I don't think the lack of warrior nerfs is that bad. Plenty of decks beat warrior, but all those decks lose to rogue. Less rogues means more of warrior's counters and less things for warrior to counter. The Elysiana nerf is sketchy though. The control warrior mirrors are going to be shorter, but they might just be games of "who gets the coin" if they keep running brewmaster/banker. On ladder they might cut those because they were pretty bad anyway outside of the mirror, which will be less common, and only work half the time in those anyway, but I'm pretty sure they still make it in specialist format.
I say, we wait and see what happens before complaining about other classes. Rogue was a 'fun' deck to play for me and I never played the top tier lists, preferring to play Academy Rogue and Healing weapon.
These nerfs don't hurt that deck very much, because I didnt rely on Prep for early tempo. Usually, I combined it with Auctioneer to draw a bunch of cards.
Honestly though, I tend to like more subtle nerfs, but doing all 3 cards at once is so drastic.
Ok nerf for rogues, it was too strong. Every deck teched 2 ooze + harrison and the deck was still tier 1 crazy. Elysiana 9 is stupid af, if you have don't have the coin in a mirror, you can go fuck yourself. Put elysiana at 10 if you don't want to allow the combo with banker or the panda.
At this point rogue gets nerfed more than druid everytime quick AF lol. Like damn they let rogue have fun for like a month then say iight thats enough. Meanwhile barnes exist and they let druid wild out for 2 years with jades and U.I. rip valeera they dont treat u right.
Four good change overall, although maybe rogue got targeted a little too hard. Elysiana is still playable, just not as unsufferable as it once was. Prep is still playable, same for lackey. Not sure about raiding party, but 3 mana draw 3 specific cards (with high synergy) was insane anyway.
And the prep nerf is also an indirect vancleef nerf.
4 nerfs total and 3 are Rogue? What a joke. Take the strongest class and- instead of cleaning them up- butcher them. This is just another example of the team not yet fully grasping how to adjust the game at a micro level. The overall quality of each individual nerf is a little more reasonable than normal, but the timing and pairing is god-awful.
Wow... I have complained about this card before, but did we really have to keep tampering with classic/basic? What I said previously is the pairing of nerfs was ridiculous. This maybe needed adjustment in the future, but to drop it at the same time as my next card is just wrong. Complete bash to F2P players and budget players. Classic and Basic are going to continue to get smaller and smaller in their utility until the class legendaries are all that stand.
Ok I'll say this twice and here it is first: Good nerf. The card did too much for 3 mana. Combo preliminary to generate value means mostly nothing to Rogue in terms of cost. Even with the Prep nerf, combo requirements are still easy to fill and mostly efficient for Rogue to complete. Very glad this card is going to see disruption and stop a perfect power curve for turns 3,4, and 5 for Rogue. I was getting pretty tired of watching the same 5 turns happen over and over and over again and be able to do literally nothing to answer all the tempo.
I guess? Not sure in the grand scheme of things changing it by 1hp does? It still comes out with coin early, it still creates great value that Rogue happily takes advantage of for generation and combos, it still typically keeps pinging 1-2 minions and chipping at the opponent... This is one of those nerfs that people rejoice seeing the name of the card and then as they scroll sit in confusion and contemplate if a change actually took place. Not really impressed here. I don't think this affects the card whatsoever.
Alrighty here is the 2/2 on "good nerf". The card continues to hold its value. The card performs better now in certain classes than others. The card cannot be combo-ed immediately, and thus doesn't create games that run far longer than intended as often. This is a definition great nerf. I'm really proud of Blizzard on this single card far more than any other adjustment basically ever. I was ready to see them gut this card and change the text so much so that when I read the announcement article I didn't see what got nerfed at first. It is still healthy, in this meta it is still good, and in a control deck it has proper stats for what it accomplishes alongside the power of the rest of the deck's cards.
This doesn't change that overall the nerf was still garbage. Pairing Prep and Raiding Party together on a nerf was so bad that it undermines the precision of balance that was taken in regards to Raiding Party and Elysiana. Nerfing 3 Rogue cards together was a bit overkill, and honestly appears pretty lazy. The Miscreant nerf just wasn't really a nerf. This patch is a 2/5. Blizzard you could've actually perfected a patch if you didn't hard focus a class and swapped miscreant for a problematic Warrior or Hunter card of your choosing.
4 nerfs total and 3 are Rogue? What a joke. Take the strongest class and- instead of cleaning them up- butcher them. This is just another example of the team not yet fully grasping how to adjust the game at a micro level. The overall quality of each individual nerf is a little more reasonable than normal, but the timing and pairing is god-awful.
