You could ban her in tournaments as tournament organizers. I mean, isn't that a more elegant and simple solution than utterly changing a card that was designed to be a counter to an already strong deck in the format?
I understand the long games and tournament issues, but that sounds like a tournament organizer problem, not Blizzard's.
Suggesting that there's some meaningful difference between Blizzard and the TO's who are running Blizzard's tournaments is silly,
So the solution remains the same. Blizzard then declares that all official tournaments have Elysianna banned from being in your deck. I will even come up with a press release...
"Due to the long games that Elysianna produces, it becomes impossible to run tournaments in a timely and efficient manner. Instead of nerfing or changing the card, she is instead NOT allowed to be put into any decks.
However, if she is produced due to random or Discover effects, she is still allowed to be played in the normal manner. Her card is simply not allowed to start in any player's decks."
Is that unreasonable to make specific tournament bannings rather than change a card for ALL players?
"We don't want tournaments to run super long, so we're nerfing a card played by a lot of non tournment players."
See how that's an unreasonable solution?
So what you're saying is we should never nerf a card that is problematic for competitive players just because other players (not even the majority of players) don't want any change whatsoever? It's not like making her 10 mana will make her any less fun
Aren't you the unreasonable one?
I'll let you fill in the blanks. Write whatever you want.
When you're ready to address what I actually said, let me know! I'm happy to discuss.
You'll have to make a bigger effort to explain then, because as I understand it : it's exactly what you meant.
1- You called nerfing Elysiana a punishment for non competitive players:
Why ? How is it a punishment? How is it any different than nerfing, let's say, Yogg Saron?
2 You said that "We don't want tournaments to run super long, so we're nerfing a card played by a lot of non tournment players." was an unreasonable solution :
Why ? How? Again How is it any different than nerfing Yogg Saron ?
"We don't want tournaments to run super long, so we're nerfing a card played by a lot of non tournment players."
See how that's an unreasonable solution?
So what you're saying is we should never nerf a card that is problematic for competitive players just because other players (not even the majority of players) don't want any change whatsoever? It's not like making her 10 mana will make her any less fun
Aren't you the unreasonable one?
I'll let you fill in the blanks. Write whatever you want.
When you're ready to address what I actually said, let me know! I'm happy to discuss.
You'll have to make a bigger effort to explain then, because as I understand it : it's exactly what you meant.
1- You called nerfing Elysiana a punishment for non competitive players:
Why ? How is it a punishment? How is it any different than nerfing, let's say, Yogg Saron?
2 You said that "We don't want tournaments to run super long, so we're nerfing a card played by a lot of non tournment players." was an unreasonable solution :
Why ? How? Again How is it any different than nerfing Yogg Saron ?
I don't play tournaments. Why should a card I regularly play and that isn't actually problematic be nerfed? Simply because tournaments need to be completed in a timely matter?
Yogg should have never been nerfed. They'd simply need to create a tournament ban list well in advance (so you could actually make decks without those cards and have experience playing them going into a tournament).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
well, Barnes isn't even the biggest problem in big preist now....
it's eternal servitude, if they nerf barnes nothing but the high roll changes many games are won without even seeing a barnes until late...if they nerf servitude they actually weaken the deck.
well, Barnes isn't even the biggest problem in big preist now....
it's eternal servitude, if they nerf barnes nothing but the high roll changes many games are won without even seeing a barnes until late...if they nerf servitude they actually weaken the deck.
Kinda, yeah, but remember they also have Resurrect, which costs (2) and can ress a friendly minion died this game. They'll get rid of Eternal Servitude just to add 2x big thicc cocky minion and do their stuff as always. The real problem is the minion that Barnes summons if you analyze better the whole context.
It's like the "you shouldn't fix the bully, you should go to its root and fix the bully machine" I really don't know how to explain it, I'm Italian, forgive me... I meant, bullies are educated by their parents. The problem isn't the bully but his parents. The problem isn't Eternal Servitude, which resurrect a minion summoned by Barnes, it's Barnes that summons stuff!
To me, the most offending combo of the meta is Preparation > Raiding Party > Waggle Pick > Dread Corsair (sometimes two). The amount of value there for 4 mana is just insane, and usually means game over on turn 3 or 4 for a two card combo.
Waggle Pick is the biggest offender, especially when compared to Truesilver Champion. Stats are identical, but one gives one of the best Rogue cards, played in nearly ever rogue deck since forever as a deathrattle, the other gives a tiny amount of heal that would not even be printable on a 0 mana card.
I think waggle pick should be bumped to 5/6 manna, or lower durability to 1, or get rid of the 2 mana cost reduction for the bounce.
What's wrong with Elysiana? So tournament games run long, big deal.
Cards shouldn't be nerfed for the sake of tournament health; they need to just ban certain cards from tournament decklists. Yogg should have never been nerfed.
