions on the board against an opponent with a board makes Holy Nova followed by Circle of Healing complete the quest in a hurry.
Which brings me to the topic at hand. Control warrior’s biggest problem is that it beats every other control deck. There is no room for additional control decks because warrior does all of them better. It can out value any deck, remove any threat no matter the size, and last longer in a fatigue than any other deck. If control priest, paladin and mage all have weaknesses and lose to warrior, why would anyone play a control deck other than warrior?
It's not even a matter of power level at this point. It's just an extremely boring game every single time. The only thing that changes is how soon Dr. Boring comes out.
Kind of like the reason they HoF'ed Genn and Baku -- the games have too little variance.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
It's not even a matter of power level at this point. It's just an extremely boring game every single time. The only thing that changes is how soon Dr. Boring comes out.
Kind of like the reason they HoF'ed Genn and Baku -- the games have too little variance.
Isn't that the same for each and every metadeck? They are all the same. They all play the same way. You know what your opponent is going to do. You know which cards to hold or to play. They are all boring given enough time as they are ALL the same decks out there.
Im not a warrior player at all, but the fact is many on this Topic complain about warrior, for like 5 months there were only aggro decks around rank 10-5 and 1 control deck ,ONE just 1,standing against them . Now some players here will say "we couldn't play other control decks cause it just falls short of control warrior". Not true you could play other control decks but they just lost to agro way way more,and some control classes like priest jsut didn't get enough synergy cards. Your approach to nerf the ONLY CONTROL DECK stopping AGRO FLOOD is stupid . Control was always weak to OTK /Combo decks sadly we got none of those since the rotation and that's the issue we should be addressing. Instead of 4 archtypes OTK-Control-Midrange-Tempo we have 2and the 1 control deck ,SO not even 3
There seems to be a lot of salty people in this thread calling for drastic nerfs, it especially irks me when people in this thread call for nerfs to classic and basic warrior cards like Shield Slam
Personally i like metas where the top deck kinda lets you do what you want. Control warrior doesn't transform your units, mess with your hand or deck, steal your units, or even really pressure you until the lategame. So if there has to be a top deck, control warrior would be one of the best for the meta
However, i don't think there has to be a top deck, i think if balanced right all classes could have a tier 1 deck. So here would be my measured nerfs to mech control warrior. (and still allow for dragon control warrior)
Omega Assembly - nerf to 2 mana. One of the main problems about control warrior is that they have cards that give them tons of value against control decks, while not being all that bad against aggro. This change makes Omega Assembly into a liability against aggro decks
Omega Devastator - nerf to deal 6 damage. I've seen some crazy people talking about nerfing this card to as high as 8 mana. the only time this is a good card is when the condition is met, Chillwind Yeti hasn't been playable for a long time. so it makes no sense to nerf its mana. With Omega Devastator only dealing 6 damage it no longer deals with giants.
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius - The problem with this card is that it provides so much value against other control decks, that it makes other control decks that would normally outvalue warrior fail to outvalue warrior. So i'd change its discover a mech hero power into Discover a mech that costs 3 or less.
With these nerfs warrior would have to run greedier cards in order to combat other control decks which in turn would make warrior worse versus aggro.
To adress the people who were saying Dr. Boom, Mad Genius was a card to compensate warrior for there terrible death knight Scourgelord Garrosh, i totally agree. The other death knights were so game warping that it made warrior's DK seem obsolete. TBH i think that many of the death knights should be nerfed a little
Bloodreaver Gul'dan: "Battlecry: summon the two highest cost demons that died this game" (can include enemy demons)
It's not even a matter of power level at this point. It's just an extremely boring game every single time. The only thing that changes is how soon Dr. Boring comes out.
Kind of like the reason they HoF'ed Genn and Baku -- the games have too little variance.
Isn't that the same for each and every metadeck? They are all the same. They all play the same way. You know what your opponent is going to do. You know which cards to hold or to play. They are all boring given enough time as they are ALL the same decks out there.
