Hearthpwn

Quote from Kaladin >>

I just want to comment on weapon removal, and specifically Ooze/similar effects.  

IMO Ooze's effect is too strong and prevents archetypes like Thief Rogue from being playable.  Hear me out.  

Lackey Rogue with Waggle Pick is strong for many reasons, some of those reasons being pure burst damage via Waggle Pick and Leeroy.  There's not much thought to it - you go face, gg.  

Because of how strong the deck is, everyone techs in weapon removal via Ooze/Harrison (and Weapons Project in Warrior).   That means you can't play Thief Rogue with Spectral Cutlass, a major point around which a lot of versions of the deck are built, and a primary way not dying to aggro/midrange.  Say what you will about "Cutlass is broken because I died once to an 8-attack lifesteal Cutlass" but a majority of the time, you're using that huge weapon for removal and survival.  Not to mention balancing weapon charges against 'other class' card generation.  

Oh but because Lackey Rogue is stupidly strong and everyone runs double Ooze, guess what - Cutlass is unplayable, which makes the deck unplayable.  

Cutlass is fine because of the skill and intricacy of plays.  

Make Ooze a glorified Bloodsail Corsair and make Waggle Pick start with 1 durability instead of 2. 

 that would

a) make good weapons overpowered. The only reason why Cutlass isn't just Kingsbane 2.0 is because of it's weakness to weapon removal. You can't just nerf all weapon removal just because you want a single deck that happens to rely on weapons to be playable (not to mention that most people don't run double weapon removal, at least not one the regular ranks)

b) it would also completely kill Waggle Pick for no reason (it needs a nerf not removal)

The entire point of cutlass is that it's infinite damage + healing, but it gets countered by weapon removal. You're basically want to remove an intended counter just because you want to win more with a meme deck. That's like saying nerf Mountain Giant because I want to play Heal Druid

Quote from YourPrivateNightmare >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

I just want to comment on weapon removal, and specifically Ooze/similar effects.  

IMO Ooze's effect is too strong and prevents archetypes like Thief Rogue from being playable.  Hear me out.  

Lackey Rogue with Waggle Pick is strong for many reasons, some of those reasons being pure burst damage via Waggle Pick and Leeroy.  There's not much thought to it - you go face, gg.  

Because of how strong the deck is, everyone techs in weapon removal via Ooze/Harrison (and Weapons Project in Warrior).   That means you can't play Thief Rogue with Spectral Cutlass, a major point around which a lot of versions of the deck are built, and a primary way not dying to aggro/midrange.  Say what you will about "Cutlass is broken because I died once to an 8-attack lifesteal Cutlass" but a majority of the time, you're using that huge weapon for removal and survival.  Not to mention balancing weapon charges against 'other class' card generation.  

Oh but because Lackey Rogue is stupidly strong and everyone runs double Ooze, guess what - Cutlass is unplayable, which makes the deck unplayable.  

Cutlass is fine because of the skill and intricacy of plays.  

Make Ooze a glorified Bloodsail Corsair and make Waggle Pick start with 1 durability instead of 2. 

 that would

a) make good weapons overpowered. The only reason why Cutlass isn't just Kingsbane 2.0 is because of it's weakness to weapon removal. You can't just nerf all weapon removal just because you want a single deck that happens to rely on weapons to be playable (not to mention that most people don't run double weapon removal, at least not one the regular ranks)

b) it would also completely kill Waggle Pick for no reason (it needs a nerf not removal)

The entire point of cutlass is that it's infinite damage + healing, but it gets countered by weapon removal. You're basically want to remove an intended counter just because you want to win more with a meme deck. That's like saying nerf Mountain Giant because I want to play Heal Druid

 Hello, bait.  

Ooze was not so polarizing as a Classic card in metas where you had relatively few and relatively straightforward weapons.  What strong weapons are you referring to that would be broken if Ooze was nerfed? 

Perhaps this was a bit of an anomaly but I queued into Giants Mage and Lackey Rogue this morning, both running double Ooze.  This was not at top 200 legend though, I guess that's what you meant by "normal ranks."  I understand if my experience at Rank 8 is completely meaningless and irrelevant.  