Underbelly angler - adds Murloc raiders instead of random ones.
Omega devastator - no mech tag.
Barnes - summon a 1/1 copy of a minion in your opponent's deck.
Savage roar - 5 mana.
Conjurer's calling - 5 mana, no twinspell.
So you are killing off most of them. Whats the point? None are too strong expept for maybe Prep and Barnes. Savage Roar is the only tool Druid has at the moment to stay competitive. The same goes for warrior. They would be beaten almost everytime without a way to answer a board at turn 5 with brawl. Its also their class identity.
Elesiyana is a really dumb card, there's nothing good to say about that card since it doesn't really promotes anything skillful you might think that adding 5 discover options makes the card a "skill card" but how it's used it doesn't matter WHAT you add really it just matters it prolongs games unnecessarily.
Control matchups are even more obnoxious than they were with DKs since they still have DKs.. making the only 2 real control classes Shaman and warrior with a rare priest which is only relevant cause it can copy elesyana 3 times with a decent-ish(Seance) card it runs probably anyway.
Control warlock is just inferior to shaman, and handlock is inferior to hand mage which isn't really a control deck.. so in the control decks departments we have warrior and shaman which without elesyana have less time to abuse their hero cards + not fatiguing.
Nerfing the card to 10 mana is NO GOOD... why? because shaman then can reuse it with shudderwock anyway and it keeps doing what it does.. it should be changed altogether to add the cards to your hand or to add much much fewer cards (around 4 or 3) and even then a deck playing them 3 times...
She overcentralizes the control metagame all being about that cards and that card alone. I would like control decks to have a real win condition or if they want to reach fatigue, then they have to be careful about how much they draw, look for adding single digit number of cards to the deck to avoid the fatigue counter and caring about which removal they have or not wasted.
What's wrong with Elysiana? So tournament games run long, big deal.
Cards shouldn't be nerfed for the sake of tournament health; they need to just ban certain cards from tournament decklists. Yogg should have never been nerfed.
Completely agree.
Banned them from Ranked too then, and i'll agree
Because, I certainly don't want to be forced to play a card just because other players want to keep playing her, and I certainly don't want to face that rng fest yogg in ranked ever again even in wild.
What's wrong with Elysiana? So tournament games run long, big deal.
Cards shouldn't be nerfed for the sake of tournament health; they need to just ban certain cards from tournament decklists. Yogg should have never been nerfed.
Completely agree.
Banned them from Ranked too then, and i'll agree
Because, I certainly don't want to be forced to play a card just because other players want to keep playing her, and I certainly don't want to face that rng fest yogg in ranked ever again even in wild.
This reads like, "I don't want to adapt to the meta, but I expect the nerfs to cater to me instead."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.
Underbelly angler - adds Murloc raiders instead of random ones.
Omega devastator - no mech tag.
Barnes - summon a 1/1 copy of a minion in your opponent's deck.
Savage roar - 5 mana.
Conjurer's calling - 5 mana, no twinspell.
So you are killing off most of them. Whats the point? None are too strong expept for maybe Prep and Barnes. Savage Roar is the only tool Druid has at the moment to stay competitive. The same goes for warrior. They would be beaten almost everytime without a way to answer a board at turn 5 with brawl. Its also their class identity.
Brawl should cost more than 5. Same effect as Twisting Nether does, except 1 minion survives that can be a warrior one, but costs 3 mana less.
well, Barnes isn't even the biggest problem in big preist now....
it's eternal servitude, if they nerf barnes nothing but the high roll changes many games are won without even seeing a barnes until late...if they nerf servitude they actually weaken the deck.
Kinda, yeah, but remember they also have Resurrect, which costs (2) and can ress a friendly minion died this game. They'll get rid of Eternal Servitude just to add 2x big thicc cocky minion and do their stuff as always. The real problem is the minion that Barnes summons if you analyze better the whole context.
It's like the "you shouldn't fix the bully, you should go to its root and fix the bully machine" I really don't know how to explain it, I'm Italian, forgive me... I meant, bullies are educated by their parents. The problem isn't the bully but his parents. The problem isn't Eternal Servitude, which resurrect a minion summoned by Barnes, it's Barnes that summons stuff!
it's different because there are many ways to mess with Resurrect pool, like transform effects or things that summon stuff in your opponent's board, also before eternal servitude was something, resurrect priest was a tier 9 deck (not kidding) centered around Injured Blademaster and Barnes [/card]so there's plenty of proof that they don't carry the archetype, plus following your logic barnes, can just be replaced with vargoth, however on the other hand, if you transform your opponent's minions ES can still discover one of their big guys that died, there's no point on using hex or poly against big priest if they can discover something that's not the frog or sheep, with [card]resurrect they run the risks of resing sheeps,frogs, boars, whatever you managed to put in their side of the board, so if they nerf servitude to not includ friendly minions but any minion that died that game, they effectively weaken that deck and make tech against it actually effective, as opposed if they nerf barnes and the deck functions like it always functioned, ignoring tech because Eternal Servitude lets them ignore tech, because as i stated, many games are won without even seeing a barnes.
