Hearthpwn

This is a thing I've been thinking about recently. Armor is one of the harder things in the game to play around. The only way to actually remove it is damage, while other things like minions, health, and weapons have alternative methods of removal or transformation. Add in that some classes historically become oppressive when they can generate too much armor, like Druid or Warrior at points in time, and it makes sense for the mechanic to have a some sort of counter play added.

Sounds like someones aggro deck didn’t work. There is supposed to be a balance. Aggro > Tempo > Control > Aggro. The problem with control warrior isn’t the armor it’s the Boom hero cards value generation. Not sure what Druid deck played now days gets obscene levels of armor unless you mean the linecracker combo in wild and that deck should be dead by turn 9 always.

TLDR armor isn’t the problem. Boom will rotate and controls warrior will return to a tier 2-3 deck.

The problem is, if you get to low health, like 5 for example and then recover by armoring up, one single card would probably fuck you up then. The benefit of amor is that it can stack, putting you above "30 health", the negative side is that amor only works on your hero. Heals can work on minions. I agree a counterplay would be nice, for example in K&C where the warrior had to spend his armor for AoE, that imo was balanced.

Quote from rogerdodger >>

Sounds like someones aggro deck didn’t work. There is supposed to be a balance. Aggro > Tempo > Control > Aggro. The problem with control warrior isn’t the armor it’s the Boom hero cards value generation. Not sure what Druid deck played now days gets obscene levels of armor unless you mean the linecracker combo in wild and that deck should be dead by turn 9 always.

TLDR armor isn’t the problem. Boom will rotate and controls warrior will return to a tier 2-3 deck.

 

 

 

I wasn't actually thinking of a current druid deck, I tried to make clear that I was also looking backwards. I believe if you had read a little more attentively, you would have picked up on that. Think Druid in K&C.  

Yeah, Control Warrior is the new hotness, but the game has existed for a long time, sweetie. 

It should also be noted that this wasn't brought on by any specific frustration with the ladder. I haven't actually run into a control warrior since Tuesday. I just wanted to open a dialogue about the lack of counter play for armor.

You guys can twist it and turn it any way you like: Warrior is busted right now.

It got good cards in the year of the Raven, and then it got MORE good cards in the last 2 expansions. No other class is in that position right now.

Warrior win rates are sky high, and it will stay that way until either Team 5 nerfes something, or stuff rotates.

P.S. People are currently experimenting with stuff, but as warrior decks get refined, they WILL become even more powerful. This goes for every class, but looking at the cards Warrior got this expansion, one can`t help feeling that there is a lot more room for improvement of an already very strong class.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

Armor doesn't need any more specific Tech. Armor, like Hero Health, is already susceptible to action by every kind of non-restricted damage sources.

It is also susceptible to Destroy Enemy Hero Effects.

Tech Cards tend to be made for specific mechanics that the player has a hard time interacting with.

Weapon cannot just be dealt with without specific cards. Hand management same. Minion Abilities require specific actions like Silence or Transformation. It is how Techs work.

Armor, there is nothing different about it from Hero Health aside from two aspects (Armour doesn't replace Health if there is no Hero Health and also, Armour is not limited, it can be increased to any amount.) 

You just need to use the same interactions you use when you deplete the Health of the Hero...

 But the unlimited nature of Armor changes it to the point where it is not exactly comparable to health. I know how much health my opponent can have, and can build that into a game plan. The same is not true for armor. You can have a game plan to deplete 30 health, you cannot have a game plan to deal with an exceptional or unlimited amount of armor. The only solution is to deal with it beforehand, and beat face before they can generate it. Once it is up, there is no room for counterplay.

To be clear, I have no easy solution for this. I'm not a game designer, just a hearthstone enthusiast. It's just something I'd like to see.

I think the problem is not armor itself, but armor-related cards that are/were busted, like baku/justicar in warrior, branching paths in druid, etc. Druid's armor got problematic in KnC because it had too many ways to obtain it and they were all amazing: howl, branching paths, dk, UI, etc. If they didn't have all of those tools at once it wouldn't have been a problem imo.

