I have to admit that having to play specifically control warrior to have a good matchup against rogue is kinda annoying, but at least the deck doesn't feel too bad to play against, except for sap: you could counter all the rogue burst with taunts if they didn't had that card. Nerfing sap to 3 mana would probably be enough to make the class more in line with others. In alternative I think that nerfing wagglepick to a 3/2 weapon could be very effective: it's 2 less damage and you can't prep raining party into wagglepick double 3/3 anymore, which is a big deal, the deck could even become bad (I would try to avoid killing a deck if possible, it's not right to nerf things into nothing). Last but not least the most crucial card for the rogue class is preparation: since they nerfed innervate to only give 1 mana I could see preparation only discount 2 mana from the next spell you cast: that would surely be enough to tune down the deck a lot, but again I'm afraid that would even be too much. Since there will always be a best deck, I would probably nerf nothing at the moment, I'm totally fine with tempo rogue being the best deck at the moment, it's a lot less oppressive than things like old pirate warrior and is surely less boring than playing against control warrior with double brew master and Elysiana.
- Preparation should be 10 mana^^- Edwin maybe 11 mana. People can still try to play it with the coin if they have it^^Shouldn't expect to succeed though^^- Backstab should be 3 mana at least. I mean 2 damage to an undamaged minion is a lot^^
Hahahahah love to see people whining about their own incompetence. Learn to play and get better. The meta is fine. Rogue is fine.
I wish when people post "evidence" for a claim, they would actually bother to read it first. 53% WinRate? So OP, y'alll! (Look up Zoolock. I think you're going to spit your milk if 53% WR concerns you that much...) < 35% against Control Warrior?! There's your answer right there. Tell me again how good Rogue is? (Hint: It's not...)
Sigh... Rogue is fine. Nothing to see here. Moving on...
Learn to read numbers , people are forced to play sleep warrior because of how oppressive rogue is against everything.
Learn to read words. I listed the numbers righ there in my post.
Sreiously... "it's like living with a group of Germans...."
I wish when people post "evidence" for a claim, they would actually bother to read it first. 53% WinRate? So OP, y'alll! (Look up Zoolock. I think you're going to spit your milk if 53% WR concerns you that much...) < 35% against Control Warrior?! There's your answer right there. Tell me again how good Rogue is? (Hint: It's not...)
Sigh... Rogue is fine. Nothing to see here. Moving on...
Learn to read numbers , people are forced to play sleep warrior because of how oppressive rogue is against everything.
Learn to read words. I listed the numbers righ there in my post.
Sreiously... "it's like living with a group of Germans...."
he's right though, you just took the average winrate. Meanwhile the most popular Tempo Rogue list actually has a 56% winrate, while the overall highest winrate list is at 60% while having above 50% winrates against literally every single other deck in the meta except the 3 control Warrior decks.
So yeah, Rogue is not fine, it's about as fine as Even Paladin and Cubelock where at the start of Witchwood
Is any class safe from people asking for nerfs? I don’t play rogue but it doesn’t need nerfing at least it’s actually fun to play against unlike fall to sleep warrior
>55% winrate against all the classes except warrior.
> doesn’t need nerfing
Okay. People are forced to play sleep warrior because of coffee rogue
55% winrate and it needs a nerf? Which should be the percentage winrate to be fair for you? 50%?
OP wants to nerf Sap to 4 mana? Seriously? Then why tf wouldn't you just play Walk the Plank?
Those nerfs are way too harsh. I'm glad most of the whiners on here aren't making the balance decisions...lol
The only nerfs I think are probably coming is Leeroy Jenkins getting HoF because a neutral charge minion constantly has to be designed around and limits design space, and probably Waggle Pick just because it creates way too much potential for flooding board and opponent getting so far behind they just can't recover. Maybe Raiding Party, but I honestly think that one is balanced enough if Waggle Pick gets a nerf to either 5 mana or made to only be 2 or 3 attack instead of 4 to disrupt the interaction with the taunt pirates.
he's right though, you just took the average winrate. Meanwhile the most popular Tempo Rogue list actually has a 56% winrate, while the overall highest winrate list is at 60% while having above 50% winrates against literally every single other deck in the meta except the 3 control Warrior decks.