Wait.... people are actually complaining about Elysiana now...? o.O Wow...
The only reason why I complain about Elysiana is that it turns control mirrors into RNG fiestas. If you can pull out the Elysiana with a Hecklebot, chances are you've won because both warrior and shaman have enough healing/armor gain to take things to fatigue regularly. If you cannot pull out Elysiana with Hecklebots, it becomes a match of who is greedier by running a Youthful Brewmaster or Baleful Banker. Whoever is greedier is going to win pretty much all the time unless they filled their new deck with trash and the other person got incredibly good discover. If both players are greedy and have a way to get Elysiana back, then the game just hits the turn timer and ends in a tie. I feel like this card is in the same boat as Yogg Saron is in. Both cards trivialize the rest of the game as it comes down to playing one card and just make the game feel boring if you cannot counter the card.
Don't get me wrong, I like the card a lot and it's one of the reasons why I like control a lot this expansion because it makes fatigue much more of an actual game plan instead of just gaining tons of armor and waiting in fatigue. However, when a decent chunk of control mirrors end with both players in a tie, it just isn't satisfying, especially when the game takes 15-20 minutes.
There is also the whole "tournament scheduling is fucked because each game takes 30-40 minutes" thing, but I do not feel like that is a good argument for nerfing a card.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I don't have something witty about this deck, I just like it because Malygos is fun.
Nerfs I would like to see:
Brawl - 7 mana.
Shield slam - 2 mana.
Preparation - 1 mana.
Elysiana - 10 mana.
Waggle pick - 3 attack.
Underbelly angler - adds Murloc raiders instead of random ones.
Omega devastator - no mech tag.
Barnes - summon a 1/1 copy of a minion in your opponent's deck.
Savage roar - 5 mana.
Conjurer's calling - 5 mana, no twinspell.
I didn't even craft Archivist Elysiana in the end, but it'd be sad to see her nerfed.
The idea of discovering and shuffling a secondary "archive" in your deck was cool.
So the solution remains the same. Blizzard then declares that all official tournaments have Elysianna banned from being in your deck. I will even come up with a press release...
"Due to the long games that Elysianna produces, it becomes impossible to run tournaments in a timely and efficient manner. Instead of nerfing or changing the card, she is instead NOT allowed to be put into any decks.
However, if she is produced due to random or Discover effects, she is still allowed to be played in the normal manner. Her card is simply not allowed to start in any player's decks."
Is that unreasonable to make specific tournament bannings rather than change a card for ALL players?
You'll have to make a bigger effort to explain then, because as I understand it : it's exactly what you meant.
1- You called nerfing Elysiana a punishment for non competitive players:
Why ? How is it a punishment? How is it any different than nerfing, let's say, Yogg Saron?
2 You said that "We don't want tournaments to run super long, so we're nerfing a card played by a lot of non tournment players." was an unreasonable solution :
Why ? How? Again How is it any different than nerfing Yogg Saron ?
Make Elysiana 10 mana and we're there. Everyone would be happy.
Other than that standard is doing alright.
As for wild. Barnes should just get a 1/1 copy of a 5 mana and less copy.
Occasionally gives helpful advice.
Wait.... people are actually complaining about Elysiana now...? o.O
Wow...
I don't play tournaments. Why should a card I regularly play and that isn't actually problematic be nerfed? Simply because tournaments need to be completed in a timely matter?
Yogg should have never been nerfed. They'd simply need to create a tournament ban list well in advance (so you could actually make decks without those cards and have experience playing them going into a tournament).
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
yeah it's like "take a room and talk about it elsewhere".. she's been monitored, not ****ing destroyed :D
it's eternal servitude, if they nerf barnes nothing but the high roll changes many games are won without even seeing a barnes until late...if they nerf servitude they actually weaken the deck.
Kinda, yeah, but remember they also have Resurrect, which costs (2) and can ress a friendly minion died this game. They'll get rid of Eternal Servitude just to add 2x big thicc cocky minion and do their stuff as always. The real problem is the minion that Barnes summons if you analyze better the whole context.
It's like the "you shouldn't fix the bully, you should go to its root and fix the bully machine" I really don't know how to explain it, I'm Italian, forgive me... I meant, bullies are educated by their parents. The problem isn't the bully but his parents. The problem isn't Eternal Servitude, which resurrect a minion summoned by Barnes, it's Barnes that summons stuff!
To me, the most offending combo of the meta is Preparation > Raiding Party > Waggle Pick > Dread Corsair (sometimes two). The amount of value there for 4 mana is just insane, and usually means game over on turn 3 or 4 for a two card combo.
