- Classic set too good (prep, backstab, SI:7, Edwin, ETC) thats basically used in every rogues deck there is every expansion
- Too many value generator whilst maintaining tempo (blink fox, hench clan thug, evil miscreant, ETC)
- Too many cheap card that have insane effects (backstab, vendetta, prep, deadly poison, etc) especially with lackeys nowaday
- EDWIN FUCKING VAN CLEEF
but is rogue really problematic right now? yes and no for me, rogue right now is in the same place as hunter and druid (just look at those two matchups winrate and its basically the same as rogue) IF rogue gets nerfed again, probably people just switch into bomb hunter or token druid and people will scream to nerf those two too.
But still it doesnt justify that rogue is not OP as hell right now. For me if blizzard want to nerf rogue it will be just nerfing vendetta to (1) mana instead of (0) or nerfing miscreant to 1/4. just a small change but would make rogue matchup more interactive at least.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
Muck Shaman does reall well against Rogue, from my own experience. In fact, I can't remember the last time I lost to Rogue using the version I run. Of course it tends to suffer against heavy aggro zoo decks etc.
I won't say really well, but yes it does better than most other non warrior decks.
played rogue on first day. Warriors with weapon removal, mages with double oozes and harrisson, hunters with oozes, ROGUES with oozes, shaman with Oozes...if you dont think weapon removal doesnt need nerfs, go try and play rogue yourself. ROgue does not need any nerfs
Even with all that tech, only Warrior has positive wr against Rogue. You are just giving more reasons for nerfing Rogue.
Muck Shaman does reall well against Rogue, from my own experience. In fact, I can't remember the last time I lost to Rogue using the version I run. Of course it tends to suffer against heavy aggro zoo decks etc.
And that's what they mean by "warping the meta" -- yes, some decks CAN tech to beat it, but then you suffer against the rest of the field. But since so many people are playing OP Rogue, you might go ahead and do it anyway.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
And that's what they mean by "warping the meta" -- yes, some decks CAN tech to beat it, but then you suffer against the rest of the field. But since so many people are playing OP Rogue, you might go ahead and do it anyway.
Yes. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand. Simply because of Lackey Rogue, there is probably more weapon destruction seeing play now than there was when every class had legendary weapons.
If they nerf classic rogue cards, the class will be useless and eliminated from the game.. Rogue is fine as it is, maybe EVIL miscreant and raiding party need some nerfs, but thats it. If they nerf prep or Edwin, there is no point to play rogue anymore, honestly.
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
Agreed.
Also, balancing the basic/classic set (assuming that it will be evergreen) is in line with Hearthstone's evolving design philosophies.
We don't have the broken 1 and 2 drops that we used to have. Or the broken charge minions. But somehow, Rogue should be able to keep its overpowered suite of tempo cards that were designed to compete in a world of broken 1 and 2 drops?
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
Because that’s not what is happening. Classic cards are fine UNTIL new cards are released and now they’re an issue.
And I doubt many people today are playing this game 10 years from now.
What world are you living in ? classic cards were never fine, they are the biggest reason for the imbalance in this game. Why does classes like Priest are trash for majority of the rotation and classes like Rogue and Druid always had a T1/T2 deck ? it's because of the classic set. There's even a meme that whoever makes the biggest Edwin in World Championship wins it, just shows how much influence classic cards (and Edwin in particular) have on the game.
Majority believe classic set is broken, only debate is whether to completely remove it or nerf it. Blizzard likes the latter, which I personally don't agree with.
And yes many people won't be playing this game if they never touch classic cards.
They should just rework classic set, its the m,ain reason classes have to stick to certain archtypes. While tempo rogue is strong in most rotations its basically the only thing the class can do whatsoever.
At this point its pretty much a nerfcrep of classic set, Wild Growth,FWA,iceblock.
Instead of cutting a card out every now and then they should just rotate out classic set. But the core problem with that is that some classes wont have any playable curve so they would need to introduce like a 4th set into rotation which would push out a lot of f2p players out of the game if currency would stay the same.