So yeah, Rogue is not fine, it's about as fine as Even Paladin and Cubelock where at the start of Witchwood
I used the data that was presented and the numbers were fairly clearly evident there. Regardless, Rogue not being fine is completely subjective and hardly backed up by the statistical evidence provided in the link (as I demonstrated). Having above 50% winrate against a selection of decks is hardly grounds for nerf-whining. In fact this is roughly what a Tier 2 deck should have. There are decks with much better winrates against a wider variety of the meta than Rogue. Don't get me wrong though, the deck is certainly polarising garbage. OP and requiring nerf though? Hardly... unless you plan to nerf half of RoS decks as well to compensate...
he's right though, you just took the average winrate. Meanwhile the most popular Tempo Rogue list actually has a 56% winrate, while the overall highest winrate list is at 60% while having above 50% winrates against literally every single other deck in the meta except the 3 control Warrior decks.
So yeah, Rogue is not fine, it's about as fine as Even Paladin and Cubelock where at the start of Witchwood
I used the data that was presented and the numbers were fairly clearly evident there. Regardless, Rogue not being fine is completely subjective and hardly backed up by the statistical evidence provided in the link (as I demonstrated). Having above 50% winrate against a selection of decks is hardly grounds for nerf-whining. In fact this is roughly what a Tier 2 deck should have. There are decks with much better winrates against a wider variety of the meta than Rogue. Don't get me wrong though, the deck is certainly polarising garbage. OP and requiring nerf though? Hardly... unless you plan to nerf half of RoS decks as well to compensate...
can you not misconstrue what I pointed out?
I used the same source as you did and merely pointed out that all you did was take the overall winrate of ANY tempo Rogue deck (which means including terrible lists that drag down the voerall winrate) and presented you with the winrates for the actually popular/effective lists, which reflect far better how well the deck performs.
Also, in case you don't understand what that means, Rogue has a positive winrate against ALL DECKS that aren'T Control Warrior. That'S not just polarising, that means that only one class out of 8 actually has a reasonable chance to consistently beat the deck. Compare that to other high winrate decks like Mech Hunter which has a far less insane matchup spread.
But hey, if your idea of a great meta is a literal 2-class power struggle where every other deck is just suboptimal in comparison then go ahead...but Blizzard doesn't share your sentiment as proven time and time again, which basically means that nerfs will happen, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
Fuck me sideways. Which is it people? What needs a Nerf? Is it Bomb Warrior? Is it Tempo Rogue? Is it Token Druid? Is it Big Priest? Is it Darkest Hour Lock? Is it The Coin?
Because I've seen Threads on all of these recently. Yes. Even The Coin. I'm not making that up.
Could we just have one place for all of these? I'm getting sick of it to be honest.
Oh. Wait.
There's The Salt Thread.
Just go and air your greivences there FFS. That's what it's for!!
For those defending rogue against any kind of nerf, have you played against turn two 10/10 or 8/8? Loosing a game that early shouldn’t happen in standard. If warrior does get any nerfs then rogue will just become more of an infestation. I think they just need a couple of smart and balanced adjustments.
Fuck me sideways. Which is it people? What needs a Nerf? Is it Bomb Warrior? Is it Tempo Rogue? Is it Token Druid? Is it Big Priest? Is it Darkest Hour Lock? Is it The Coin?
Because I've seen Threads on all of these recently. Yes. Even The Coin. I'm not making that up.
Could we just have one place for all of these? I'm getting sick of it to be honest.
Oh. Wait.
There's The Salt Thread.
Just go and air your greivences there FFS. That's what it's for!!
I like how your only contribution to any of these threads is just "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, go salt thread"
at this point you're pretty much just as obnxious and pointless as the threads that trigger you.
But rogue is fine you say? Let’s look at some facts.
-Rogue is by far the most played class on both ladder as well as HTC.
-Rogue is represented the most (15) at HTC.
-it has one of the highest winrates.
-Winrate >55% against 8/9 classes available.