Waggle Pick is the biggest offender, especially when compared to Truesilver Champion. Stats are identical, but one gives one of the best Rogue cards, played in nearly ever rogue deck since forever as a deathrattle, the other gives a tiny amount of heal that would not even be printable on a 0 mana card.
I think waggle pick should be bumped to 5/6 manna, or lower durability to 1, or get rid of the 2 mana cost reduction for the bounce.
Completely agree.
Always expect the unexpectable!
So you are killing off most of them. Whats the point? None are too strong expept for maybe Prep and Barnes. Savage Roar is the only tool Druid has at the moment to stay competitive. The same goes for warrior. They would be beaten almost everytime without a way to answer a board at turn 5 with brawl. Its also their class identity.
Always expect the unexpectable!
Elesiyana is a really dumb card, there's nothing good to say about that card since it doesn't really promotes anything skillful you might think that adding 5 discover options makes the card a "skill card" but how it's used it doesn't matter WHAT you add really it just matters it prolongs games unnecessarily.
Control matchups are even more obnoxious than they were with DKs since they still have DKs.. making the only 2 real control classes Shaman and warrior with a rare priest which is only relevant cause it can copy elesyana 3 times with a decent-ish(Seance) card it runs probably anyway.
Control warlock is just inferior to shaman, and handlock is inferior to hand mage which isn't really a control deck.. so in the control decks departments we have warrior and shaman which without elesyana have less time to abuse their hero cards + not fatiguing.
Nerfing the card to 10 mana is NO GOOD... why? because shaman then can reuse it with shudderwock anyway and it keeps doing what it does.. it should be changed altogether to add the cards to your hand or to add much much fewer cards (around 4 or 3) and even then a deck playing them 3 times...
She overcentralizes the control metagame all being about that cards and that card alone. I would like control decks to have a real win condition or if they want to reach fatigue, then they have to be careful about how much they draw, look for adding single digit number of cards to the deck to avoid the fatigue counter and caring about which removal they have or not wasted.
Banned them from Ranked too then, and i'll agree
Because, I certainly don't want to be forced to play a card just because other players want to keep playing her, and I certainly don't want to face that rng fest yogg in ranked ever again even in wild.
This reads like, "I don't want to adapt to the meta, but I expect the nerfs to cater to me instead."
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
Brawl should cost more than 5. Same effect as Twisting Nether does, except 1 minion survives that can be a warrior one, but costs 3 mana less.
Unbelievable why y'all retards would want to nerf cards that are lategame while the problem is and will always be aggro.
it's different because there are many ways to mess with Resurrect pool, like transform effects or things that summon stuff in your opponent's board, also before eternal servitude was something, resurrect priest was a tier 9 deck (not kidding) centered around Injured Blademaster and Barnes [/card]so there's plenty of proof that they don't carry the archetype, plus following your logic barnes, can just be replaced with vargoth, however on the other hand, if you transform your opponent's minions ES can still discover one of their big guys that died, there's no point on using hex or poly against big priest if they can discover something that's not the frog or sheep, with [card]resurrect they run the risks of resing sheeps,frogs, boars, whatever you managed to put in their side of the board, so if they nerf servitude to not includ friendly minions but any minion that died that game, they effectively weaken that deck and make tech against it actually effective, as opposed if they nerf barnes and the deck functions like it always functioned, ignoring tech because Eternal Servitude lets them ignore tech, because as i stated, many games are won without even seeing a barnes.
The only reason why I complain about Elysiana is that it turns control mirrors into RNG fiestas. If you can pull out the Elysiana with a Hecklebot, chances are you've won because both warrior and shaman have enough healing/armor gain to take things to fatigue regularly. If you cannot pull out Elysiana with Hecklebots, it becomes a match of who is greedier by running a Youthful Brewmaster or Baleful Banker. Whoever is greedier is going to win pretty much all the time unless they filled their new deck with trash and the other person got incredibly good discover. If both players are greedy and have a way to get Elysiana back, then the game just hits the turn timer and ends in a tie. I feel like this card is in the same boat as Yogg Saron is in. Both cards trivialize the rest of the game as it comes down to playing one card and just make the game feel boring if you cannot counter the card.
Don't get me wrong, I like the card a lot and it's one of the reasons why I like control a lot this expansion because it makes fatigue much more of an actual game plan instead of just gaining tons of armor and waiting in fatigue. However, when a decent chunk of control mirrors end with both players in a tie, it just isn't satisfying, especially when the game takes 15-20 minutes.
There is also the whole "tournament scheduling is fucked because each game takes 30-40 minutes" thing, but I do not feel like that is a good argument for nerfing a card.
I don't have something witty about this deck, I just like it because Malygos is fun.