in the last days after the Announcement of the Single Player Announcement again some of you were asking for a Tournament Mode. But i have actually no clue of how such a mode would look like.
This is not a salt thread about how Blizzard is not delivering, I rather am curious about your Thoughts and Ideas.
And sorry if this discussion has been already made, I´m new to the forum.
you queue into a tournament until 8-16 players are found. Everyone plays vs his opponent. Early winners can spectate the other matches. Losers can queue into another match/tournament.
Repeat until a winner is found. Winner gets 50 gold.
Thats it. Sounds boring? It is. I don’t know why the community is demanding it so much.
Years ago, I think during TGT, when I was one of those folks screaming for Tournament mode, I listened to a major Blizzard dev speak on a podcast about it. They said that they knew it was highly desired and wanted to add it in. However, they then realized the difficulty of the above question: What, the @()#) would an actual 'tournament mode' look like? They never could find an answer.
Intrigued, I then started asking on forums and reading other people's opinions on the matter. I've come to the same conclusion:
You guys have no (#$)#)( idea what you want.
A few of you, individually, MAY have an actual cohesive mentality that could actually be implemented. Far Far **FAR** more of you do not. You have some vague image or, at best, a small trailer of content of some sort of 'Tournament system' that quickly glosses over the major design issues, sort of like listening to a 10 year old complain about why we aren't all riding in flying cars yet. Some don't even have that and just want either "what I see on twitch stream, but IN THE GAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!" or else REALLY want some other feature, like banning or a best of 3 system, or 'no netdecking' and using 'tournament mode' as a replacement term for it.
Many of the actual ideas tend to be rather dull (just like arena, but you make your own decks) or has a lot of problems for anyone outside a VERY small niche of people (most people don't have time to sit in a 3-5 hour series of games, especially if it involves a lot of waiting for other players. Most people that CAN do so are already playing the many online tournaments already available through third parties).
Lastly, I got to see the absolute disaster of a Tournament mode that Class Royal did a few years ago and realized that a bad system is NOT better than no system at all.
So, I'll be honest, I think the big mistake of last year with Tournament mode wasn't in canceling it; it was in announcing it in the first place. Even if they WERE working on it (I think they were) they should've held that close until they were close to a demo.
No, actually they shouldn't' have bothered. As said, we HAVE a fully fledged tournament system in HTC (now Masters) and a lot of side tournaments that pop up elsewhere. MUCH better marketing so that folks can find them would be greatly appreciated, but what's more needed are tools to help tournament runners RUN their tournaments rather than trying to make some automated thing in the client. What's needed a WHOLE lot more is social elements. I'd take a guild/clan system by far over a 'tournament' system anyday. THAT can be much better pictured and is something not already handled by outside systems right now. And a guild can make their own private tournament much easier than we can make organized groups right now.
In any case, the point is that this really is a case of 'the customer doesn't know what they want, but by God they want it!'
Years ago, I think during TGT, when I was one of those folks screaming for Tournament mode, I listened to a major Blizzard dev speak on a podcast about it. They said that they knew it was highly desired and wanted to add it in. However, they then realized the difficulty of the above question: What, the @()#) would an actual 'tournament mode' look like? They never could find an answer.
Intrigued, I then started asking on forums and reading other people's opinions on the matter. I've come to the same conclusion:
You guys have no (#$)#)( idea what you want.
A few of you, individually, MAY have an actual cohesive mentality that could actually be implemented. Far Far **FAR** more of you do not. You have some vague image or, at best, a small trailer of content of some sort of 'Tournament system' that quickly glosses over the major design issues, sort of like listening to a 10 year old complain about why we aren't all riding in flying cars yet. Some don't even have that and just want either "what I see on twitch stream, but IN THE GAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!" or else REALLY want some other feature, like banning or a best of 3 system, or 'no netdecking' and using 'tournament mode' as a replacement term for it.