It's more about cards that do too much for their mana cost, regardless of their effect.

Quote from Dr4i20 >>

Armor is already a tech to damage...would be stupid to tech armor xD

 Disagree. Having a response to a counter move is a key piece of many competitive games, and allows for more complex levels of strategy. 

For example, in Pokemon entry hazards are a counter for switching. Rapid spin is a counter for entry hazards. Ghost immunity is a counter for Rapid spin. The layers of things that you can do make for a more dynamic experience.

Quote from BiliPiton >>

You guys can twist it and turn it any way you like: Warrior is busted right now.

I think nobody here is disagreeing with that, this thread is about armor, which is not the ultimate source of warrior's brokenness.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

People are too emotional and demand the wrong actions way too often.

Warrior being powerful at the moment isn't a reason to ruin the Armor mechanic or even do something as absurd as provide a Tech card that easily destroys the balance of mechanics and classes.

Armor is a Warrior mechanic, that also bleeds into a few other classes to lesser degrees. Do you know what creating a specifically designed card to obliterate most of the strategies of a class does? It removes that class from the pool of playable classes in the game.

If Blizzard were to create a Tech card removing all Armor, for example, the Warrior class, specifically any strategy that doesn't just SMOrc, is no longer viable. It's a one card disable an entire group of strategies.

Not saying it cannot be done properly, it can, but you need to ensure the work required to activate such a strong effect is also proportional to the effort the player put into gathering the Armor. If you want something like a Four Horsemen requirement, or an Azari requirement, it can be doable, because there is a proper cost to such a strong effect. You just cannot make it something like an Ooze.

Completely agree. Compare AI and shield block for instance. You're sacrificing draw to gain 5 armor. Or the warrior heropower with any other: you're sacrificing controlling the board/face damage/draw to gain armor. You can't just make a card that undermines that, it would ruin the class as a whole.

Depends on the stuff.  Massive armor destruction is probably a bad idea, but smaller effects (a weapon, minion, or spell which destroyed 3-5 armor, in addition to an almost-good-enough effect) wouldn't be bad.

Relatedly, I think armor should cap at 30.  That's still a lot, but it'd prevent things from getting super out-of-hand.

As to enabling better strategies for dealing 30 damage in one go?  F*** that.  OTK strategies are kinda the worst.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

People are too emotional and demand the wrong actions way too often.

Warrior being powerful at the moment isn't a reason to ruin the Armor mechanic or even do something as absurd as provide a Tech card that easily destroys the balance of mechanics and classes.

Armor is a Warrior mechanic, that also bleeds into a few other classes to lesser degrees. Do you know what creating a specifically designed card to obliterate most of the strategies of a class does? It removes that class from the pool of playable classes in the game.

If Blizzard were to create a Tech card removing all Armor, for example, the Warrior class, specifically any strategy that doesn't just SMOrc, is no longer viable. It's a one card disable an entire group of strategies.

Not saying it cannot be done properly, it can, but you need to ensure the work required to activate such a strong effect is also proportional to the effort the player put into gathering the Armor. If you want something like a Four Horsemen requirement, or an Azari requirement, it can be doable, because there is a proper cost to such a strong effect. You just cannot make it something like an Ooze.

Anyone that knows me would find this funny. I'm the Freeze Mage fanatic, I'm the guy who plays way too much with that deck, I crafted fully golden decks for all servers, I'm the one that would benefit the most from a Tech card the obliterates Armor, yet I can explain very easily the problem with such a thing, how can you not see it?

 I'm not sure who you made this argument for, but it does not seem to be me. I didn't say I want a low effort hate card, and I'm not making an emotional demand. I'm stating a thing I'd like to see the design team consider in the future. As I've said eariler, I am not a designer, so I have no idea how to might be balanced in terms of build and cost. But naturally, if it existed, I would want it to be proportional.

The only thing I could think of would be something like an Alexstrasza effect that would cut the armor to say 15, or whatever number.  I agree that it's not the main problem with warrior, but sometimes that random HP lands on 7 armor a lot over a 30 turn game.  IMHO the Dr. Boom hero card should limit it's rush mechanic to the microbots and it's discover a mech HP....not all mechs.