-People are forced to play sleep warrior against it and even then a few tech cards makes it very favourable eg nomi, scheme
-it has the best tempo tools and combo is made easier and idiot proof with the introduction of 1 mana lackeys and discover a spell lackeys, doing combo’s without being good has never been easier in the whole history of hearthstone
-it has the best unconditional single target removal tool in the form of SAP
- A million bounce effect that reduces the minions cost by 2 as well making insane stuff possible
-Some classes maybe have 1viable deck, rogue has endless variations with a core of 25 cards that are amazing
Rogue is the biggest problem class there is with unfair advantage in tempo generation, card draw and value generation , yet the majority of the playerbase is willingly turning a blind eye towards it. This is not a new phenonemon as it existed during the era of deathstalker rexar as well, professional, hunter players thought rexar should be buffed to 5 mana instead of staying at 6 because the hero power and immediate effect was not good enough.
The only reason why tempo/aggro rogue is not a tier 1 deck with over 58% winrate is because of control warrior existing and yet the majority of the people are targeting the wrong class... is there a conspiracy going on here?
Anyway let’s talk about the busted rogue class which is represented the most in the upcoming hct as a nobrainer inclusion because it’s busted according to all the pro players.
Let’s see a list of possible rogue nerfs to test the waters include:
Preparation> change it to 1 mana.
Backstab > zap has 1 mana overload so change it to 1 mana or deal 1 damage
Raiding party > change it to 4 mana.
Sap> it’s a better execute, polymorph, shield slam without conditions, change to 4 mana.
Extra passive to hero power> Rogue always goes first, so they never get the coin.
SI agent > change it to 4 mana
Myra’s unstable element> let’s make it 7 mana, why not?
Evil miscreant > change it to 4 mana.
EdWin van cleef> make it 4 mana.
4 mana taunt pirate> change it to 5 mana
What else am I missing?
Wow so much hate to rogue cards.
Some of this possible nerfs are fine and very possible but other... It's only hate XD
I think Blizzard will change some cards in next patch don't worry :)
Fuck me sideways. Which is it people? What needs a Nerf? Is it Bomb Warrior? Is it Tempo Rogue? Is it Token Druid? Is it Big Priest? Is it Darkest Hour Lock? Is it The Coin?
Because I've seen Threads on all of these recently. Yes. Even The Coin. I'm not making that up.
Could we just have one place for all of these? I'm getting sick of it to be honest.
Oh. Wait.
There's The Salt Thread.
Just go and air your greivences there FFS. That's what it's for!!
I like how your only contribution to any of these threads is just "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, go salt thread"
at this point you're pretty much just as obnxious and pointless as the threads that trigger you.
This is a forum
we discuss things here
excessively
get used to it
Agreed. But can't we just calm it down a bit. The reason I point out the Salt Thread every time is simple. Because most of these comments belong there. Not in yet another duplicate Shit Post. You can simply replace Waaaahhhh Warrior is OPOPOPIEEEEE with the word Rogue, Druid, Priest, The Coin etc etc.
Blizzard devs state in most recent nerfs like the wild growth nerf that they rotate basic cards when they are so good that they become used in every deck of that class. I don't think a nerf is necessary; I just think some rogue cards that are used in every deck need to be rotated out of standard. For instance: Backstab and eviserate. I have never seen a rogue deck without double backstab and double eviserate since the beta of hearthstone. Some of these cards are too powerful when combo'd with new sets.
Fuck me sideways. Which is it people? What needs a Nerf? Is it Bomb Warrior? Is it Tempo Rogue? Is it Token Druid? Is it Big Priest? Is it Darkest Hour Lock? Is it The Coin?
Because I've seen Threads on all of these recently. Yes. Even The Coin. I'm not making that up.
Could we just have one place for all of these? I'm getting sick of it to be honest.
Oh. Wait.
There's The Salt Thread.
Just go and air your greivences there FFS. That's what it's for!!
I like how your only contribution to any of these threads is just "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, go salt thread"
at this point you're pretty much just as obnxious and pointless as the threads that trigger you.
This is a forum
we discuss things here
excessively
get used to it
Agreed. But can't we just calm it down a bit. The reason I point out the Salt Thread every time is simple. Because most of these comments belong there. Not in yet another duplicate Shit Post. You can simply replace Waaaahhhh Warrior is OPOPOPIEEEEE with the word Rogue, Druid, Priest, The Coin etc etc.