Butcher? Do you really think that rogue won't have at least a tier 2 deck with all tools they have?
Can't believe Elysiana wasn't nerfed to 10 mana. Now on a mirror, the player with the coin has a great advantage, and can coin and play her with Banker/Brewmaster to play an extra one. As fringe a scenario as it may be, this shouldn't be a possibility.
I'm glad Raiding Party got nerfed, but could care less for Prep. I'm bummed Waggle Pick hasn't been touched, whether in mana increase or decrease in attack. That thing (specially coupled with Greenskin) wacks over half your HP by itself and it pretty much decides the game as it opens the full option for the rogue just to burn you from hand more easily than Burn Mages ever could. It's not always you have both Oozes or Harrison lying around while they have specific tutors to find it and it's the reason it's warping the meta into a weapon hate one.
Miscreant at 1/4 for the value it generates and comboing with Pick is still too much, IMO.
It also seems a little bizarre neither Scavenging Hyena nor Dr.Boom didn't even receive a mention.
People actually believing that warriors will run Bankers/Pandas to combine them with The Coin. :D
Oh, Leute. If a certain combo is not reliable, then serious players don't include it in their decks. They won't run a bad card just to win a 50% coin flip in the mirror. The bankers and the pandas are useless in every MU except in the control vs control ones, so you won't see them being played on the ladder.
4 nerfs total and 3 are Rogue? What a joke. Take the strongest class and- instead of cleaning them up- butcher them. This is just another example of the team not yet fully grasping how to adjust the game at a micro level. The overall quality of each individual nerf is a little more reasonable than normal, but the timing and pairing is god-awful.
Butcher? Do you really think that rogue won't have at least a tier 2 deck with all tools they have?
Yes. I really think Rogue is going to get slammed for this. If you really think a tempo oriented CLASS, not just deck, can survive without its best tempo card then you have absolutely no grasp on playing Rogue. You have no idea how often in both wild and standard a single mana comes down to how to best utilize Prep, if even that turn, to maximize what you are trying to do in that exact moment, but also make the best tempo play. I can go back and physically remember times in the past two weeks in both formats that the one mana reduction made a game-winning difference. You aren't seeing what goes out of the picture with this card:
1. Van Cleef goes out. This card was reliant on an early big presence and its win-rate falls significantly when played on or after turn 4. You can no longer combo it to the reliability you could before. It is probably getting cut for Hench-Clan Thug.
2. Perfect curve for Rogue was: nothing, dagger, crazy combos into minion, waggle pick, greenskin, then do whatever you need from there to close. Two of the cards nerfed reliably got that outcome and now you will absolutely not be setting up a minion on turn 3 and/or addressing the board. You will now lose to aggro pretty reliably. Being near an auto-lose in the aggro mirror is a DEATH SENTENCE to a deck, as aggro is not only the most frequently played but usually more budget friendly too.
3. Most importantly, Preparation was a staple for Rogue in creating tempo. It is actually what categorized and popularized Tempo as an archetype in Hearthstone. The ability to utilize a lot of resources into a swing or a lock down is what makes tempo decks Tempo decks. For now and every day after, Prep is no longer going to be making those swings to the degree it could have. 3 mana spells aren't coming out for free for the cost of two cards- 1 mana minimum cost now. The potential future needs to be stronger for Rogue, otherwise Tempo will remain reliant on about 10-15 classic cards, and that simply isn't fun for the game.
So I'm guessing something more align with Tier 3. So going from TS/T1 to T3 or lower is a pretty big "butcher" imo.
Rogue is still going to be very strong. It won't consistently run people over as early, but Rogue has a lot of great value and later game cards it doesn't even play because it didn't need to. The nerfs will also cause a bit less weapon hate and anti rogue techs which will allow Rogue to slide right back in near the top of the meta.
Prep nerf is good. It's still a strong card. 2 mana spells are still free, 3 mana spells now cost 1. Stops Rogue from squeezing out very powerful spells early while still allowing for powerful combo turns in the mid game.
Evil Miscreant nerf is very good. I actually called this one. 1/5 is insanely sticky for such a powerful battlecry in a class with so many bounce effects and the lackeys having synergy with miscreant already. 1/4 is still pretty sticky in the early game, but reasonably killable. Evil Miscreant is still a great card.