If i would touch a card for rogue however i would nerf prep to 2 mana down from 3.
Watch Regiskillbin's Video called “Rogue is a problem”, this will say all rogue needs to have nerfed. But also raiding party should go to 4 mana. 1 to stop the curve being insane, but two so that in wild Odd Rogue doesnt have a good earlier game draw.
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
Because that’s not what is happening. Classic cards are fine UNTIL new cards are released and now they’re an issue.
And I doubt many people today are playing this game 10 years from now.
You're missing my point. I'm saying that if strong classic cards stay strong forever then it hurts variety in the meta. Look at the nerfs to Druid last year. Wild growth and nourish were core cards and got nerfed because they were auto-includes in most Druid decks. Druids were using the classic ramp cards instead of exploring new options like Biology Project or Floop's Glorious Gloop. I like playing Druid, but what's the point if the decklists stay 80% the same from one expansion to the next? That's not fun anymore.
Rogue has the same problem right now. Their strong classic/basic cards are preventing them from becoming something new. As an example, wouldn't you like to see what crazy high cost spells Blizzard can think of without Preparation being so strong? Backstab, Edwin, Preparation and Sap have been in every winning world championship line up of the last 5 years. Rogue has never been bad or even mediocre. It's time for Rogue to evolve, to change.
Furthermore, I really don't understand where you are coming from with your last point. The whole point of card games is that if they are successful and get new content regularly, then they will build a loyal community and last a long time. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh have had active communities for over 15 years and MTG has gone for even longer with no sign of slowing down. Those games regularly ban, limit or rotate cards in order to keep the meta fresh. A fresh meta is what keeps people coming back to the game.
I'll hazard a guess that if you spend time on this forum its because Hearthstone is one of your favorite games, right? If that's the case then you should want what is best for the player base at large so that you can continue to enjoy the game. I haven't agreed with all of Blizzard's nerfs, as a Shaman fan the nerfs to iconic cards like Flametongue Totem and Hex felt weird to me. But, change is healthy for the game and the community. I would hope that if I took a break from HS and came back years later that the game would be like a new experience, with new cards, decks and strategies to explore.
Nerf Evil Miscreant make him a 4 Mana cost minion or lower his fcking health so they can’t bounce it back at least , I always fcking hate it if I play against a rogue and they are 2nd , the coin often decides the game for their favor and it’s stupid.Preparation should also get nerfed Reduction by 3 is too much.Raiding Party should just draw you 1 Pirate instead of 2 or the mana cost should go up to 4.I don’t think Edwin should get nerfed since he is a class favorite just nerf all the cheap costing cards and i‘m fine with that
STOP whining about Edwin VanCleef. He's fine. He requires the player to spend a TON of resources to make him huge, and then if he's handled (hex, polymorph, execute, or ANY silence of any kind, sap ... or something I'm nothing thinking of), the rogue basically loses because they invested most of their hand into making him.
Part of the reason why druid and other classes were able to explore outside their comfort zone was because they had other options they could fall back on. Rogue isn't good at surviving long game which shuts down many possible avenues for their decklists to go
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
Because that’s not what is happening. Classic cards are fine UNTIL new cards are released and now they’re an issue.
And I doubt many people today are playing this game 10 years from now.
What world are you living in ? classic cards were never fine, they are the biggest reason for the imbalance in this game. Why does classes like Priest are trash for majority of the rotation and classes like Rogue and Druid always had a T1/T2 deck ? it's because of the classic set. There's even a meme that whoever makes the biggest Edwin in World Championship wins it, just shows how much influence classic cards (and Edwin in particular) have on the game.
Majority believe classic set is broken, only debate is whether to completely remove it or nerf it. Blizzard likes the latter, which I personally don't agree with.
