I HOPE he considers the Hand, because otherwise the card would really miss lethal even more often. The scenario was quite easy:
Opponent was on 4 Health. I could use my Hunter Hero Power as well as Baited Arrow to end the game. Just for fun I used Zephrys first and he offered me MCT and other minions, that would not finish off my opponent. I assume that he knew, that I already had lethal and therefore did not give me something like Arcane Shot or Frostbolt...
Therefore he absolutely needs to consider the own hand or the whole mechanic is just not as „perfect“ as described.
First of all: "Perfect" is as much flavor text as it is thematic. It's like the boombot Warning on Dr. Boom.
Second: it's been expressed multiple times by the Team that Zephrys does not know what's in your hand. It only has access to information that both players are able to see at all times. (I.e minions and weapons on the board, and numbers of secrets, health and cards of each player.) That isn't going to change because there's so many cards in your hand that you could be waiting to hold for later: Zephyrs isn't going to have time to figure out which ones you want to hold to. It's much more important for him to figure out what he can do right now for the board state.
If you say he offered MC tech: my guess is that there was either a taunt minion on the opposing side, or you had no board, so he assumed you would want defense. He probably would've given lethal if you hero powered first, because he would recognise you were on the attack.
no :(, this jsut happened to me opponent played Jaraxxus on an empty board and when i played Zephyrs he offered Gorehowl, Ysera and Pyroblast
That's really weird. I specifically remember someone from team 5 (donais i think, might be wrong) answering a question about this on reddit and saying yes, it would ALWAYS offer sac pact vs jaraxxus.
This sounds like a bug as IIRC the original statement on Zephrys said "If there is a guaranteed lethal, he will always find it." Looking at the above screenshot, Avenging Wrath is 100% lethal irrespective of the other cards in the player's hand so there's no reason for it not to appear.
As for the "random" argument, if you've ever played the solo adventures you've probably seen a card like Avenging Wrath, Arcane Missiles etc used by the AI for lethal when it is sufficient damage to kill you regardless of board/if you have no board. The AI knows that Avenging Wrath on an empty board is lethal to an 8 HP hero so Zephrys should find it every time.
The difference there is that Avenging Wrath in those cases is in the deck. The AI knows they have 8 damage in hand and will do 8 Damage.
Zephrys is different, because he has 50+ cards to choose from to offer you three. And as mentioned: Blizzard have specifically programmed him to never offer an RNG centered card to find lethal. Avenging wrath is RNG by design, so there proabbly is a line in the coding that says "Do not offer Avenging Wrath as an option if the opponent is below 8 health." Because otherwise he might offer Avenging Wrath at every time your opponent is below 8 health, because there "might" be a chance to win, and they want to avoid that.
I'm not saying they can't patch Zephys later: If any new classic cards get HoF'd they'll certainly have to. That said: I'm not surprised they didn't think of the specific option of "Offer Avenging Wrath when your opponent has no board" in the day 1 programing.
It needs patched. Guaranteed lethal is guaranteed lethal and it isn't super complicated for an algorithm to figure out. It should work by calculating Avenging Wrath's minimum face damage, which is as simple as:
8 + X - Y - Z = Minimum hero damage.
In which:
X = Total friendly spell power on board Y = Total enemy minion HP on board Z = Total number of Divine Shields on the enemy's board
So lets say we control Bloodmage Thalnos and there is a 2/2 Divine Shield and a 3/3 on the opponent's board, the minimum face damage available is:
8 + 1 - 5 - 1= 3
Granted in this situation there are a million other cards that Zephrys could find for lethal (Frostbolt, Kill Command etc) but the fringe cases of the opponent being at 7 or 8 HP with sufficiently low minion health/Divine Shields blocking damage, it should be able to recognise Avenging Wrath as 100% lethal.
I've read that Zephrys apparently can't tell if your hero power has been used or not. This would likely explain why the lethal was missed in this scenario, since it probably assumed you had the 2 damage from the HP spare and the Fireball would have been enough.
no :(, this jsut happened to me opponent played Jaraxxus on an empty board and when i played Zephyrs he offered Gorehowl, Ysera and Pyroblast
Thanks. That settles it to me. Spaghetti code.
That's odd because during the reveal stream I thought the scenario of getting SacPact against someone who played Jaraxxus was mentioned as a possibility. So now I'm confused as to why people aren't seeing it happen.
Yeah it offers sac pact if opponent hero is Jaraxxus, just killed a Rogue with it.