Many of the actual ideas tend to be rather dull (just like arena, but you make your own decks) or has a lot of problems for anyone outside a VERY small niche of people (most people don't have time to sit in a 3-5 hour series of games, especially if it involves a lot of waiting for other players. Most people that CAN do so are already playing the many online tournaments already available through third parties).
Lastly, I got to see the absolute disaster of a Tournament mode that Class Royal did a few years ago and realized that a bad system is NOT better than no system at all.
So, I'll be honest, I think the big mistake of last year with Tournament mode wasn't in canceling it; it was in announcing it in the first place. Even if they WERE working on it (I think they were) they should've held that close until they were close to a demo.
No, actually they shouldn't' have bothered. As said, we HAVE a fully fledged tournament system in HTC (now Masters) and a lot of side tournaments that pop up elsewhere. MUCH better marketing so that folks can find them would be greatly appreciated, but what's more needed are tools to help tournament runners RUN their tournaments rather than trying to make some automated thing in the client. What's needed a WHOLE lot more is social elements. I'd take a guild/clan system by far over a 'tournament' system anyday. THAT can be much better pictured and is something not already handled by outside systems right now. And a guild can make their own private tournament much easier than we can make organized groups right now.
In any case, the point is that this really is a case of 'the customer doesn't know what they want, but by God they want it!'
you queue into a tournament until 8-16 players are found. Everyone plays vs his opponent. Early winners can spectate the other matches. Losers can queue into another match/tournament.
Repeat until a winner is found. Winner gets 50 gold.
Thats it. Sounds boring? It is. I don’t know why the community is demanding it so much.
What about you bet your 50g and at the end if you win you take like 80% of the reward pot and the other finalist gets 20%. Doesn't sound that boring anymore right?
But sure now the community is the bad one because it wants more modes. Let's just play this boring tavern brawl and ranked that is the same for the past what? Beginning of the game? sounds right. Arena is the only thing that keeps the game at least a little bit fresh for me.
Years ago, I think during TGT, when I was one of those folks screaming for Tournament mode, I listened to a major Blizzard dev speak on a podcast about it. They said that they knew it was highly desired and wanted to add it in. However, they then realized the difficulty of the above question: What, the @()#) would an actual 'tournament mode' look like? They never could find an answer.
Intrigued, I then started asking on forums and reading other people's opinions on the matter. I've come to the same conclusion:
You guys have no (#$)#)( idea what you want.
A few of you, individually, MAY have an actual cohesive mentality that could actually be implemented. Far Far **FAR** more of you do not. You have some vague image or, at best, a small trailer of content of some sort of 'Tournament system' that quickly glosses over the major design issues, sort of like listening to a 10 year old complain about why we aren't all riding in flying cars yet. Some don't even have that and just want either "what I see on twitch stream, but IN THE GAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!" or else REALLY want some other feature, like banning or a best of 3 system, or 'no netdecking' and using 'tournament mode' as a replacement term for it.
Many of the actual ideas tend to be rather dull (just like arena, but you make your own decks) or has a lot of problems for anyone outside a VERY small niche of people (most people don't have time to sit in a 3-5 hour series of games, especially if it involves a lot of waiting for other players. Most people that CAN do so are already playing the many online tournaments already available through third parties).
Lastly, I got to see the absolute disaster of a Tournament mode that Class Royal did a few years ago and realized that a bad system is NOT better than no system at all.
So, I'll be honest, I think the big mistake of last year with Tournament mode wasn't in canceling it; it was in announcing it in the first place. Even if they WERE working on it (I think they were) they should've held that close until they were close to a demo.
No, actually they shouldn't' have bothered. As said, we HAVE a fully fledged tournament system in HTC (now Masters) and a lot of side tournaments that pop up elsewhere. MUCH better marketing so that folks can find them would be greatly appreciated, but what's more needed are tools to help tournament runners RUN their tournaments rather than trying to make some automated thing in the client. What's needed a WHOLE lot more is social elements. I'd take a guild/clan system by far over a 'tournament' system anyday. THAT can be much better pictured and is something not already handled by outside systems right now. And a guild can make their own private tournament much easier than we can make organized groups right now.