Raiding party is very fair nerf. 3 mana tutor 3 powerful cards that synergize and can be jammed together over the next turn or two in almost any situation is insane. The combo part doesn't matter much in a deck with 0 mana spells, lackeys, and having the coin 50% of the time anyway. Compare it to many similar cards in other classes. Master's call has a deck building restriction and is less likely to draw you the exact beasts you want because the pool of beasts in your deck is larger than the pool of pirates in tempo rogue. Arcane Intellect is 3 mana draw two random cards, no synergy and one less card. Book of specters is 2 mana draw 3 but has a chance of drawing less and killing spells and has the deckbuilding restriction of having few spells in a spell heavy class. Crystalsong Portal, LOL. Sense demons, OMEGALUL...you get the idea.
It's not like Prep is since yesterday in all rogue decks, but they decide to nerf it now? "The long term health of the game" is such a BS, it's not even funny. I feel like they develop 2 expansions in advance, but do their nerfs "on the fly". Prep + quest or Prep + vanish was such a strong play at some point, yet they nerfed quest like 3 times and didn't touch prep even once and now they are "ensuring the long term health of the game"? Oh, c'mon! Prep was not only a miracle rogue tool, but in almost every rogue deck long before you decided to print an rng clown weapon and give it a card to guaranteed draw it for 0 mana (with prep) to make the mana curve "so smooth".
I don't believe the nerf of the Preparation will make the card unplayable. It will just "ease" some combo potentials of it. And no - I am not a salty main rogue player ;). Just don't like BS explanations of certain actions. And I especially dislike nerfing basic/classic cards. Same with the Nourish/WG nerfs from December. I am not completely against them, but they should just admit that they f**** up on the design of certain cards from the recent expansions and didn't consider the power level of some classic cards, when combined with the new cards.
Or if they feel like such cards, like Preparation, are limiting their designer space for future expansion, they should revamp the whole core of the game, and don't just nerf a lil' bit here and a lil' bit there. At the end it doesn't look like a "long term stabilization of the health", more like "on the fly nerfs, just by looking at some "mysterious" data".
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
I don't think the lack of warrior nerfs is that bad. Plenty of decks beat warrior, but all those decks lose to rogue. Less rogues means more of warrior's counters and less things for warrior to counter. The Elysiana nerf is sketchy though. The control warrior mirrors are going to be shorter, but they might just be games of "who gets the coin" if they keep running brewmaster/banker. On ladder they might cut those because they were pretty bad anyway outside of the mirror, which will be less common, and only work half the time in those anyway, but I'm pretty sure they still make it in specialist format.
I say, we wait and see what happens before complaining about other classes. Rogue was a 'fun' deck to play for me and I never played the top tier lists, preferring to play Academy Rogue and Healing weapon.
These nerfs don't hurt that deck very much, because I didnt rely on Prep for early tempo. Usually, I combined it with Auctioneer to draw a bunch of cards.
Honestly though, I tend to like more subtle nerfs, but doing all 3 cards at once is so drastic.
Ok nerf for rogues, it was too strong. Every deck teched 2 ooze + harrison and the deck was still tier 1 crazy.
Elysiana 9 is stupid af, if you have don't have the coin in a mirror, you can go fuck yourself.
Put elysiana at 10 if you don't want to allow the combo with banker or the panda.
At this point rogue gets nerfed more than druid everytime quick AF lol. Like damn they let rogue have fun for like a month then say iight thats enough. Meanwhile barnes exist and they let druid wild out for 2 years with jades and U.I. rip valeera they dont treat u right.
Pretty hard nerfed to rogue. And without rogue control warrior win rates go in the toilet.
Galavant Animation
Overall, good nerfs. Much needed. I'm a bit sad they didn't Nerf waggle pick because I opened a golden one, but oh well 😀
Many people are hating the nerfs, but c'mon guys, they were much needed. The powerlevel of rogue is INSANE
Four good change overall, although maybe rogue got targeted a little too hard. Elysiana is still playable, just not as unsufferable as it once was. Prep is still playable, same for lackey. Not sure about raiding party, but 3 mana draw 3 specific cards (with high synergy) was insane anyway.
And the prep nerf is also an indirect vancleef nerf.
4 nerfs total and 3 are Rogue? What a joke. Take the strongest class and- instead of cleaning them up- butcher them. This is just another example of the team not yet fully grasping how to adjust the game at a micro level. The overall quality of each individual nerf is a little more reasonable than normal, but the timing and pairing is god-awful.