Waggle Pick would not be unplayable with 1 durability.  Why do you think that?

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from YourPrivateNightmare >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

I just want to comment on weapon removal, and specifically Ooze/similar effects.  

IMO Ooze's effect is too strong and prevents archetypes like Thief Rogue from being playable.  Hear me out.  

Lackey Rogue with Waggle Pick is strong for many reasons, some of those reasons being pure burst damage via Waggle Pick and Leeroy.  There's not much thought to it - you go face, gg.  

Because of how strong the deck is, everyone techs in weapon removal via Ooze/Harrison (and Weapons Project in Warrior).   That means you can't play Thief Rogue with Spectral Cutlass, a major point around which a lot of versions of the deck are built, and a primary way not dying to aggro/midrange.  Say what you will about "Cutlass is broken because I died once to an 8-attack lifesteal Cutlass" but a majority of the time, you're using that huge weapon for removal and survival.  Not to mention balancing weapon charges against 'other class' card generation.  

Oh but because Lackey Rogue is stupidly strong and everyone runs double Ooze, guess what - Cutlass is unplayable, which makes the deck unplayable.  

Cutlass is fine because of the skill and intricacy of plays.  

Make Ooze a glorified Bloodsail Corsair and make Waggle Pick start with 1 durability instead of 2. 

 that would

a) make good weapons overpowered. The only reason why Cutlass isn't just Kingsbane 2.0 is because of it's weakness to weapon removal. You can't just nerf all weapon removal just because you want a single deck that happens to rely on weapons to be playable (not to mention that most people don't run double weapon removal, at least not one the regular ranks)

b) it would also completely kill Waggle Pick for no reason (it needs a nerf not removal)

The entire point of cutlass is that it's infinite damage + healing, but it gets countered by weapon removal. You're basically want to remove an intended counter just because you want to win more with a meme deck. That's like saying nerf Mountain Giant because I want to play Heal Druid

 Hello, bait.  

Ooze was not so polarizing as a Classic card in metas where you had relatively few and relatively straightforward weapons.  What strong weapons are you referring to that would be broken if Ooze was nerfed? 

Perhaps this was a bit of an anomaly but I queued into Giants Mage and Lackey Rogue this morning, both running double Ooze.  This was not at top 200 legend though, I guess that's what you meant by "normal ranks."  I understand if my experience at Rank 8 is completely meaningless and irrelevant.  

Waggle Pick would not be unplayable with 1 durability.  Why do you think that?

 

 I'm sure everyone will love it when weapon removal is nerfed and Warrior buff their Wrench Calibers duribility with Captain Greenskin, Upgrades etc... Super fun.

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

Quote from Kaladin >>

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

 Mine does. And of course you wait with your weapon until he played Harrison. ;) On the other hand: Its not bad put onto a weapons project too. ;)

Quote from Ace100ace200 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

 Mine does. And of course you wait with your weapon until he played Harrison. ;) On the other hand: Its not bad put onto a weapons project too. ;)

 Whatever you're running that isn't part of an optimized list is irrelevant.  

Troll thread going on this long is sickening 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Ace100ace200 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

 Mine does. And of course you wait with your weapon until he played Harrison. ;) On the other hand: Its not bad put onto a weapons project too. ;)

 Whatever you're running that isn't part of an optimized list is irrelevant.  

 Not if he's winning with it.... 

Quote from endlesstides >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Ace100ace200 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

 Mine does. And of course you wait with your weapon until he played Harrison. ;) On the other hand: Its not bad put onto a weapons project too. ;)

 Whatever you're running that isn't part of an optimized list is irrelevant.  

 Not if he's winning with it.... 

 Then Togwaggle's Scheme absolutely needs to be nerfed.  I run it to counter Control Warriors.  

One person's andecdotal evidence does not mean a card is a good inclusion or something to be considered when discussing nerfs. 

