Hearthpwn

Quote from mostdeadlygeist >>

My guess is they'll eventually HOF Savage Roar since it has been a problem for years. Anyone want to relive the charging treant days?

 I truly hope they don't resort to that. I would just hope they turn down the power of the card in some way. Maybe make it 4 Mana, maybe give it a once per turn clause or make it give a specific amount of minions the attack buff could make the card more fair to play against. 

Quote from TheMessanJah >>

 

This is a deck that deals very well with the Token Druid: try it!

https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1270758-duid-anti-token

 I appreciate the gesture, but you are misunderstanding this thread. it's not about beating the deck, it's about questioning the deck and what its capable of.

Quote from KingSevault >>

"I want to be able to beat any deck with any other deck, is that too much to ask?"

 Another silly misunderstanding. 

Quote from ezlife >>

well overall i think blizzard does a fine work nerfing cards, but the most importen thing here is that they nerf it 1 week before next expension which is stupid play from them. but yheaa, small india company

 They do some times, i just think the deck needs to questioned about what it can do and what could happen if it got stronger. 

Quote from user-18143276 >>

Its not unreasonable. It gets shat on so hard by warrior. 

 Not very convincing argument i'm afraid, what if you are not playing Warrior i might ask? Should you give up?

Quote from Eddan >>

Quote from Deck_Fiend >>

Quote from GibreelFury >>

By the way, let's repeat it one more time: the main problem with this deck is that it's fast, effective and, most important, CHEAP!!! Anybody can afford crafting it. Therefore it's everywhere! 

 that's a good thing though. just having the best decks be expensive is elitist. you can't have all the top decks being the most expensive things to craft as that would be completely unfair. 

there needs to be decks everyone can build, that are good. 

also like it's been mentioned about 300 f*cking times now, it has strong counters, it's not omnipotent in any sense.

 Can't say i agree fully here. There needs to be a balance here. The best decks being the most expensive would indeed be a bit elitist, pay to win, but it would be fair to those who have spent a fair bit of money on the game. A cheap deck doing extremely well could also be a problem. It could hinder creativity and variation, why spend money and time, when i can just play this deck and win most of the time? 

Both have really bad downsides, Token Druid has the potential to become that one deck if stronger deck lists get's made or the deck get's more support. 

 All I'm saying, mate is that there has to be cheap decks that are good, because if that wasn't the case, then it's completely off putting to newcomers.

if all the best decks were big decks for instance that cost 15k to craft. the game wouldn't last 2 minutes. 

the game is as popular as it is, partly due to the accessibility afforded by the fact that the game inherently fast paced and has a lot of RNG.

a deck like carpetlock is genius. It's just another zoo deck, right. it teaches you to play the game through value trades and such and can do well VS. some decks. But you include Rafaam and it gives new players access to loads of legendaries, they've probably never seen them and would never get to play them if the game was based around the best decks being the most expensive. 

Rafaam might get an entire batch of new players on the hook through the experiences they will get through this card. If we could only have these experiences with expensive decks, a lot of newer players would never get to that point, because they'd quit it because it would be "P2W BS"

I've always been a fan of decks that contain 1 or 2 legendaries, 2 copies of an epic and then the rest is mostly commons with about 2 or 3 rares (so we're talking like 4 to 6 rares) they normally have to be quite aggro though without much room for experimentation. Rafaam changed that though (ok prince Liam did it first, but to a lesser degree.. then there's malchezaar, but that is not even in the same ballpark)

I think giving newer players a realistic goal as far as what cards they need for a deck is important, and making sure those decks are good enough to compete with is also important. Adding something like Rafaam to the mix is really nice as well as it gives newer players a way to do some crazy stuff and play with cards they wouldn't otherwise have. 

I'm not really thinking about myself or veteran players, I'm thinking about the health of Hearthstone in general. And if theres new players coming in, that's good for HS. 

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

For those of you who keep saying "there isn't enough AOE", know that there is no relevance to that comment.

I can guarantee you that when the devs were balancing the token mechanics, it had much less to do with AOEs and much more to do with available minions and how the trades tend to work out.  If you are playing a deck that is so control-heavy and minion-lite, that is your willful decision.  Let me illustrate:

Let's imagine a guy has just pulled the dreaded turn 8 play:  Wisps plus Soul of the Forest (7 wisps).  So, if you don't kill any of them, one Savage Roar will result in 24 damage (with HP).  One Blessing of Ancients will result in 22 damage.  One of each will result in 37 damage (can't afford hero power).

Now, let's look at how those numbers can be affected.  For every one minion that you can both kill and kill the 2/2 treant resulting from deathrattle, the damage is reduced by (3/3/5) from original numbers.  For every one taunt minion over 3 health, you reduce (6/4 or 6/5 or 8 or 10).  The "or"s depend on the health of the creature and whether or not the hero attack will be enough to kill the taunt.  If you have a single AOE that does 2 or more damage to creatures, you have only to be able to kill a 1/1 in order to reduce by (3/3/5).

So, it's important to note that we are evaluating very nearly the best possible situations for the Token Druid.  In order for this situation to be relevant, the deck has to being turn 8 with Wisps and SotF in hand, as well as 7 other cards.  Please note that two Savage Roar AND one Blessing is possible Turn 9, for a whopping 44 damage, but it is important to remember that most decks have the unbeatable draw.  If you let them get to turn 9 with that many resources in hand, you were either playing way too slow a deck, or the God draw had been found.  The odds of all of these cards turning up in the same 9 turns, AND you not having the ability to end the game before that are very small.