Yet Genn and Baku were sent to Wild prematurely, although each of the Even/Odd decks fell under the same category. Do you really want us to sail into another four months of Control Warrior being the top dog while the deck barely runs new cards except for the new Taunt package? As he said, it's not a matter of powerlevel anymore and I'm inclined to agree with that. Other Control decks should have a chance to compete with Warrior in case a couple of nerfs arrive so Aggro decks won't reign supreme, that's for sure. Personally, I simply refuse to participate in another round of 30 minute snoozefests only to pray that Boom doesn't repeatedly roll the right heropower. Zul'jin and Hagatha haven't been able to shape the meta in such influential fashion although e.g. Hagatha can be used for almost 1,5 years. In the end it's very likely that Boom is going to be tweaked at least slightly, maybe in the form of changing Delivery Drone from discover to random mechs or lowering the amount of armor Blast Shield provides.
It's not even a matter of power level at this point. It's just an extremely boring game every single time. The only thing that changes is how soon Dr. Boring comes out.
Kind of like the reason they HoF'ed Genn and Baku -- the games have too little variance.
Isn't that the same for each and every metadeck? They are all the same. They all play the same way. You know what your opponent is going to do. You know which cards to hold or to play. They are all boring given enough time as they are ALL the same decks out there.
Yet Genn and Baku were sent to Wild prematurely, although each of the Even/Odd decks fell under the same category. Do you really want us to sail into another four months of Control Warrior being the top dog while the deck barely runs new cards except for the new Taunt package? As he said, it's not a matter of powerlevel anymore and I'm inclined to agree with that. Other Control decks should have a chance to compete with Warrior in case a couple of nerfs arrive so Aggro decks won't reign supreme, that's for sure. Personally, I simply refuse to participate in another round of 30 minute snoozefests only to pray that Boom doesn't repeatedly roll the right heropower. Zul'jin and Hagatha haven't been able to shape the meta in such influential fashion although e.g. Hagatha can be used for almost 1,5 years. In the end it's very likely that Boom is going to be tweaked at least slightly, maybe in the form of changing Delivery Drone from discover to random mechs or lowering the amount of armor Blast Shield provides.
Dude wall of words is tough to read. Good to break it up.
There is nothing wrong with control warrior unless you are playing a flunky lackey deck or aggro. I have no issue beating CW and I get beat when I play CW.
Eternium Rover could be 2 mana but I personally don't find it that oppressive at 1 mana. Town Crier is fine IMHO. Brawl is too RNG-based to deserve HOF, but it could have its cost increased. As for Dr. Boom, he would could be fairly nerfed by just removing the rush on mechs or decreasing the likelihood of getting Blast Shield. They could also nerf Omega Devastator to cost more mana, or decrease the likelihood of getting it from Delivery Drone.
Other than that I can't think of anything. Control Warrior doesn't get me that often so I don't know what other suggestions to offer.
Every super powerful deck with way too many favourable matchups (like CW right now) should be terminated by Blizzard's nerf hammer on the spot! Not because it's invincible, unbeatable or whatever. It's because those decks prevents other decks from existing.
Very often it's like: Why would you play deck X and spend more than 10k dust on it (HS has become damn expensive), if you won't be able to beat very popular deck Y, which you will probably face more often on ladder, than you would like? You won't, it's pointless. On the other hand, however, when there are no top dogs with a dominant position in the meta, there is always more room for diversity which we all want. Without diversity this game is boring and stale, and that's why many pro players are leaving it behind (like Savjz or recently Hafu and Disguised Toast).
HS repeats the same mistakes over and over and nothing changes, which is incredibly tiring and boring. One deck pushes the others and we stay with 3-4 dominant decks in the meta, while the rest goes to the niche.
Yeah let's nerf brawl and shield slam instead of addressing the hero cards problem just like when we nerfed fiery war axe in attempt to fix pirate warrior ^_^
win axe was actually the highest winrate card in CW as well. I'm fine with the nerf since the snowballing mana wyrm (nerf) and tunnel trogg (wild) no longer see play even in wild. But I agree Hero cards are the problem since only 3 of the 9 classes have them, its gives them a massive boost. Add to that warrior has the best removal package and with the best Hero in standard its understandable why the class is so far above others.