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

Quote from Tamika_Olivia >>

 But the unlimited nature of Armor changes it to the point where it is not exactly comparable to health. I know how much health my opponent can have, and can build that into a game plan. The same is not true for armor. You can have a game plan to deplete 30 health, you cannot have a game plan to deal with an exceptional or unlimited amount of armor. The only solution is to deal with it beforehand, and beat face before they can generate it. Once it is up, there is no room for counterplay.

 

To be clear, I have no easy solution for this. I'm not a game designer, just a hearthstone enthusiast. It's just something I'd like to see.

 You cannot have a game plan that can deal with all possible strategies the opponent will have, and you should be able to. That is the point, otherwise, if you can do that, why would players play anything else?

If your deck is capable of dealing with everything, that is the only deck that will be played, that is the only deck you need no matter what happens.

People seem to think they should be able to beat any strategy no matter what they are using, that is not the case.

This is a STRATEGY Card Game, with the Strategy part not actually referring to the plan you use during the specific game you are playing, but the Strategy of your deck, that is the Strategy part.

You build a Strategy, so does your opponent, and they will collide in a specific manner because they have their strengths and weaknesses.

Sometimes, those strategies will collide in a manner that leaves you in a nearly or actually impossible position to win. That is not a problem, it is just the manner in which they interact. If you don't like that, you change the Strategy, that way, when they collide, they do so in a different manner.

If your deck has a limited amount of damage, against an opponent with an unlimited amount of Health or Armor, you need to change to a strategy that doesn't have a limited amount of damage.

 Again, you seem to be arguing with a phantom. I don't believe that I should be able to have a deck with an answer to everything. I think, rather, that there should be a card pool that has adequate answers for most things. And that the game should be about building a deck that is going to be able to answer certain threats, while also being ill prepared for others. 

I'm also saying that right now it seems as though there is one answer for armor, damage. Because damage is also used to answer other threats, its power to answer armor is diluted. I'd like to see another answer in lieu of damage, to increase the interactivity of armor. 

Quote from DiamondDM13 >>

Quote from Tamika_Olivia >>

 I'm not sure who you made this argument for, but it does not seem to be me. I didn't say I want a low effort hate card, and I'm not making an emotional demand. I'm stating a thing I'd like to see the design team consider in the future. As I've said eariler, I am not a designer, so I have no idea how to might be balanced in terms of build and cost. But naturally, if it existed, I would want it to be proportional.

 Well, although it wasn't just for you, you did make an emotional demand.

Quote from Tamika_Olivia >>

Armor is one of the harder things in the game to play around. Add in that some classes historically become oppressive when they can generate too much armor, like Druid or Warrior at points in time, and it makes sense for the mechanic to have a some sort of counter play added.

 You made the wrong claim that it was one of the harder things in the game to play around, which is extremely incorrect. As already stated, it is on par with Hero Health with regards to interaction, and just for reference, Hero Health is the most easy thing to play around with in the game, very few restrictions exist limiting interactions with Hero Health or Armor.

And you made the emotional claim that they become oppressive when they generate too much Armor. I say emotional, because this is what you, and no doubt some other players, feel. You feel that Warrior and Druid is oppressive to you because they can generate Armor and that interferes with your ability to win.

They aren't, or haven't been oppressive. They will counter you, very often if you are like me and like to play OTKs and Damage limited decks, but that doesn't them oppressive, they just happen to use strategies that you are weak against.

It is kind of hard to argue something like Armor is oppressive when, like Hero Health, it is the easiest thing in the game for you to interact with, it is completely at your mercy.

Anyway, since you agree with having a proper proportional requirement if such a Tech were implemented, I have no issues with it.

Usually, whenever you see people complaining and requesting Tech, they almost always request for easy to operate Tech which can easily be slotted into any deck and not have an impact of whatever strategy they are operating, and this is always bad design. You should never be able to just disable an entire opponent strategy by simply slotting a card in your deck without consideration or impact on your own deck. There always needs to be a proportional cost to it.

