I'm not familiar with numbers and stats and I don't think that rogue is broken or something. But I'm almost certain that rogue right now is not what hunter was two months ago. But I do understand why some players are fussing so much about rogues. It's very tough to play against them. They almost always control the tempo and it's hard to rush them down (Backstab, SI:7 Agent and largely due to EVIL Miscreant). They have a ton of burst from hand (Leeroy Jenkins-Waggle Pick, Eviscerate). Huge early game tempo swings (Waggle Pick-Bloodsail Corsair). They rarely run out of cards (Myra's Unstable Element). Occasionaly they win on turn two or three with a nice little 8/8 minion. So apparently all rogue cards need to be nerfed?
There is only one rogue card to be nerfed in order to balance out the class with all the others. Raiding Party. 5 mana draw 3 cards (pre-nerfed Nourish) has been the card draw standard ever since. This card draws three for 3 mana. That is broken. Master's Call also does the same but at a much higher price. Requires not to have any minions in a deck besides beasts, pretty big restriction. On the other hand, to make Raiding Party draw three bloody cards you just need to play a card prior to in a class that runs four 0 mana cost spells. And some of the players started even playing Wisp too just for that matter.
One might argue that pirates are not too good of a cards on their own and they shouldn't be regarded as 'cards' you draw but you could use that argument maybe two years ago. Just by curving out Raiding Party into turn 4 Waggle Pick and double Dread Corsair (or even one) makes it worth, let alone everything else. On a side note they just introduced Hench-Clan Burglar and Captain Hooktusk, very valuable pirates.
To conclude, Raiding Party makes all the cards and whole deck significantly better and allows rogues to overcome all the issues the deck might have had this card been balanced in the first place. A simple nerf to four mana would still see rogues playing this card.
Seriously dude, there's a Thread rattling along here with some 300 replies. I get where your coming from but I don't need to see another Nerf Rogue Thread thanks.
I didn't know about that thread. I'm fairly knew here. But i've stumbled upon dozens of posts where people complain about whole bunch of rogue cards. There's this nonsense active thread about whether Leeroy Jenkins should have been nerfed. I just wanted to draw attention that Raiding Party is the only problem here because it makes other good or great cards so much better that people want them to be nerfed...
I'm not familiar with numbers and stats and I don't think that rogue is broken or something.
You are blatantly wrong.
Just for the record, I didn't say that rogue isn't the best. I just think that people who complain about rogue are exaggerating a little bit too much. The word broken should only be used if there is something really destructive for the game to the point people quit playing because of it and rogue right now doesn't fall into that category. At least for me.
I'd combine that nerf-to-4-mana with a Preparation redesign. "The next spell you cast this turn with a cost of 3 or less is free." Rogue design is cramped, because any spell has to take Preparation into account. This means that it's usually hard to print good Rogue spells. Sometimes some slip through. But by redesigning Prep to no longer ramp out big spells, it frees up designers for more interesting Rogue spells in the future.
Give waggle pick the paladin treatment, make it eight mana
Waggle Pick isn't the problem though... It's a Deathrattle card,which means an Ooze/Harrison shits on it... If it weren't for Raiding Party tutoring it,alongside cards that synergize with it,it would barely see play...
I love playing Rogue, but I have to agree... Raiding Party really is kinda busted in most formats. The fact that you can pull out 3 key cards of your deck on turn 1 with a Preparation is kinda nuts.
Seriously dude, there's a Thread rattling along here with some 300 replies. I get where your coming from but I don't need to see another Nerf Rogue Thread thanks.
Why give these threads attention? Every single post complaining about it bumps it and keeps it relevant. For all the complaints, Hearthpwn flocks to the nerf threads like moths to a flame.
Pic related: Two threads, one with "good vibes" and the other a "stale, repetitive" one. And yet, one has 10 times the views of the other.
ATTACHMENTS
negativity
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Raiding Party would be fair without Preparation. Rogue in general would be fair without Preparation. That is what needs to be nerfed or rotated.
You are missing the KEY aspect to the argument: Preperation is the iconic card for Rogue, literally all rogue spells have been designed around it. To change Prep would be to fundamentally change a class more than any other nerf in the history of the game.
At least the OP is looking at the data and reality, Raiding Party is oppressively strong, and if there is to be nerfs it is the most likely, and most appropriate nerf. Wagglepick IMO could see a nerf but I don't go around making threads about it.
tl;dr Prep is key to Rogue identity, Raiding Party is not. OP made a concise thread about a prevalent issue in the game, so props to you. Anyone who thinks what OP was saying belongs in the salt thread is simply an argumentative, ignorant troll. Don't have to call anyone out, you know exactly who you are, you're the one never offering a valuable opinion that is your own.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
I'm not familiar with numbers and stats and I don't think that rogue is broken or something.
You are blatantly wrong.