Preparation
Wow... I have complained about this card before, but did we really have to keep tampering with classic/basic? What I said previously is the pairing of nerfs was ridiculous. This maybe needed adjustment in the future, but to drop it at the same time as my next card is just wrong. Complete bash to F2P players and budget players. Classic and Basic are going to continue to get smaller and smaller in their utility until the class legendaries are all that stand.
Raiding Party
Ok I'll say this twice and here it is first: Good nerf. The card did too much for 3 mana. Combo preliminary to generate value means mostly nothing to Rogue in terms of cost. Even with the Prep nerf, combo requirements are still easy to fill and mostly efficient for Rogue to complete. Very glad this card is going to see disruption and stop a perfect power curve for turns 3,4, and 5 for Rogue. I was getting pretty tired of watching the same 5 turns happen over and over and over again and be able to do literally nothing to answer all the tempo.
EVIL Miscreant
I guess? Not sure in the grand scheme of things changing it by 1hp does? It still comes out with coin early, it still creates great value that Rogue happily takes advantage of for generation and combos, it still typically keeps pinging 1-2 minions and chipping at the opponent... This is one of those nerfs that people rejoice seeing the name of the card and then as they scroll sit in confusion and contemplate if a change actually took place. Not really impressed here. I don't think this affects the card whatsoever.
Archivist Elysiana
Alrighty here is the 2/2 on "good nerf". The card continues to hold its value. The card performs better now in certain classes than others. The card cannot be combo-ed immediately, and thus doesn't create games that run far longer than intended as often. This is a definition great nerf. I'm really proud of Blizzard on this single card far more than any other adjustment basically ever. I was ready to see them gut this card and change the text so much so that when I read the announcement article I didn't see what got nerfed at first. It is still healthy, in this meta it is still good, and in a control deck it has proper stats for what it accomplishes alongside the power of the rest of the deck's cards.
This doesn't change that overall the nerf was still garbage. Pairing Prep and Raiding Party together on a nerf was so bad that it undermines the precision of balance that was taken in regards to Raiding Party and Elysiana. Nerfing 3 Rogue cards together was a bit overkill, and honestly appears pretty lazy. The Miscreant nerf just wasn't really a nerf. This patch is a 2/5. Blizzard you could've actually perfected a patch if you didn't hard focus a class and swapped miscreant for a problematic Warrior or Hunter card of your choosing.
Butcher? Do you really think that rogue won't have at least a tier 2 deck with all tools they have?
Can't believe Elysiana wasn't nerfed to 10 mana. Now on a mirror, the player with the coin has a great advantage, and can coin and play her with Banker/Brewmaster to play an extra one. As fringe a scenario as it may be, this shouldn't be a possibility.
I'm glad Raiding Party got nerfed, but could care less for Prep. I'm bummed Waggle Pick hasn't been touched, whether in mana increase or decrease in attack. That thing (specially coupled with Greenskin) wacks over half your HP by itself and it pretty much decides the game as it opens the full option for the rogue just to burn you from hand more easily than Burn Mages ever could. It's not always you have both Oozes or Harrison lying around while they have specific tutors to find it and it's the reason it's warping the meta into a weapon hate one.
Miscreant at 1/4 for the value it generates and comboing with Pick is still too much, IMO.
It also seems a little bizarre neither Scavenging Hyena nor Dr.Boom didn't even receive a mention.
People actually believing that warriors will run Bankers/Pandas to combine them with The Coin. :D
Oh, Leute. If a certain combo is not reliable, then serious players don't include it in their decks. They won't run a bad card just to win a 50% coin flip in the mirror. The bankers and the pandas are useless in every MU except in the control vs control ones, so you won't see them being played on the ladder.
Yes. I really think Rogue is going to get slammed for this. If you really think a tempo oriented CLASS, not just deck, can survive without its best tempo card then you have absolutely no grasp on playing Rogue. You have no idea how often in both wild and standard a single mana comes down to how to best utilize Prep, if even that turn, to maximize what you are trying to do in that exact moment, but also make the best tempo play. I can go back and physically remember times in the past two weeks in both formats that the one mana reduction made a game-winning difference. You aren't seeing what goes out of the picture with this card:
1. Van Cleef goes out. This card was reliant on an early big presence and its win-rate falls significantly when played on or after turn 4. You can no longer combo it to the reliability you could before. It is probably getting cut for Hench-Clan Thug.