He's not perfect -- and I wouldn't be surprised if the devs continue to tweak it -- but he has genuinely helped me several times so far. Some real rabbit out of the hat moments.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
So from what I have been able to find: It actually might pick it in the situation your talking about.
If what I've read is correct, Avenging wrath is a card Zephrys can find, but it is indeed class under 'Board clear' Like I thought it would be.
So in the situation where you opponent has two or three relatively small minions: avenging wrath is a possibility. However, since the programming of Zephrys is to offer about a card for multiple situations, it's always on the lookout for the more reasonable alternatives.
Really the problem isn't with Zephrys so much as it is with Avenging Wrath. It's basically the only card that double as both a board clear and as burst damage, so Blizzard is going to have to really rework the programming if they want to find the situation where it can be used as both.
Really the problem isn't with Zephrys so much as it is with Avenging Wrath. It's basically the only card that double as both a board clear and as burst damage, so Blizzard is going to have to really rework the programming if they want to find the situation where it can be used as both.
This isn't necessarily true. Arcane Missiles and Greater Arcane Missiles do the same thing, as does Spreading Madness. There's a number of effects like this throughout the game. Maybe not many between basic and classic but since Arcane Missiles exists as well, this necessitates an adjustment to the coding in my opinion.
To be fair, why did you attack before using Zephrys? He could have given you Savage Roar, Bloodlust, etc.
According to his note and from a dev Tweet, he will not give you lethal that relies on RNG effects (even if it's blatant in this case it would be 100% be lethal).
"When he can, Zephrys will always offer cards to allow the player to gain lethal, even options that are unintuitive at first glance. However, since he cannot see what cards are in the player's hand, he can miss lethal chances if the player does not play out their cards first.[9][10][11][12]
He will not offer lethal solutions that rely on RNG."
you can have mine. I got this terrible card from my packs. I don´t wanna play it, cause I don´t like. Would really like to exchange it with someone else if this would be possible.
you can have mine. I got this terrible card from my packs. I don´t wanna play it, cause I don´t like. Would really like to exchange it with someone else if this would be possible.
I'll trade you my Lord Jaraxxus for your Zephrys and then we should play a couple of games.
Zephyrs just lost me a game. I was on 3 life and the Hunter had 3 secrets up, which I knew had to include an Explosive Trap. I just needed heal. I played Zephyrs and he gave me Savage Roar, Inner Fire, and Bloodlust. All 3 would have been lethal, IF I could attack, which I could not (due to the secrets).
His programming is obviously a bit off, perhaps I expected too much. But even a Flare would have been better here though.
First of all: "Perfect" is as much flavor text as it is thematic. It's like the boombot Warning on Dr. Boom.
Second: it's been expressed multiple times by the Team that Zephrys does not know what's in your hand. It only has access to information that both players are able to see at all times. (I.e minions and weapons on the board, and numbers of secrets, health and cards of each player.) That isn't going to change because there's so many cards in your hand that you could be waiting to hold for later: Zephyrs isn't going to have time to figure out which ones you want to hold to. It's much more important for him to figure out what he can do right now for the board state.
If you say he offered MC tech: my guess is that there was either a taunt minion on the opposing side, or you had no board, so he assumed you would want defense. He probably would've given lethal if you hero powered first, because he would recognise you were on the attack.
That's really weird. I specifically remember someone from team 5 (donais i think, might be wrong) answering a question about this on reddit and saying yes, it would ALWAYS offer sac pact vs jaraxxus.
This sounds like a bug as IIRC the original statement on Zephrys said "If there is a guaranteed lethal, he will always find it." Looking at the above screenshot, Avenging Wrath is 100% lethal irrespective of the other cards in the player's hand so there's no reason for it not to appear.
As for the "random" argument, if you've ever played the solo adventures you've probably seen a card like Avenging Wrath, Arcane Missiles etc used by the AI for lethal when it is sufficient damage to kill you regardless of board/if you have no board. The AI knows that Avenging Wrath on an empty board is lethal to an 8 HP hero so Zephrys should find it every time.
The difference there is that Avenging Wrath in those cases is in the deck. The AI knows they have 8 damage in hand and will do 8 Damage.
Zephrys is different, because he has 50+ cards to choose from to offer you three. And as mentioned: Blizzard have specifically programmed him to never offer an RNG centered card to find lethal. Avenging wrath is RNG by design, so there proabbly is a line in the coding that says "Do not offer Avenging Wrath as an option if the opponent is below 8 health." Because otherwise he might offer Avenging Wrath at every time your opponent is below 8 health, because there "might" be a chance to win, and they want to avoid that.