Just for the record, I didn't say that rogue isn't the best. I just think that people who complain about rogue are exaggerating a little bit too much. The word broken should only be used if there is something really destructive for the game to the point people quit playing because of it and rogue right now doesn't fall into that category. At least for me.
EXACTLY THIS. Jade Druid at the beginning of KotFT was oppressive, Aggro Shaman at the start of Mean Streets was oppressive. People who shit memories should refrain from using words they don't understand, or have context for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
If people are ok with the wild growth and nourish nerfs, then they should be ok with a prep nerf. At least make prep reduce cost by 2 instead of 3. And just nuke raiding party to hell...
Raiding Party would be fair without Preparation. Rogue in general would be fair without Preparation. That is what needs to be nerfed or rotated.
You are missing the KEY aspect to the argument: Preperation is the iconic card for Rogue, literally all rogue spells have been designed around it. To change Prep would be to fundamentally change a class more than any other nerf in the history of the game.
At least the OP is looking at the data and reality, Raiding Party is oppressively strong, and if there is to be nerfs it is the most likely, and most appropriate nerf. Wagglepick IMO could see a nerf but I don't go around making threads about it.
tl;dr Prep is key to Rogue identity, Raiding Party is not. OP made a concise thread about a prevalent issue in the game, so props to you. Anyone who thinks what OP was saying belongs in the salt thread is simply an argumentative, ignorant troll. Don't have to call anyone out, you know exactly who you are, you're the one never offering a valuable opinion that is your own.
I actually agree with literally everything you have said. Thanks for backing me up. Seemingly some haters around here are accusing me for just making another salt thread when as a matter of fact I just wanted to point out the real problem in rogues gameplan if there is any.
By the way, speaking of those iconic cards, I wasn't playing when Nourish and Wild Growth were nerfed to ground (in December) but as of now I totally disagree with that move, because mana ramp is what druid has been known ever since ... You just don't take away cards that define class identity. Same goes for Preparation. It's been rogues thing to cheat out mana for tempo swings and Prep is no exception. As if Sprint and Vanish werent super slow and bad enough on their own now people want the only card that makes them work removed...
Just HOF Leeroy Jenkins. Easy 16 damage for 8 mana. Leeroy for 6, Waggle with second attack for 4, Leeroy again for 6. Charge is not fun. Leeroy has burst from spells and weapons, it shouldn't have any charge minions.
Just HOF Leeroy Jenkins. Easy 16 damage for 8 mana. Leeroy for 6, Waggle with second attack for 4, Leeroy again for 6. Charge is not fun. Leeroy has burst from spells and weapons, it shouldn't have any charge minions.
You missed the whole point of this article. Of course that combo happens quite often when they play Prep-Raiding Party early on followed up with the weapon on turn 4 and 6/6 worth of stats (with taunt) so by the time you are spending your mana, resources and time to deal with them (alongside EVIL Miscreant and a couple of Lackeys) you find yourself already low enough to be bursted down from 15 HP or less. If Raiding Party was 4 mana those 16 damage turns would be significantly rarer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm not familiar with numbers and stats and I don't think that rogue is broken or something. But I'm almost certain that rogue right now is not what hunter was two months ago. But I do understand why some players are fussing so much about rogues. It's very tough to play against them. They almost always control the tempo and it's hard to rush them down (Backstab, SI:7 Agent and largely due to EVIL Miscreant). They have a ton of burst from hand (Leeroy Jenkins-Waggle Pick, Eviscerate). Huge early game tempo swings (Waggle Pick-Bloodsail Corsair). They rarely run out of cards (Myra's Unstable Element). Occasionaly they win on turn two or three with a nice little 8/8 minion. So apparently all rogue cards need to be nerfed?
There is only one rogue card to be nerfed in order to balance out the class with all the others. Raiding Party. 5 mana draw 3 cards (pre-nerfed Nourish) has been the card draw standard ever since. This card draws three for 3 mana. That is broken. Master's Call also does the same but at a much higher price. Requires not to have any minions in a deck besides beasts, pretty big restriction. On the other hand, to make Raiding Party draw three bloody cards you just need to play a card prior to in a class that runs four 0 mana cost spells. And some of the players started even playing Wisp too just for that matter.
One might argue that pirates are not too good of a cards on their own and they shouldn't be regarded as 'cards' you draw but you could use that argument maybe two years ago. Just by curving out Raiding Party into turn 4 Waggle Pick and double Dread Corsair (or even one) makes it worth, let alone everything else. On a side note they just introduced Hench-Clan Burglar and Captain Hooktusk, very valuable pirates.
To conclude, Raiding Party makes all the cards and whole deck significantly better and allows rogues to overcome all the issues the deck might have had this card been balanced in the first place. A simple nerf to four mana would still see rogues playing this card.
Raiding Party into Waggle Pick into double Dread Corsair is a problem?