But I do agree we should avoid nerfing other cards like rover/town crier. Yes, they are strong, but they are a core early game piece of other warrior decks as well. I'm playing tempo warrior, and without any other good 1-drops I would just get crushed by aggro. Every other class has at the very least a strong 1-drop in or the ability to take advantage of a neutral minion better than warrior can.
Yeah let's nerf brawl and shield slam instead of addressing the hero cards problem just like when we nerfed fiery war axe in attempt to fix pirate warrior ^_^
But I do agree we should avoid nerfing other cards like rover/town crier. Yes, they are strong, but they are a core early game piece of other warrior decks as well. I'm playing tempo warrior, and without any other good 1-drops I would just get crushed by aggro. Every other class has at the very least a strong 1-drop in or the ability to take advantage of a neutral minion better than warrior can.
It's a good thing all the scrubs wanting to nerf Eternium Rover and Town Crier are inconsequential here and anywhere for the matter.
@Python_productI agree with your drift on the heroes. Now that the new Druid quest actually produces a passive hero power, I think there's an opportunity here to bring some consistency to the game: A hero card should have a passive or an active hero power, but not both. Frost Lich Jaina and Dr. Boom Mad Genius effectively have two hero powers (all your elementals have lifesteal + create a water elemental; all your mechs have rush + random good stuff).
I realize that technically these have "for the rest of the game" battlecries, but I think they really ought to revise this mechanic. In MTG they at least started giving players "emblems" so that something permanent remained that was tied to these permanent static effects. In the case of these hero cards, it'd be easy to change FLJ's one-time battlecry and icy touch to "summon a water elemental with lifesteal" and DBMG's microsquad to "summon 3 1/1 mechs with rush" while removing the permanent battlecry effects (which flavor-wise act as passive hero powers).
I know the odds of them nerfing a wild card like FLJ seem slim, but the hero power consistency issue might be a good enough rationale for them. If they can work up the nerve to do it, then it might be warranted to nerf down other aspects of other hero cards to date in order to balance the power level, particularly Rexxar and Gul'dan like you mentioned.
One way to nerf Dr.Boom is to change his Battlecry into one of his hero powers. Something like "Friendly Mechs have Rush this turn". That would decrease the chance of a highroll by increasing the amount of rotating hero powers and give a chance for the opponent to play around the rush mechs.
Boom just needs to go to HoF. That’s the only solution for the card, or else make six even more busted hero cards. Stop making hero cards, they were the reason KotFT was over powered and they are the problem now. It’s just too powerful of an effect for this game.
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Rather than Nerf Warrior, why not let other classes have good decks? Just looking at the classic set epic cards, Warrior has Brawl, Shield Slam, and Gorehowl. All these cards are played in control lists since the beginning and you're only not seeing Gorehowl now because Supercollider is significantly better in this meta and cards like Omega Devistator exist.
Classes like Rogue, Priest, and Warlock have cards that rarely (if ever) see play like Patient Assassin, Mind Games, and Pit Lord.
I understand the push from Blizzard for class identity, but these classes I've just mentioned need some changes to at least the classic set, much more than what has already been done. That or just remove the Classic set from standard. Rotation or not, big changes need to occur.
The only change they made to the Priest core set is one that made the set worse...
Taking away one of their best basic set cards and replacing it with Radiance is just bad.
That card won't ever see play.
The entirety of the priest quest is to heal to gain the hero power effect. Are you sure you are playing the same game? It is seeing play in Quest priest.
There are so many better heal options than Radiance. It won’t be run because it only heals hero. It is without a doubt the worst heal card that priest has. Quest priest isn’t focused solely on healing, but it does run healing cards. Having minions on the board against an opponent with a board makes Holy Nova followed by Circle of Healing complete the quest in a hurry.