Quote from scorpyon >>

Quote from user-8876443 >>

Quote from scorpyon >>

Quote from chpatro >>

 

Quote from scorpyon >>

 It's not a case of what I believe. It's what the stats show. And in terms of winrate, the stats (as I demonstrated) prove that Zoolock has a much higher overall winrate than Rogue. 
If you disagree, take it up with HSReplay and ask them if they are serious - you can let them know they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about, if you like. 

Well you are not interpreting those HSReplay statistics the right way, there are a lot of factors to take into account. For instance, if a lot of people play one deck, it is going to lower its winrate because of mirror matches. Also, to assess the true power level of a deck, you have to look at the higher level of play because a deck can be easy to play and easy to misplay against. You can't just show this page with raw stats and no filtering and just say "look I demonstrated that zoo is better", doesn't work that way.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. You can't take the stats and then decide to cherry pick the bits you want to try and justify your opinion. 
The overall winrate is the overall winrate. That covers the whole playerbase across all ranks. It would be silly to just pick a rank chunk like legend (which would be the absolute worst of them to take) and expect that that give a viable representation of the state of the meta. It would be very foolish to think that legend rank (or even to some extent ranks 5-1) gives any kind of real indication of the current meta. 

 Dude seriously you are bullshitting yourself with made up stats. Like you said your source is hsreplay and if you had yourself checked the statistics you would realize the following:

https://imgur.com/a/4MbW6dW

taken from: https://hsreplay.net/meta/

and read this too: https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-128/

You are infact doing just the thing you are advocating against. You are picking a single deck and generalizing it to represent whole archetype when the deck can have 200 games played by couple of people climbing from rank 20 to 10. 

The fact is that rogue is the strongest deck CURRENTLY(may change). Its ok to defend rogue but dont give bullshit stats to other people trying to justify your opinions. 

 

Sorry to burst your Rogue-hating little bubble, but no, you're utterly wrong.
I didn't alter the stats in anyway like you appear to be trying to do. I simply took the stats HSReplay present and ordered them by win rate. As you can see from what I showed, Zoolock has the current highest winrate of all decks, by a large margin. I'm sorry if this doesn't fit your narrow-minded littel narrative about "muh Rouge are OP!", but if that really upsets you so much, go and complain to HSReplay that their stats are wrong instead of arguing with it here. It's not like I made the stats up. 

 First of all I'm huge fan of Rogue. I just saw you using data as a weapon without any backup and I decided to defend the guy since you clearly were in the wrong. You said zoo warlock has highest winrate when actually you took a specific zoo deck and said it has the highest winrate. I already and other people tried to explain why you cant do that.

I'll try to explain to you once more:

Here is the data:

https://imgur.com/a/yt7eliX

Here is the source it is from (you can check that the data is not manipulated):

https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-128/

Here is a brief explanation how vicious syndicate works:

Our Data Reaper Project, including the Data Reaper Live has 4,800 active contributors and we thank them wholeheartedly. Contributing to the Data Reaper project through Track-o-Bot or Hearthstone Deck Tracker (recommended) allows us to perform our analyses and to issue the weekly reports. Without the community’s contribution, there would be no project. Contributing data is very easy and takes a few simple steps, after which no other action is required. If you enjoy our content and would like to make sure it remains consistent and free

They have data anlysists and data engineers who process the data. They use the same program (hearthstone deck tracker) to collect the data. Yes your zoo lock deck is also accounted to the calculations. And the conclusion is that Rogue is the strongest deck in All ranks, from 4 to 1 and in legend. Although its nothing opressive, the fact is that Rogue has been the best deck in past 3 weeks.

I can give you a little mind game to think about why you cant use one specific deck at a specific time to conclude what archetype is the strongest overall.

Think about a time frame of between 0 and 0,000001 seconds. At that time frame I happen to win a single game with deck A. No one else finishes his game at that same time frame. Thus at that timeframe deck A is the strongest deck in the metagame with a winrate of 100%.

But it doesnt work like that. You have to take longer time frame to account. Vicious syndicate does it weekly. There are moments and there might even be days where some other deck performs better than rogue but the fact is that overall in all of past 3 weeks Rogue has been the strongest.