And yes many people won't be playing this game if they never touch classic cards.
and still none of them take any counters to it? if something is as prevalent and omnipotent, then surely bringing a counter to it would be obvious.
at times I think these "pro's" made it on attrition alone. :D
problem is, they make edwin so huge without spending a real card (lackeys), and discounted cards (vendetta, prep, bounced back something from waggle pick, 0 mana dread corsairs) while still removing enemy threats. yeah edwin is fine but prep, vendetta for (0), miscreant, waggle pick is not fine
I believe the meta is becoming less friendly to control warrior as well. If that's the case there will be less holding back Rogue.
For instance, my last 5 opponents were mech hunter (unfavored), Big Mage (unfavored), deathrattle pally (unfavored), deathrattle pally (unfavored), and miracle priest (almost autoloss). It's a tough go for control warrior out there right now.
Problem with rogues right now is:
- Classic set too good (prep, backstab, SI:7, Edwin, ETC) thats basically used in every rogues deck there is every expansion
- Too many value generator whilst maintaining tempo (blink fox, hench clan thug, evil miscreant, ETC)
- Too many cheap card that have insane effects (backstab, vendetta, prep, deadly poison, etc) especially with lackeys nowaday
- EDWIN FUCKING VAN CLEEF
but is rogue really problematic right now? yes and no
for me, rogue right now is in the same place as hunter and druid (just look at those two matchups winrate and its basically the same as rogue)
IF rogue gets nerfed again, probably people just switch into bomb hunter or token druid and people will scream to nerf those two too.
But still it doesnt justify that rogue is not OP as hell right now. For me if blizzard want to nerf rogue it will be just nerfing vendetta to (1) mana instead of (0) or nerfing miscreant to 1/4. just a small change but would make rogue matchup more interactive at least.
and please just HoF prep next expansion.
I won't say really well, but yes it does better than most other non warrior decks.
And that's what they mean by "warping the meta" -- yes, some decks CAN tech to beat it, but then you suffer against the rest of the field. But since so many people are playing OP Rogue, you might go ahead and do it anyway.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Yes. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand.
Simply because of Lackey Rogue, there is probably more weapon destruction seeing play now than there was when every class had legendary weapons.
If they nerf classic rogue cards, the class will be useless and eliminated from the game.. Rogue is fine as it is, maybe EVIL miscreant and raiding party need some nerfs, but thats it. If they nerf prep or Edwin, there is no point to play rogue anymore, honestly.
Keleseth rogue pretty was actually better off withiout evises
I don't get why so many people are defending the classic set like it should never be adjusted. Why would anyone want to play Hearthstone 5-10 years from now with the same cards. Because that's what you're asking for. The basic and classic set should be rebalanced so that when expansions come out we play with more of the new cards. That's better for variety.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Agreed.
Also, balancing the basic/classic set (assuming that it will be evergreen) is in line with Hearthstone's evolving design philosophies.
We don't have the broken 1 and 2 drops that we used to have. Or the broken charge minions. But somehow, Rogue should be able to keep its overpowered suite of tempo cards that were designed to compete in a world of broken 1 and 2 drops?
What world are you living in ? classic cards were never fine, they are the biggest reason for the imbalance in this game. Why does classes like Priest are trash for majority of the rotation and classes like Rogue and Druid always had a T1/T2 deck ? it's because of the classic set. There's even a meme that whoever makes the biggest Edwin in World Championship wins it, just shows how much influence classic cards (and Edwin in particular) have on the game.
Majority believe classic set is broken, only debate is whether to completely remove it or nerf it. Blizzard likes the latter, which I personally don't agree with.
And yes many people won't be playing this game if they never touch classic cards.
They should just rework classic set, its the m,ain reason classes have to stick to certain archtypes. While tempo rogue is strong in most rotations its basically the only thing the class can do whatsoever.
At this point its pretty much a nerfcrep of classic set, Wild Growth,FWA,iceblock.
Instead of cutting a card out every now and then they should just rotate out classic set. But the core problem with that is that some classes wont have any playable curve so they would need to introduce like a 4th set into rotation which would push out a lot of f2p players out of the game if currency would stay the same.