Which brings me to the topic at hand. Control warrior’s biggest problem is that it beats every other control deck. There is no room for additional control decks because warrior does all of them better. It can out value any deck, remove any threat no matter the size, and last longer in a fatigue than any other deck. If control priest, paladin and mage all have weaknesses and lose to warrior, why would anyone play a control deck other than warrior?
i have a suggestion:
GET GOOD !
play some mage or quest pala and farm CW
Remove fucking dr boom from the game please
It's not even a matter of power level at this point. It's just an extremely boring game every single time. The only thing that changes is how soon Dr. Boring comes out.
Kind of like the reason they HoF'ed Genn and Baku -- the games have too little variance.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Isn't that the same for each and every metadeck? They are all the same. They all play the same way. You know what your opponent is going to do. You know which cards to hold or to play. They are all boring given enough time as they are ALL the same decks out there.
Im not a warrior player at all, but the fact is many on this Topic complain about warrior, for like 5 months there were only aggro decks around rank 10-5 and 1 control deck ,ONE just 1,standing against them . Now some players here will say "we couldn't play other control decks cause it just falls short of control warrior". Not true you could play other control decks but they just lost to agro way way more,and some control classes like priest jsut didn't get enough synergy cards. Your approach to nerf the ONLY CONTROL DECK stopping AGRO FLOOD is stupid . Control was always weak to OTK /Combo decks sadly we got none of those since the rotation and that's the issue we should be addressing. Instead of 4 archtypes OTK-Control-Midrange-Tempo we have 2 and the 1 control deck ,SO not even 3
There seems to be a lot of salty people in this thread calling for drastic nerfs, it especially irks me when people in this thread call for nerfs to classic and basic warrior cards like Shield Slam
Personally i like metas where the top deck kinda lets you do what you want. Control warrior doesn't transform your units, mess with your hand or deck, steal your units, or even really pressure you until the lategame. So if there has to be a top deck, control warrior would be one of the best for the meta
However, i don't think there has to be a top deck, i think if balanced right all classes could have a tier 1 deck. So here would be my measured nerfs to mech control warrior. (and still allow for dragon control warrior)
With these nerfs warrior would have to run greedier cards in order to combat other control decks which in turn would make warrior worse versus aggro.
To adress the people who were saying Dr. Boom, Mad Genius was a card to compensate warrior for there terrible death knight Scourgelord Garrosh, i totally agree. The other death knights were so game warping that it made warrior's DK seem obsolete. TBH i think that many of the death knights should be nerfed a little
Bloodreaver Gul'dan: "Battlecry: summon the two highest cost demons that died this game" (can include enemy demons)
Frost Lich Jaina: only gives Water Elementals lifesteal
Nerf the discover mechanic to limit class cards in your choices.
Yet Genn and Baku were sent to Wild prematurely, although each of the Even/Odd decks fell under the same category. Do you really want us to sail into another four months of Control Warrior being the top dog while the deck barely runs new cards except for the new Taunt package? As he said, it's not a matter of powerlevel anymore and I'm inclined to agree with that. Other Control decks should have a chance to compete with Warrior in case a couple of nerfs arrive so Aggro decks won't reign supreme, that's for sure. Personally, I simply refuse to participate in another round of 30 minute snoozefests only to pray that Boom doesn't repeatedly roll the right heropower. Zul'jin and Hagatha haven't been able to shape the meta in such influential fashion although e.g. Hagatha can be used for almost 1,5 years. In the end it's very likely that Boom is going to be tweaked at least slightly, maybe in the form of changing Delivery Drone from discover to random mechs or lowering the amount of armor Blast Shield provides.
Dude wall of words is tough to read.
Good to break it up.
There is nothing wrong with control warrior unless you are playing a flunky lackey deck or aggro. I have no issue beating CW and I get beat when I play CW.