In any case, the point is that this really is a case of 'the customer doesn't know what they want, but by God they want it!'
We're the players, not the game designers. It's not our job to come up with tournament mode. It's the job of the game devs to come up with something, give it to us, then listen to feedback on how to make it better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
We're the players, not the game designers. It's not our job to come up with tournament mode. It's the job of the game devs to come up with something, give it to us, then listen to feedback on how to make it better.
When the playerbase is able to dictate what they want, like say, more loot in a looter or for card games to be dictated by more than just what RNG and your deck choice dictated, then designers have a clear goal and plan that they can aim for and can build accordingly.
When the playerbase screams and demands for a very vague term like Tournament Mode, or 'a good meta', that said community can't agree on, it becomes difficult to just expect the designers to figure out what you like when you don't even know what that is.
And if said game dev then tries and realizes there isn't any design for a 'Tournament mode' that said public would actually like then their best answer is to NOT do it and instead focus on features that are they believe have a better handle of , like a better PvE experience.
To put it simply: If you can't figure out the solution, and the expert you ask to look into it says there isn't a solution that's viable, there's not much to do but accept that.
you queue into a tournament until 8-16 players are found. Everyone plays vs his opponent. Early winners can spectate the other matches. Losers can queue into another match/tournament.
Repeat until a winner is found. Winner gets 50 gold.
Thats it. Sounds boring? It is. I don’t know why the community is demanding it so much.
What about you bet your 50g and at the end if you win you take like 80% of the reward pot and the other finalist gets 20%. Doesn't sound that boring anymore right?
No, that still sounds boring, now it just also has an entry fee. You've made it worse.
I wouldn't design a tournament mode, is my answer.
The first thing I'd implement would be a robust achievement system, including better progression rewards.
Then I'd look into social features, like guilds or clans or whatever, that could be used to play Tavern Brawls online with people in your guild. EDIT: I actually meant Fireside Gatherings here, not Tavern Brawls, but yes, those too.
Then I'd look into the viability of new game modes - I think my first shot would be Wild Lite, which is Wild but with the stuff people keep bitching about banned. You want Big Priest? Play Wild. Ban Barnes? Wild Lite.
Then, after all that, I'd start thinking about a Tournament mode.
WE ARE NOT THE GAME DESIGNERS, WE ARE THE PLAYERS.
IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO COME UP WITH THE NEXT THING.
how can you not understand this?
Sure. I want Shuffle mode next. What's Shuffle mode? Not my job to come up with it, just implement it for me, thanks.
If you're asking for something to be in the game, you should be able to explain what you're asking for. So many people can't explain what they want from a tournament mode, and those that can often contradict each other with what they want.
The biggest problem is that it would make people play ranked ladder less because they will get their competition in tournament mode, so they needed to add something rank based (like only people let's say a range of 3 ranks can participate) and then also add some star win/loss maybe.
But that's just how I feel about it, because I would like small tournaments, but with the limited time I have when working full-time I would rather play ladder if it was just for fun tournament mode.
We've been spending the past few posts saying exactly that.
So yes. We do not know what an in game tournament system would actually BE.
In fact, the entire POINT of the original post is offering this question.
Now if you want to go beyond a bumper sticker's explanation of "a tournament goes up, you enter it" then it would be highly welcome.
If you want to keep repeating "it's the dev's jobs." I'll keep repeating "they did do their jobs and said it's not feasible."
So either we provide an example of how it's feasible, with enough agreeing to make a loud enough voice to make the devs notice, accept the dev's findings and let go of it, or we keep repeating the same lines over and over.
We've been spending the past few posts saying exactly that.