2. Perfect curve for Rogue was: nothing, dagger, crazy combos into minion, waggle pick, greenskin, then do whatever you need from there to close. Two of the cards nerfed reliably got that outcome and now you will absolutely not be setting up a minion on turn 3 and/or addressing the board. You will now lose to aggro pretty reliably. Being near an auto-lose in the aggro mirror is a DEATH SENTENCE to a deck, as aggro is not only the most frequently played but usually more budget friendly too.
3. Most importantly, Preparation was a staple for Rogue in creating tempo. It is actually what categorized and popularized Tempo as an archetype in Hearthstone. The ability to utilize a lot of resources into a swing or a lock down is what makes tempo decks Tempo decks. For now and every day after, Prep is no longer going to be making those swings to the degree it could have. 3 mana spells aren't coming out for free for the cost of two cards- 1 mana minimum cost now. The potential future needs to be stronger for Rogue, otherwise Tempo will remain reliant on about 10-15 classic cards, and that simply isn't fun for the game.
So I'm guessing something more align with Tier 3. So going from TS/T1 to T3 or lower is a pretty big "butcher" imo.
The best deck in the meta, and little bit OP is Mech Hunter and it is not even touched. Bravo Blizzard.
The best deck in the Meta *now*. Not for the last few weeks. Rogue has been warping the Meta since RoS dropped.
Bravo indeed.
The 'Nerf Rogue' Thread reached close to 500 replies on this Forum alone. That didn't include the clamour from other sources.
Mech Hunter wasn't even mentioned.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Rogue is still going to be very strong. It won't consistently run people over as early, but Rogue has a lot of great value and later game cards it doesn't even play because it didn't need to. The nerfs will also cause a bit less weapon hate and anti rogue techs which will allow Rogue to slide right back in near the top of the meta.
Prep nerf is good. It's still a strong card. 2 mana spells are still free, 3 mana spells now cost 1. Stops Rogue from squeezing out very powerful spells early while still allowing for powerful combo turns in the mid game.
Evil Miscreant nerf is very good. I actually called this one. 1/5 is insanely sticky for such a powerful battlecry in a class with so many bounce effects and the lackeys having synergy with miscreant already. 1/4 is still pretty sticky in the early game, but reasonably killable. Evil Miscreant is still a great card.
Raiding party is very fair nerf. 3 mana tutor 3 powerful cards that synergize and can be jammed together over the next turn or two in almost any situation is insane. The combo part doesn't matter much in a deck with 0 mana spells, lackeys, and having the coin 50% of the time anyway. Compare it to many similar cards in other classes. Master's call has a deck building restriction and is less likely to draw you the exact beasts you want because the pool of beasts in your deck is larger than the pool of pirates in tempo rogue. Arcane Intellect is 3 mana draw two random cards, no synergy and one less card. Book of specters is 2 mana draw 3 but has a chance of drawing less and killing spells and has the deckbuilding restriction of having few spells in a spell heavy class. Crystalsong Portal, LOL. Sense demons, OMEGALUL...you get the idea.
LOL at this.
Mech Hunter was NEVER the best deck in the meta, and I highly doubt it will be. Warrior will still be crushing the ladder.
It's not like Prep is since yesterday in all rogue decks, but they decide to nerf it now? "The long term health of the game" is such a BS, it's not even funny. I feel like they develop 2 expansions in advance, but do their nerfs "on the fly". Prep + quest or Prep + vanish was such a strong play at some point, yet they nerfed quest like 3 times and didn't touch prep even once and now they are "ensuring the long term health of the game"? Oh, c'mon! Prep was not only a miracle rogue tool, but in almost every rogue deck long before you decided to print an rng clown weapon and give it a card to guaranteed draw it for 0 mana (with prep) to make the mana curve "so smooth".
I don't believe the nerf of the Preparation will make the card unplayable. It will just "ease" some combo potentials of it. And no - I am not a salty main rogue player ;). Just don't like BS explanations of certain actions. And I especially dislike nerfing basic/classic cards. Same with the Nourish/WG nerfs from December. I am not completely against them, but they should just admit that they f**** up on the design of certain cards from the recent expansions and didn't consider the power level of some classic cards, when combined with the new cards.
Or if they feel like such cards, like Preparation, are limiting their designer space for future expansion, they should revamp the whole core of the game, and don't just nerf a lil' bit here and a lil' bit there. At the end it doesn't look like a "long term stabilization of the health", more like "on the fly nerfs, just by looking at some "mysterious" data".
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
im really disspointed not seeing Barnes in this list
i suppose in 10 years they finaly gather enough data
Ok so they nerfed rogues...
When will the warrior nerfs be announced?
Thank you :) my policy of waiting to disenchant finally pays off