It's actually extremely Easy,either
learn to play your deck towards it's strength
Or
start playing any sort of deathrattle focused deck (e.g. quest pally)
CW Is really strong right now but it's archetype forces a lot of big weaknesses on It,if you can't play towards those you deserve to lose
To answer your question: you don't
Eternium Rover could be 2 mana but I personally don't find it that oppressive at 1 mana. Town Crier is fine IMHO. Brawl is too RNG-based to deserve HOF, but it could have its cost increased. As for Dr. Boom, he would could be fairly nerfed by just removing the rush on mechs or decreasing the likelihood of getting Blast Shield. They could also nerf Omega Devastator to cost more mana, or decrease the likelihood of getting it from Delivery Drone.
Other than that I can't think of anything. Control Warrior doesn't get me that often so I don't know what other suggestions to offer.
Every super powerful deck with way too many favourable matchups (like CW right now) should be terminated by Blizzard's nerf hammer on the spot! Not because it's invincible, unbeatable or whatever. It's because those decks prevents other decks from existing.
Very often it's like: Why would you play deck X and spend more than 10k dust on it (HS has become damn expensive), if you won't be able to beat very popular deck Y, which you will probably face more often on ladder, than you would like? You won't, it's pointless. On the other hand, however, when there are no top dogs with a dominant position in the meta, there is always more room for diversity which we all want. Without diversity this game is boring and stale, and that's why many pro players are leaving it behind (like Savjz or recently Hafu and Disguised Toast).
HS repeats the same mistakes over and over and nothing changes, which is incredibly tiring and boring. One deck pushes the others and we stay with 3-4 dominant decks in the meta, while the rest goes to the niche.
win axe was actually the highest winrate card in CW as well. I'm fine with the nerf since the snowballing mana wyrm (nerf) and tunnel trogg (wild) no longer see play even in wild. But I agree Hero cards are the problem since only 3 of the 9 classes have them, its gives them a massive boost. Add to that warrior has the best removal package and with the best Hero in standard its understandable why the class is so far above others.
But I do agree we should avoid nerfing other cards like rover/town crier. Yes, they are strong, but they are a core early game piece of other warrior decks as well. I'm playing tempo warrior, and without any other good 1-drops I would just get crushed by aggro. Every other class has at the very least a strong 1-drop in or the ability to take advantage of a neutral minion better than warrior can.
It's a good thing all the scrubs wanting to nerf Eternium Rover and Town Crier are inconsequential here and anywhere for the matter.
The weapon smith:
2 mana 1/2 neutral.
Battlecry: if your opponent has 10 armour or more, summon a 7/7 construct.
Dr. Boom HOF/Remove the Discover option, Shield Slam spends your armor, Warpath 3 mana
f2p btw
@Python_product I agree with your drift on the heroes. Now that the new Druid quest actually produces a passive hero power, I think there's an opportunity here to bring some consistency to the game: A hero card should have a passive or an active hero power, but not both. Frost Lich Jaina and Dr. Boom Mad Genius effectively have two hero powers (all your elementals have lifesteal + create a water elemental; all your mechs have rush + random good stuff).
I realize that technically these have "for the rest of the game" battlecries, but I think they really ought to revise this mechanic. In MTG they at least started giving players "emblems" so that something permanent remained that was tied to these permanent static effects. In the case of these hero cards, it'd be easy to change FLJ's one-time battlecry and icy touch to "summon a water elemental with lifesteal" and DBMG's microsquad to "summon 3 1/1 mechs with rush" while removing the permanent battlecry effects (which flavor-wise act as passive hero powers).
I know the odds of them nerfing a wild card like FLJ seem slim, but the hero power consistency issue might be a good enough rationale for them. If they can work up the nerve to do it, then it might be warranted to nerf down other aspects of other hero cards to date in order to balance the power level, particularly Rexxar and Gul'dan like you mentioned.
One way to nerf Dr.Boom is to change his Battlecry into one of his hero powers. Something like "Friendly Mechs have Rush this turn". That would decrease the chance of a highroll by increasing the amount of rotating hero powers and give a chance for the opponent to play around the rush mechs.
Boom just needs to go to HoF. That’s the only solution for the card, or else make six even more busted hero cards. Stop making hero cards, they were the reason KotFT was over powered and they are the problem now. It’s just too powerful of an effect for this game.