So yes. We do not know what an in game tournament system would actually BE.
In fact, the entire POINT of the original post is offering this question.
Now if you want to go beyond a bumper sticker's explanation of "a tournament goes up, you enter it" then it would be highly welcome.
If you want to keep repeating "it's the dev's jobs." I'll keep repeating "they did do their jobs and said it's not feasible."
So either we provide an example of how it's feasible, with enough agreeing to make a loud enough voice to make the devs notice, accept the dev's findings and let go of it, or we keep repeating the same lines over and over.
I'm ok with any of those three choices.
I mean the mere concept of what a tournament is. You wanted to make an example with "shuffle mode" but that's not a real thing anywhere and has zero context. On the other hand, we know generally what is meant by "tournament." This thread was to talk about specifics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
I mean the mere concept of what a tournament is. You wanted to make an example with "shuffle mode" but that's not a real thing anywhere and has zero context. On the other hand, we know generally what is meant by "tournament." This thread was to talk about specifics.
So which is it - you shouldn't have to describe what you want when you say tournament mode, or you should?
I have seen people ask for over the years:
A method of signing up for Blizzard sanctioned tournaments that get you points for the whole World Champion thing, in-game
Brawliseum, but all the time
Groups of 8-32 players face off over X amount of hours in a bracket, winner moves on (with varying ideas on game/match type)
Round-robin style everyone plays everyone in a group, whoever has the most wins is the winner
Just straight-up custom game mode stuff, I don't even know why they were calling it tournament mode, though theoretically you could use it to make actual tournaments with bans I guess?
Most of these never list the format for the tournaments, how deck selection would work, bans/no bans, etc
All of these are extremely different ideas. How is Blizzard supposed to know which one people actually want? Personally, as I said, I don't want any of them before a bunch of other stuff. Asking people to explain what they mean when they say 'Tournament Mode' is not a silly question.
(Shuffle was a thing me and my friends did with Yugioh back in the day - you both make a deck, then shuffle them together and split it, each playing with half of the newly shuffled deck. Lots of fun, it was just meant to be a silly example.)
I mean the mere concept of what a tournament is. You wanted to make an example with "shuffle mode" but that's not a real thing anywhere and has zero context. On the other hand, we know generally what is meant by "tournament." This thread was to talk about specifics.
So which is it - you shouldn't have to describe what you want when you say tournament mode, or you should?
I have seen people ask for over the years:
A method of signing up for Blizzard sanctioned tournaments that get you points for the whole World Champion thing, in-game
Brawliseum, but all the time
Groups of 8-32 players face off over X amount of hours in a bracket, winner moves on (with varying ideas on game/match type)
Round-robin style everyone plays everyone in a group, whoever has the most wins is the winner
Just straight-up custom game mode stuff, I don't even know why they were calling it tournament mode, though theoretically you could use it to make actual tournaments with bans I guess?
Most of these never list the format for the tournaments, how deck selection would work, bans/no bans, etc
All of these are extremely different ideas. How is Blizzard supposed to know which one people actually want? Personally, as I said, I don't want any of them before a bunch of other stuff. Asking people to explain what they mean when they say 'Tournament Mode' is not a silly question.
(Shuffle was a thing me and my friends did with Yugioh back in the day - you both make a deck, then shuffle them together and split it, each playing with half of the newly shuffled deck. Lots of fun, it was just meant to be a silly example.)
I'd honestly give up mate, they just can't grasp what you're explaining, despite you putting it in very simple terms. You're going to go round in circles because they clearly haven't thought this through whereas it's obvious that you have and rather than just deciding that what you like is correct, have tried to play devil's advocate and come up with solutions.
Hey Guys,
in the last days after the Announcement of the Single Player Announcement again some of you were asking for a Tournament Mode. But i have actually no clue of how such a mode would look like.
This is not a salt thread about how Blizzard is not delivering, I rather am curious about your Thoughts and Ideas.