I'm not saying they can't patch Zephys later: If any new classic cards get HoF'd they'll certainly have to. That said: I'm not surprised they didn't think of the specific option of "Offer Avenging Wrath when your opponent has no board" in the day 1 programing.
It needs patched. Guaranteed lethal is guaranteed lethal and it isn't super complicated for an algorithm to figure out. It should work by calculating Avenging Wrath's minimum face damage, which is as simple as:
8 + X - Y - Z = Minimum hero damage.
In which:
X = Total friendly spell power on board
Y = Total enemy minion HP on board
Z = Total number of Divine Shields on the enemy's board
So lets say we control Bloodmage Thalnos and there is a 2/2 Divine Shield and a 3/3 on the opponent's board, the minimum face damage available is:
8 + 1 - 5 - 1= 3
Granted in this situation there are a million other cards that Zephrys could find for lethal (Frostbolt, Kill Command etc) but the fringe cases of the opponent being at 7 or 8 HP with sufficiently low minion health/Divine Shields blocking damage, it should be able to recognise Avenging Wrath as 100% lethal.
I've read that Zephrys apparently can't tell if your hero power has been used or not.
This would likely explain why the lethal was missed in this scenario, since it probably assumed you had the 2 damage from the HP spare and the Fireball would have been enough.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/cnmpbu/shouldnt_zephrys_always_offer_you_lethal_when/
Yeah it offers sac pact if opponent hero is Jaraxxus, just killed a Rogue with it.
He's not perfect -- and I wouldn't be surprised if the devs continue to tweak it -- but he has genuinely helped me several times so far. Some real rabbit out of the hat moments.
Dependable loan sharks since 1960. We sink our teeth into every deal we make.
okay guys chill, Zephrys is good and all but don't expect him to be Ben Brode(f), i mean he will 80% of the time save you but some other he won't
after all its a 2 mana card with a good body.
So from what I have been able to find: It actually might pick it in the situation your talking about.
If what I've read is correct, Avenging wrath is a card Zephrys can find, but it is indeed class under 'Board clear' Like I thought it would be.
So in the situation where you opponent has two or three relatively small minions: avenging wrath is a possibility. However, since the programming of Zephrys is to offer about a card for multiple situations, it's always on the lookout for the more reasonable alternatives.
Really the problem isn't with Zephrys so much as it is with Avenging Wrath. It's basically the only card that double as both a board clear and as burst damage, so Blizzard is going to have to really rework the programming if they want to find the situation where it can be used as both.
I guess I can save 1600 dust and leave Keleseth in the deck.
Gave me Bloodlust lethal yesterday....
if you have lethal a spell away he will give to you but random spell cards is the thing that confuses him.
Love is pain but I'll endure that pain if that's what it takes. 🖤
"The Perfect Card" MonkaS
Love is pain but I'll endure that pain if that's what it takes. 🖤
This isn't necessarily true. Arcane Missiles and Greater Arcane Missiles do the same thing, as does Spreading Madness. There's a number of effects like this throughout the game. Maybe not many between basic and classic but since Arcane Missiles exists as well, this necessitates an adjustment to the coding in my opinion.
To be fair, why did you attack before using Zephrys? He could have given you Savage Roar, Bloodlust, etc.
According to his note and from a dev Tweet, he will not give you lethal that relies on RNG effects (even if it's blatant in this case it would be 100% be lethal).
"When he can, Zephrys will always offer cards to allow the player to gain lethal, even options that are unintuitive at first glance. However, since he cannot see what cards are in the player's hand, he can miss lethal chances if the player does not play out their cards first.[9][10][11][12]
He will not offer lethal solutions that rely on RNG."
https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Zephrys_the_Great
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/1156692376523595776
Why can't we just chose a card ?
They could have made it so you could search the card you want by name and then pick it.
you can have mine. I got this terrible card from my packs. I don´t wanna play it, cause I don´t like. Would really like to exchange it with someone else if this would be possible.
I'll trade you my Lord Jaraxxus for your Zephrys and then we should play a couple of games.
Zephyrs just lost me a game. I was on 3 life and the Hunter had 3 secrets up, which I knew had to include an Explosive Trap. I just needed heal. I played Zephyrs and he gave me Savage Roar, Inner Fire, and Bloodlust. All 3 would have been lethal, IF I could attack, which I could not (due to the secrets).
His programming is obviously a bit off, perhaps I expected too much. But even a Flare would have been better here though.