Hadn't noticed..... /s
Seriously dude, there's a Thread rattling along here with some 300 replies. I get where your coming from but I don't need to see another Nerf Rogue Thread thanks.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
I didn't know about that thread. I'm fairly knew here. But i've stumbled upon dozens of posts where people complain about whole bunch of rogue cards. There's this nonsense active thread about whether Leeroy Jenkins should have been nerfed. I just wanted to draw attention that Raiding Party is the only problem here because it makes other good or great cards so much better that people want them to be nerfed...
You are blatantly wrong.
Just for the record, I didn't say that rogue isn't the best. I just think that people who complain about rogue are exaggerating a little bit too much. The word broken should only be used if there is something really destructive for the game to the point people quit playing because of it and rogue right now doesn't fall into that category. At least for me.
I'd combine that nerf-to-4-mana with a Preparation redesign. "The next spell you cast this turn with a cost of 3 or less is free." Rogue design is cramped, because any spell has to take Preparation into account. This means that it's usually hard to print good Rogue spells. Sometimes some slip through. But by redesigning Prep to no longer ramp out big spells, it frees up designers for more interesting Rogue spells in the future.
Give waggle pick the paladin treatment, make it eight mana
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
Evil Miscreant is not a problem? Vendetta for 0 mana is not a problem? Prep is not a problem?
ALL THIS FUCKING CLASS is a problem
Waggle Pick isn't the problem though... It's a Deathrattle card,which means an Ooze/Harrison shits on it... If it weren't for Raiding Party tutoring it,alongside cards that synergize with it,it would barely see play...
"この 先は 暗い 夜道 だけが も 知らない それでも信じて 進むんだ 星が その道 を 少し でも 照らしてくをるのを"
I love playing Rogue, but I have to agree... Raiding Party really is kinda busted in most formats. The fact that you can pull out 3 key cards of your deck on turn 1 with a Preparation is kinda nuts.
I actually even forgot to mention how opressing it is to play against Kingsbane rogue in wild simply because of this stupid card.
Why give these threads attention? Every single post complaining about it bumps it and keeps it relevant. For all the complaints, Hearthpwn flocks to the nerf threads like moths to a flame.
Pic related: Two threads, one with "good vibes" and the other a "stale, repetitive" one. And yet, one has 10 times the views of the other.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
its the most probable nerf since its rare.... they wont touch waggle or prep (epics) and certainly not leeroy or edwin (legs)
Raiding Party would be fair without Preparation. Rogue in general would be fair without Preparation. That is what needs to be nerfed or rotated.
You are missing the KEY aspect to the argument: Preperation is the iconic card for Rogue, literally all rogue spells have been designed around it. To change Prep would be to fundamentally change a class more than any other nerf in the history of the game.
At least the OP is looking at the data and reality, Raiding Party is oppressively strong, and if there is to be nerfs it is the most likely, and most appropriate nerf. Wagglepick IMO could see a nerf but I don't go around making threads about it.
tl;dr Prep is key to Rogue identity, Raiding Party is not. OP made a concise thread about a prevalent issue in the game, so props to you. Anyone who thinks what OP was saying belongs in the salt thread is simply an argumentative, ignorant troll. Don't have to call anyone out, you know exactly who you are, you're the one never offering a valuable opinion that is your own.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
EXACTLY THIS. Jade Druid at the beginning of KotFT was oppressive, Aggro Shaman at the start of Mean Streets was oppressive. People who shit memories should refrain from using words they don't understand, or have context for.
If you thought you knew what you think I know, then you'd know I knew you knew I know.
If people are ok with the wild growth and nourish nerfs, then they should be ok with a prep nerf. At least make prep reduce cost by 2 instead of 3. And just nuke raiding party to hell...
I actually agree with literally everything you have said. Thanks for backing me up. Seemingly some haters around here are accusing me for just making another salt thread when as a matter of fact I just wanted to point out the real problem in rogues gameplan if there is any.
By the way, speaking of those iconic cards, I wasn't playing when Nourish and Wild Growth were nerfed to ground (in December) but as of now I totally disagree with that move, because mana ramp is what druid has been known ever since ... You just don't take away cards that define class identity. Same goes for Preparation. It's been rogues thing to cheat out mana for tempo swings and Prep is no exception. As if Sprint and Vanish werent super slow and bad enough on their own now people want the only card that makes them work removed...
Just HOF Leeroy Jenkins. Easy 16 damage for 8 mana. Leeroy for 6, Waggle with second attack for 4, Leeroy again for 6. Charge is not fun. Leeroy has burst from spells and weapons, it shouldn't have any charge minions.
You missed the whole point of this article. Of course that combo happens quite often when they play Prep-Raiding Party early on followed up with the weapon on turn 4 and 6/6 worth of stats (with taunt) so by the time you are spending your mana, resources and time to deal with them (alongside EVIL Miscreant and a couple of Lackeys) you find yourself already low enough to be bursted down from 15 HP or less. If Raiding Party was 4 mana those 16 damage turns would be significantly rarer.