And sorry if this discussion has been already made, I´m new to the forum.
you queue into a tournament until 8-16 players are found. Everyone plays vs his opponent. Early winners can spectate the other matches. Losers can queue into another match/tournament.
Repeat until a winner is found. Winner gets 50 gold.
Thats it. Sounds boring? It is. I don’t know why the community is demanding it so much.
Indeed, i think the complications of tournament are exactly the reason why the devs decided to put the project in standby (probably forever).
The mother of all the issues: what do you do if a player disconnects?
Tournaments can only be efficiently run in-presence, eg in Fireside Gatherings which we already have.
The best thing they could do is enabling a Constructed Arena.
something like poker sites
i dont care how, just give us the mode ffs
Totally this. Sit'n'Go style. You see an 8-person tourney starting in 10 minutes, you hurry up and make a deck that fits the requirement.
Each would need options:
etc etc. Options would be set by the player creating the tournament.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Years ago, I think during TGT, when I was one of those folks screaming for Tournament mode, I listened to a major Blizzard dev speak on a podcast about it. They said that they knew it was highly desired and wanted to add it in. However, they then realized the difficulty of the above question: What, the @()#) would an actual 'tournament mode' look like? They never could find an answer.
Intrigued, I then started asking on forums and reading other people's opinions on the matter. I've come to the same conclusion:
You guys have no (#$)#)( idea what you want.
A few of you, individually, MAY have an actual cohesive mentality that could actually be implemented. Far Far **FAR** more of you do not. You have some vague image or, at best, a small trailer of content of some sort of 'Tournament system' that quickly glosses over the major design issues, sort of like listening to a 10 year old complain about why we aren't all riding in flying cars yet. Some don't even have that and just want either "what I see on twitch stream, but IN THE GAAAAAMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!" or else REALLY want some other feature, like banning or a best of 3 system, or 'no netdecking' and using 'tournament mode' as a replacement term for it.
Many of the actual ideas tend to be rather dull (just like arena, but you make your own decks) or has a lot of problems for anyone outside a VERY small niche of people (most people don't have time to sit in a 3-5 hour series of games, especially if it involves a lot of waiting for other players. Most people that CAN do so are already playing the many online tournaments already available through third parties).
Lastly, I got to see the absolute disaster of a Tournament mode that Class Royal did a few years ago and realized that a bad system is NOT better than no system at all.
So, I'll be honest, I think the big mistake of last year with Tournament mode wasn't in canceling it; it was in announcing it in the first place. Even if they WERE working on it (I think they were) they should've held that close until they were close to a demo.
No, actually they shouldn't' have bothered. As said, we HAVE a fully fledged tournament system in HTC (now Masters) and a lot of side tournaments that pop up elsewhere. MUCH better marketing so that folks can find them would be greatly appreciated, but what's more needed are tools to help tournament runners RUN their tournaments rather than trying to make some automated thing in the client. What's needed a WHOLE lot more is social elements. I'd take a guild/clan system by far over a 'tournament' system anyday. THAT can be much better pictured and is something not already handled by outside systems right now. And a guild can make their own private tournament much easier than we can make organized groups right now.
In any case, the point is that this really is a case of 'the customer doesn't know what they want, but by God they want it!'
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
This
What about you bet your 50g and at the end if you win you take like 80% of the reward pot and the other finalist gets 20%. Doesn't sound that boring anymore right?
But sure now the community is the bad one because it wants more modes. Let's just play this boring tavern brawl and ranked that is the same for the past what? Beginning of the game? sounds right. Arena is the only thing that keeps the game at least a little bit fresh for me.
We're the players, not the game designers. It's not our job to come up with tournament mode. It's the job of the game devs to come up with something, give it to us, then listen to feedback on how to make it better.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
When the playerbase is able to dictate what they want, like say, more loot in a looter or for card games to be dictated by more than just what RNG and your deck choice dictated, then designers have a clear goal and plan that they can aim for and can build accordingly.