Quote from Dunscot >>

Quote from user-8876443 >>

Also I feel like nerfing cards like preparation is out of the question since it would also cripple all the non-pirate decks (which aren't CURRENTLY dominating). You have to keep it in mind that rogue spells have all been made around preparation, thus nerfing preparation would mean that they would have to rebalance all the rogue core cards (make them more powerful).

Again, you could have said the same about Wild Growth and Innervate, only that it applies to most Druid CARDS, not just spells. The majority of the Druid cards cost 4 and more, and they are much more efficient when you can play them earlier than normal. Almost all of these cards are much worse since the nerfs, like good old Druid of the Claw. Ancient of Lore mainly got its strength from ramping, since the card draw is meant to compensate for the cards you used for mana accelleration (similar to how Ultimate Infestation incouraged you to play Nourish for ramp). Was the nerf on the card lifted after the ramping was nerfed as well? Nope, just sucks even harder now.

I agree that Rogue should not get nerfed, especially not the core set. But I have 0 faith in the Devs doing the sensible thing here.

That being said, most Rogue spells are fine as they are. Preparation is vitally important, because Rogues have no means to survive long, and it allows them to be fast and make better use of their tempo-generating cards. Still, many of the Rogue spells have fair effects for the mana cost, and other classes get overcosted and underwhelming cards as well.

I agree with you 100%. We don't want rogue get crippled like Druid did. Although they probably nerfed druid because it was pretty close to the rotation and wanted to please the community(I think the same about the nerfs as you).  So I don't think they would nerf rogue's core this early to the year and ruin their plans for next two expansions.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Ace100ace200 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

Bomb Warrior doesn't run Upgrade.

Harrison Jones exists.  We don't more "fuck you and your goddamned weapon" effects, we need more interactivity and weapon silence.  

 Mine does. And of course you wait with your weapon until he played Harrison. ;) On the other hand: Its not bad put onto a weapons project too. ;)

 Whatever you're running that isn't part of an optimized list is irrelevant.  

 So... everyone should only run the optimized list, because it's fun when everyone plays the same decks. Sure, dude.

Repeating what I said earlier

Raiding Party - will be nerfed, guarantee it.

Leeroy Jenkins - I don't want to see it nerfed but ultimately its becoming a blight on design space. At very minimum I can see it going to the HoF. At very least I can see it being nerfed to a rush with altered stats.

The honest answer is they won't for quite some time.

We've been in this cycle before, a deck takes up >30% of legend rank, is quite clearly overtuned, anyone with a basic understanding of statistics can see something needs to be changed. 

None of this matters to Blizzard, they'll wait a long time and then completely destroy several classic cards for the class rendering it terrible.

Your best bet if you don't enjoy playing it's counter (one of the most dull decks in history) is to stop playing for a while.

 

Quote from nichocolates >>

But rogue is fine you say? Let’s look at some facts.

-Rogue is by far the most played class on both ladder as well as HTC.

-Rogue is represented the most (15) at HTC.

-it has one of the highest winrates.

-Winrate >55% against 8/9 classes available.

-People are forced to play sleep warrior against it and even then a few tech cards makes it very favourable eg nomi, scheme

-it has the best tempo tools and combo is made easier and idiot proof with the introduction of 1 mana lackeys and discover a spell lackeys, doing combo’s without being good has never been easier in the whole history of hearthstone

-it has the best unconditional single target removal tool in the form of SAP

- A million bounce effect that reduces the minions cost by 2 as well making insane stuff possible

-Some classes maybe have 1viable deck, rogue has endless variations with a core of 25 cards that are amazing

 

Also I will just leave this here

https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/169/tempo-rogue#tab=matchups

Rogue is the biggest problem class there is with unfair advantage in tempo generation, card draw and value generation , yet the majority of the playerbase is willingly turning a blind eye towards it. This is not a new phenonemon as it existed during the era of deathstalker rexar as well, professional, hunter players thought rexar should be buffed to 5 mana instead of staying at 6 because the  hero power and immediate effect was not good enough.