And it would read exactly the same.
well yeah, but that's par for the course. Some threads are more thought out than others, same goes for comments. Thing is, there really isn't much else to talk about other than card balance or deck building and a lot of the times people feel like they need to express their opinions in a seperate thread.
The salt thread is....useless in the end. You don't go there to bring up a topic that bothers you, you go there to vent. At the end of the day you have to consider that a large portion of this forum's user base is barely able to form a coherent argument let alone comprehend one, which is why there will always be a certain amount of "whine threads" that have very little constructive value...but those usually don't last very long anyways.
The ones that do stick around are usually those where an actual discussion goes on and just going around and bombard any thread that even vaguely mentions balance issues with dismissive shitposts won't change things anyways.
If you're so annoyed by them I'd suggest you just avoid any thread that has the name "nerf" in the title. It just happens that those are the most active threads, which is why you'll constantly see them on the front page. You're really only allowing yourself to get worked up over something you have very little control over anyways
I am a big fan of rogue but this don't make me less sick from Leeroy.
The entire charge mechanic should be banned to Wild, it is not a problem in any other game but HS you can't act in opponent turn making charge waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than should be.
Rush is ok.
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I have to admit that having to play specifically control warrior to have a good matchup against rogue is kinda annoying, but at least the deck doesn't feel too bad to play against, except for sap: you could counter all the rogue burst with taunts if they didn't had that card. Nerfing sap to 3 mana would probably be enough to make the class more in line with others. In alternative I think that nerfing wagglepick to a 3/2 weapon could be very effective: it's 2 less damage and you can't prep raining party into wagglepick double 3/3 anymore, which is a big deal, the deck could even become bad (I would try to avoid killing a deck if possible, it's not right to nerf things into nothing). Last but not least the most crucial card for the rogue class is preparation: since they nerfed innervate to only give 1 mana I could see preparation only discount 2 mana from the next spell you cast: that would surely be enough to tune down the deck a lot, but again I'm afraid that would even be too much. Since there will always be a best deck, I would probably nerf nothing at the moment, I'm totally fine with tempo rogue being the best deck at the moment, it's a lot less oppressive than things like old pirate warrior and is surely less boring than playing against control warrior with double brew master and Elysiana.
I like when rogue gets waggle pick and puts 2 pirates on the board for free + can vendetta for 0 mana or backstabb for zero mana.
And sap is fucking annoying - for 2 mana negates threat of any cost
I agree that Rogue should be nerf^^
- Preparation should be 10 mana^^- Edwin maybe 11 mana. People can still try to play it with the coin if they have it^^Shouldn't expect to succeed though^^- Backstab should be 3 mana at least. I mean 2 damage to an undamaged minion is a lot^^
Hahahahah love to see people whining about their own incompetence. Learn to play and get better. The meta is fine. Rogue is fine.
Learn to read words. I listed the numbers righ there in my post.
Sreiously... "it's like living with a group of Germans...."
he's right though, you just took the average winrate. Meanwhile the most popular Tempo Rogue list actually has a 56% winrate, while the overall highest winrate list is at 60% while having above 50% winrates against literally every single other deck in the meta except the 3 control Warrior decks.
So yeah, Rogue is not fine, it's about as fine as Even Paladin and Cubelock where at the start of Witchwood
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Warrior deserves nerf. All meta is around this class.
55% winrate and it needs a nerf? Which should be the percentage winrate to be fair for you? 50%?
OP wants to nerf Sap to 4 mana? Seriously? Then why tf wouldn't you just play Walk the Plank?
Those nerfs are way too harsh. I'm glad most of the whiners on here aren't making the balance decisions...lol
The only nerfs I think are probably coming is Leeroy Jenkins getting HoF because a neutral charge minion constantly has to be designed around and limits design space, and probably Waggle Pick just because it creates way too much potential for flooding board and opponent getting so far behind they just can't recover. Maybe Raiding Party, but I honestly think that one is balanced enough if Waggle Pick gets a nerf to either 5 mana or made to only be 2 or 3 attack instead of 4 to disrupt the interaction with the taunt pirates.
I used the data that was presented and the numbers were fairly clearly evident there.
Regardless, Rogue not being fine is completely subjective and hardly backed up by the statistical evidence provided in the link (as I demonstrated).