When the playerbase screams and demands for a very vague term like Tournament Mode, or 'a good meta', that said community can't agree on, it becomes difficult to just expect the designers to figure out what you like when you don't even know what that is.
And if said game dev then tries and realizes there isn't any design for a 'Tournament mode' that said public would actually like then their best answer is to NOT do it and instead focus on features that are they believe have a better handle of , like a better PvE experience.
To put it simply: If you can't figure out the solution, and the expert you ask to look into it says there isn't a solution that's viable, there's not much to do but accept that.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
No, that still sounds boring, now it just also has an entry fee. You've made it worse.
I wouldn't design a tournament mode, is my answer.
The first thing I'd implement would be a robust achievement system, including better progression rewards.
Then I'd look into social features, like guilds or clans or whatever, that could be used to play Tavern Brawls online with people in your guild. EDIT: I actually meant Fireside Gatherings here, not Tavern Brawls, but yes, those too.
Then I'd look into the viability of new game modes - I think my first shot would be Wild Lite, which is Wild but with the stuff people keep bitching about banned. You want Big Priest? Play Wild. Ban Barnes? Wild Lite.
Then, after all that, I'd start thinking about a Tournament mode.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
WE ARE NOT THE GAME DESIGNERS, WE ARE THE PLAYERS.
IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO COME UP WITH THE NEXT THING.
how can you not understand this?
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Sure. I want Shuffle mode next. What's Shuffle mode? Not my job to come up with it, just implement it for me, thanks.
If you're asking for something to be in the game, you should be able to explain what you're asking for. So many people can't explain what they want from a tournament mode, and those that can often contradict each other with what they want.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
........you have no idea what a tournament is?
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
The biggest problem is that it would make people play ranked ladder less because they will get their competition in tournament mode, so they needed to add something rank based (like only people let's say a range of 3 ranks can participate) and then also add some star win/loss maybe.
But that's just how I feel about it, because I would like small tournaments, but with the limited time I have when working full-time I would rather play ladder if it was just for fun tournament mode.
We've been spending the past few posts saying exactly that.
So yes. We do not know what an in game tournament system would actually BE.
In fact, the entire POINT of the original post is offering this question.
Now if you want to go beyond a bumper sticker's explanation of "a tournament goes up, you enter it" then it would be highly welcome.
If you want to keep repeating "it's the dev's jobs." I'll keep repeating "they did do their jobs and said it's not feasible."
So either we provide an example of how it's feasible, with enough agreeing to make a loud enough voice to make the devs notice, accept the dev's findings and let go of it, or we keep repeating the same lines over and over.
I'm ok with any of those three choices.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
I mean the mere concept of what a tournament is. You wanted to make an example with "shuffle mode" but that's not a real thing anywhere and has zero context. On the other hand, we know generally what is meant by "tournament." This thread was to talk about specifics.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
So which is it - you shouldn't have to describe what you want when you say tournament mode, or you should?
I have seen people ask for over the years:
Most of these never list the format for the tournaments, how deck selection would work, bans/no bans, etc
All of these are extremely different ideas. How is Blizzard supposed to know which one people actually want? Personally, as I said, I don't want any of them before a bunch of other stuff. Asking people to explain what they mean when they say 'Tournament Mode' is not a silly question.
(Shuffle was a thing me and my friends did with Yugioh back in the day - you both make a deck, then shuffle them together and split it, each playing with half of the newly shuffled deck. Lots of fun, it was just meant to be a silly example.)
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
I'd honestly give up mate, they just can't grasp what you're explaining, despite you putting it in very simple terms. You're going to go round in circles because they clearly haven't thought this through whereas it's obvious that you have and rather than just deciding that what you like is correct, have tried to play devil's advocate and come up with solutions.
I would be happy with permanent Brawliseum, wild and standard