 If you have an issue with my points, argue against them. If you think I'm wrong about a characterization of a mechanic, point out where I'm wrong. But being wrong or mischaracterizing something is not inherently emotional. And to fall back to that position to dismiss me out of hand, and to strawman my arguments, is annoying and gross. If you think someone is being emotional, cool, but even if they are, it does not speak to the veracity of their arguments. To argue otherwise is fallacious. Now, if I call you an ass... would that be too emotional?

Quote from Baldarich >>

Salty aggro player detected

 Sweetie, learn to read. I don't play aggro, this wasn't in response to anything specific, and I don't get salty about a card game I play on the toilet. I do get a bit salty about annoying internet goblins assuming my motives and emotions.

In theory, I would agree with the idea, but in practice not really.

Theoretically speaking, the big advantage of armor compared to health is that it has no limit. That way, Warrior or Druid have a much bigger potential to outlast aggressive strategies compared to classes that usually only have health regeneration like Priest or Shaman. Another big advantage is that armor is easier to utilize. One of Priest's biggest flaws (and once again highlighted by the new quest) is that health can only be restored if you are missing health, while armor can be stacked at any point in the game, making health-restoring effects purely reactive and situational. While Shield Block or Bash will have their full effect at any point, the lifesteal property of Penance for example is meaningless if you are at full health anyway. Warrior's hero power will always do something, even if the effect is weak, while Priest is the only class with a hero power that oftentimes will do nothing at all. So in theory, armor has a big upside over health, and would warrant tech cards.

In practice, however, Warrior is the only class with reliable access to armor. Outside of Kobolds and Catacombs, Druid can generate much less armor, and their only benefit from armor gain is that it supports their combo potential. Especially compared to Warrior, Druid is a pretty weak control class. From recent expansions, it looks like the developers like Druid better with health regeneration than armor, and armor gain from neutral cards like Plated Beetle or things like hero cards is generally negligible.

So, just for (typically) one class with a strength in armor gain, I don't think neutral or class specific anti-armor tech is warranted. If armor was a strong ongoing theme in Druid and possibly another class like Paladin (as introduced by High Priest Thekal), it would be similar to Secrets; a strength of several classes that you should be able to tech against.

But for the time being, armor is mostly a Warrior-exclusive theme. A more reasonable approach from the balancing team would be to consider armor gain as more of an upside in Warrior that has to limit its other strengths. In other words, if Warrior is really good with stacking armor, they need some more downsides to balance it out. Currently, armor is a bit too strong in Warrior since it sits on top of powerful board clearing effects and very powerful minion-based removal and a ridiculous hero card.

Conceptionally, armor is a strength in Warrior because of their weapons. Warriors are supposed to have more health, since they need to rely on their weapons to take out minions. But aside from Supercollider and maybe some aggressive builds, Warriors rarely even use weapons anymore, since their spells and minions and their hero card do all the work. And I think that the nerf of Fiery War Axe has much to do with that. So, instead of introducing armor tech, I would suggest that Warrior should be forced to make more use of weapons again, so that armor gain naturally balances itself out by Warrior needing more armor, and not have it as a pure luxury on top of their premium removal tools where they don't need to take any damage.

If Warrior bothers you right now... well, I think a nerf is pretty likely to happen this expansion. If Team5 should do the sensible thing (unlikely), they won't destroy the class fundamentally, and instead help out other classes to beat Warrior this year, maybe with another buff patch, because next year, Boomsday Project will rotate out, and without that support, I think RoS Warrior is MUCH more manageable, even with Omega Devastator remaining.

People, THIS is how you discuss things on a forum; passionate yet civil. Just wanted to say that.

On topic, I think armor can be problematic, and Reckless Flurry was one of the best cards to show how T5 should handle armor. Shield Slam should work the same. It makes the mechanic still very good, but you'd at least have to think about when and how to use these cards.

I would like anti-armor tech card, at least they could just bring old Alexstrasza back.