The only reason why tempo/aggro rogue is not a tier 1 deck with over 58% winrate is because of control warrior existing and yet the majority of the  people are targeting the wrong class... is there a conspiracy going on here? 

I have to emphasize the point above, because it seems most rogue lovers here don’t get the big picture and just jump in to cry about people crying for nerfs. Classes like token druid , khadgar mage, mech hunter , big shaman , control warrior all have several unfavorable matchups from DIFFERENT decks from DIFFERENT classes. Rogue on the other hand has a favorable matchup over >55% against every single class and deck type EXCEPT the three variants of CONTROL warrior. We are forced to queue into all these sleep elysiana warriors all because of rogue being OP. Get it? If you still don’t think that’s a problem, you are obviously biased to the point you don’t need to waste time here.

Rogue is fun, you say? As you all know fun is subjective, just because you think rogue is fun doesn’t mean that everyone think it’s fun and make it any less deserving on a nerf based on data. Just like a diehard group of people who think priests are fun, or sleep warrior are fun doesn’t make it any less a candidate. But all the data right now points towards rogue being oppressive and needing a merf.

Anyway let’s talk about the busted rogue class which is represented the most in the upcoming hct as a nobrainer inclusion because it’s busted according to all the pro players.

Let’s see a list of possible rogue nerfs to test the waters include:

Preparation> change it to 1 mana.

Backstab > zap has 1 mana overload so change it to 1 mana or deal 1 damage

Raiding party > change it to 4 mana.

Sap> it’s a better execute, polymorph, shield slam without conditions, change to 4 mana.

Extra passive to hero power> Rogue always goes first, so they never get the coin.

SI agent > change it to 4 mana

Myra’s unstable element> let’s make it 7 mana, why not?

Evil miscreant > change it to 4 mana.

EdWin van cleef> make it 4 mana.

4 mana taunt pirate> change it to 5 mana

What else am I missing? 

 

 

 So... If you think different you’re wrong.

Right?

Quote from scorpyon >>

Quote from chpatro >>

 

Quote from scorpyon >>

 It's not a case of what I believe. It's what the stats show. And in terms of winrate, the stats (as I demonstrated) prove that Zoolock has a much higher overall winrate than Rogue. 
If you disagree, take it up with HSReplay and ask them if they are serious - you can let them know they are wrong and don't know what they're talking about, if you like. 

Well you are not interpreting those HSReplay statistics the right way, there are a lot of factors to take into account. For instance, if a lot of people play one deck, it is going to lower its winrate because of mirror matches. Also, to assess the true power level of a deck, you have to look at the higher level of play because a deck can be easy to play and easy to misplay against. You can't just show this page with raw stats and no filtering and just say "look I demonstrated that zoo is better", doesn't work that way.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. You can't take the stats and then decide to cherry pick the bits you want to try and justify your opinion. 
The overall winrate is the overall winrate. That covers the whole playerbase across all ranks. It would be silly to just pick a rank chunk like legend (which would be the absolute worst of them to take) and expect that that give a viable representation of the state of the meta. It would be very foolish to think that legend rank (or even to some extent ranks 5-1) gives any kind of real indication of the current meta. 

Wait what?

If you look at the stats and see that Warrior is the only class with a positive WR against Tempo Rogue, reason being the winrate as an overall is average is due to the mass amounts of Warriors on ladder playing to counter Rogues.

The fact that it has the edge on every class but one (8/9) isn't healthy at all and you can tell in the deck building and play rate of some of the classes that this is a direct result of this, easy fix is to HoF Leeroy and nerf Wagglepick to a 4 mana 3/3 which doesn't hurt the deck too hard but stops the ridiculous burst damage this class can put out.

I was a huge Shadowblade Myracle player last expansion and it was strong, but now it's just ridiculous i try not to play it because it will inevitably get nerfed and it's toxic as fuck.

I think 2 nerfs would be fine to start and let's see what happens. Raiding Party should cost 4. EVIL Miscreant should be 1/3.