Having above 50% winrate against a selection of decks is hardly grounds for nerf-whining. In fact this is roughly what a Tier 2 deck should have.
There are decks with much better winrates against a wider variety of the meta than Rogue.
Don't get me wrong though, the deck is certainly polarising garbage.
OP and requiring nerf though? Hardly... unless you plan to nerf half of RoS decks as well to compensate...
can you not misconstrue what I pointed out?
I used the same source as you did and merely pointed out that all you did was take the overall winrate of ANY tempo Rogue deck (which means including terrible lists that drag down the voerall winrate) and presented you with the winrates for the actually popular/effective lists, which reflect far better how well the deck performs.
Also, in case you don't understand what that means, Rogue has a positive winrate against ALL DECKS that aren'T Control Warrior. That'S not just polarising, that means that only one class out of 8 actually has a reasonable chance to consistently beat the deck. Compare that to other high winrate decks like Mech Hunter which has a far less insane matchup spread.
But hey, if your idea of a great meta is a literal 2-class power struggle where every other deck is just suboptimal in comparison then go ahead...but Blizzard doesn't share your sentiment as proven time and time again, which basically means that nerfs will happen, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Fuck me sideways. Which is it people? What needs a Nerf? Is it Bomb Warrior? Is it Tempo Rogue? Is it Token Druid? Is it Big Priest? Is it Darkest Hour Lock? Is it The Coin?
Because I've seen Threads on all of these recently. Yes. Even The Coin. I'm not making that up.
Could we just have one place for all of these? I'm getting sick of it to be honest.
Oh. Wait.
There's The Salt Thread.
Just go and air your greivences there FFS. That's what it's for!!
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
For those defending rogue against any kind of nerf, have you played against turn two 10/10 or 8/8? Loosing a game that early shouldn’t happen in standard. If warrior does get any nerfs then rogue will just become more of an infestation. I think they just need a couple of smart and balanced adjustments.
I like how your only contribution to any of these threads is just "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, go salt thread"
at this point you're pretty much just as obnxious and pointless as the threads that trigger you.
This is a forum
we discuss things here
excessively
get used to it
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Kill Leeroy Jenkins, solve the problem (and bomb hunter burst, by the way).
Wow so much hate to rogue cards.
Some of this possible nerfs are fine and very possible but other... It's only hate XD
I think Blizzard will change some cards in next patch don't worry :)
So much sour people learn to counter the decks
Agreed. But can't we just calm it down a bit. The reason I point out the Salt Thread every time is simple. Because most of these comments belong there. Not in yet another duplicate Shit Post. You can simply replace Waaaahhhh Warrior is OPOPOPIEEEEE with the word Rogue, Druid, Priest, The Coin etc etc.
And it would read exactly the same.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Blizzard devs state in most recent nerfs like the wild growth nerf that they rotate basic cards when they are so good that they become used in every deck of that class. I don't think a nerf is necessary; I just think some rogue cards that are used in every deck need to be rotated out of standard. For instance: Backstab and eviserate. I have never seen a rogue deck without double backstab and double eviserate since the beta of hearthstone. Some of these cards are too powerful when combo'd with new sets.
well yeah, but that's par for the course. Some threads are more thought out than others, same goes for comments. Thing is, there really isn't much else to talk about other than card balance or deck building and a lot of the times people feel like they need to express their opinions in a seperate thread.
The salt thread is....useless in the end. You don't go there to bring up a topic that bothers you, you go there to vent. At the end of the day you have to consider that a large portion of this forum's user base is barely able to form a coherent argument let alone comprehend one, which is why there will always be a certain amount of "whine threads" that have very little constructive value...but those usually don't last very long anyways.
The ones that do stick around are usually those where an actual discussion goes on and just going around and bombard any thread that even vaguely mentions balance issues with dismissive shitposts won't change things anyways.
If you're so annoyed by them I'd suggest you just avoid any thread that has the name "nerf" in the title. It just happens that those are the most active threads, which is why you'll constantly see them on the front page. You're really only allowing yourself to get worked up over something you have very little control over anyways
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
I am a big fan of rogue but this don't make me less sick from Leeroy.
The entire charge mechanic should be banned to Wild, it is not a problem in any other game but HS you can't act in opponent turn making charge waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than should be.
Rush is ok.