If i would touch a card for rogue however i would nerf prep to 2 mana down from 3.
Watch Regiskillbin's Video called “Rogue is a problem”, this will say all rogue needs to have nerfed. But also raiding party should go to 4 mana. 1 to stop the curve being insane, but two so that in wild Odd Rogue doesnt have a good earlier game draw.
You're missing my point. I'm saying that if strong classic cards stay strong forever then it hurts variety in the meta. Look at the nerfs to Druid last year. Wild growth and nourish were core cards and got nerfed because they were auto-includes in most Druid decks. Druids were using the classic ramp cards instead of exploring new options like Biology Project or Floop's Glorious Gloop. I like playing Druid, but what's the point if the decklists stay 80% the same from one expansion to the next? That's not fun anymore.
Rogue has the same problem right now. Their strong classic/basic cards are preventing them from becoming something new. As an example, wouldn't you like to see what crazy high cost spells Blizzard can think of without Preparation being so strong? Backstab, Edwin, Preparation and Sap have been in every winning world championship line up of the last 5 years. Rogue has never been bad or even mediocre. It's time for Rogue to evolve, to change.
Furthermore, I really don't understand where you are coming from with your last point. The whole point of card games is that if they are successful and get new content regularly, then they will build a loyal community and last a long time. Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh have had active communities for over 15 years and MTG has gone for even longer with no sign of slowing down. Those games regularly ban, limit or rotate cards in order to keep the meta fresh. A fresh meta is what keeps people coming back to the game.
I'll hazard a guess that if you spend time on this forum its because Hearthstone is one of your favorite games, right? If that's the case then you should want what is best for the player base at large so that you can continue to enjoy the game. I haven't agreed with all of Blizzard's nerfs, as a Shaman fan the nerfs to iconic cards like Flametongue Totem and Hex felt weird to me. But, change is healthy for the game and the community. I would hope that if I took a break from HS and came back years later that the game would be like a new experience, with new cards, decks and strategies to explore.
Check out my fun and innovative decks here:
Beat your opponent to a pulp with Revenant Warrior or outlast them with Demon Reno Warlock.
Nerf Evil Miscreant make him a 4 Mana cost minion or lower his fcking health so they can’t bounce it back at least , I always fcking hate it if I play against a rogue and they are 2nd , the coin often decides the game for their favor and it’s stupid.Preparation should also get nerfed Reduction by 3 is too much.Raiding Party should just draw you 1 Pirate instead of 2 or the mana cost should go up to 4.I don’t think Edwin should get nerfed since he is a class favorite just nerf all the cheap costing cards and i‘m fine with that
3 mana 3/3 that buff +1/+1 after hero atacks
It should be 4 mana or 3 mana 2/2
STOP whining about Edwin VanCleef. He's fine. He requires the player to spend a TON of resources to make him huge, and then if he's handled (hex, polymorph, execute, or ANY silence of any kind, sap ... or something I'm nothing thinking of), the rogue basically loses because they invested most of their hand into making him.
Part of the reason why druid and other classes were able to explore outside their comfort zone was because they had other options they could fall back on. Rogue isn't good at surviving long game which shuts down many possible avenues for their decklists to go
and still none of them take any counters to it? if something is as prevalent and omnipotent, then surely bringing a counter to it would be obvious.
at times I think these "pro's" made it on attrition alone. :D
So I guess rogue is the new odd paladin before level up was nerfed.
problem is, they make edwin so huge without spending a real card (lackeys), and discounted cards (vendetta, prep, bounced back something from waggle pick, 0 mana dread corsairs) while still removing enemy threats. yeah edwin is fine but prep, vendetta for (0), miscreant, waggle pick is not fine
I believe the meta is becoming less friendly to control warrior as well. If that's the case there will be less holding back Rogue.
For instance, my last 5 opponents were mech hunter (unfavored), Big Mage (unfavored), deathrattle pally (unfavored), deathrattle pally (unfavored), and miracle priest (almost autoloss). It's a tough go for control warrior out there right now.
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