The ability to generate multiple creatures quickly sacrifices the efficiency of most of those creatures.  This means one very simple thing:  You need to adjust your deck to play smaller creatures that make an appearance on the board faster.  A single Sunfury Protector, not even considering the taunt, can draw out two dryads and a hero power itself.

So far, the only decks I've played that have a material problem with Token Druid are Big Shaman and the Res Priest.  Summoner Mage is not a great matchup, but it seems like for every game I've gotten Roared out, I've double Called a Mountain Giant on turn 5 and auto won myself.  These decks are deliberate gimmicks, and that's their own problem.  Most of the higher tier decks are farming Token Druid fairly well.

Of all the comments in this thread, the ones that baffle me the most are those complaining about the Warrior matchup.  I went 24-0 before losing my first game as warrior to druid.  The warrior deck has an absolutely SAVAGE mix of efficient creatures and AOE clears.  I'm honestly having a hard time envisioning a better deck to farm druid with.  If you aren't having similar results, I have to guess that you're just building way too greedy.  Put some more creatures in and take your wins.

 A very convincing argument. But i don't see every deck having the space to tech this heavenly against Token Druid. One deck getting too much influence could hinder the way you make and choose to play decks. We can't let the game evolve into "Play this deck, or play a counter to this deck." I think that would hurt the game.

I played about 100 games of token druid since the expac launched. It got me to rank 2 before the meta became so hostile that i started losing to almost everyone. And it really isn't that hard to be hostile to token druid. It is NOT a problem in this meta.

I went from a very good winrate in the first week, to less than 50 percent after that. Nothing to see here folks. Token druid is done. Move along.

Quote from TheScot >>

I played about 100 games of token druid since the expac launched. It got me to rank 2 before the meta became so hostile that i started losing to almost everyone. And it really isn't that hard to be hostile to token druid. It is NOT a problem in this meta.

I went from a very good winrate in the first week, to less than 50 percent after that. Nothing to see here folks. Token druid is done. Move along.

 there will be a resurgence mate, theres a clear cycle kicking in now. Now that bomb hunter is climbing so high off it;s wins against the control decks. The aggro decks feed on bomb warrior. so token druid, murloc shaman, zoo and tempo rogue can all feed on the bomb hunters. 

I definitely do not think token druid is at all done, it's just not OP. (you can also tweak it to be better against certain match up's as far as I know. I still play my portal version when I play it, ha ha) 

Quote from Dunscot >>

Quote from Eddan >>

 You say it's hard to accomplish having two minions on board, i would have agree on this if we where talking about an entirely different deck. You either ignore or have forgotten about the cards in Token Druid that makes filling the board with multiple minions easy. Acornbearer, Dreamway Guardians, Landscaping, Whispering Woods and The Forest' Aid. With all these ways to fill the board with minions, limited amount of removal for most classes, there is a high chance something will eventually stick. Add Soul of The Forest and the opposing player will have an even harder way to clear the board. Look to my previous comment and you realize doing more than 10 damage for less than 10 Mana is very easy to accomplish for the deck. 

The reason why the deck wasn't so prevalent earlier, was because the tools to deal with the deck was there, now there is a lot less of it. The easiest way to not let this deck become oppressive and overpopulated, would be to not reward this play style so much and let them work for it more, this can be achieved by turning down the power level of the deck a bit. I have no wish to kill the deck, it's part of the Druid class identity, used to play Combo Druid in the past and some elements are shared between them. 

 

 

I know what cards are in the deck and what the deck is capable of. But I'm not living in dreamland where everything works out according to plan every single game.

You, on the other hand, list all the strengths and pretend there are zero flaws and weaknesses in the deck. Druid has plenty of cards that summon two and more minions and a bunch of cards that do exactly nothing without minions. And the minions are not very threatening on their own. Playing minions with buffs takes 4 mana and more. There is some snowball potential, but you need a good draw for it.

While the deck is solid, there is a fair chance for dead or underwhelming turns, and falling behind is a serious issue, since your minions are weak without any other qualities. Even if you can get 10 damage in, your opponent still starts with 30 health. And while it can be done for comparatively little amounts of mana, it is unlikely to happen early in the game and isn't even aimed for. Against Control Decks, Token Druid has a lot of fuel, but it needs time for it that faster decks oftentimes don't allow for.

As for "oppressive and overpopulated": It's Hearthstone. There is almost always a deck at 15%+ playrate, and it's always a very good deck that beats many others. That's how the game works and all the balacing in the world won't change that. But even if I were to agree with you and say that for some arbitrary reason Token Druid should not and never become the best or most popular deck in the game instead of some other deck: It's not even that. It is a good or very good deck, yes. But neither is it too widespread, nor is it too strong. It has a very good matchup spread, a solid winrate, and it's decently popular, but it's not soulcrushingly unfair or way too dominant in any regard. And I can only repeat myself: This is week 2! And it's the first expansion of the year!

You just pointed out that a good deck is a good deck, but I still can't see why this is such a big threat that everyone should share your concern and Team5 should step in. Sidenote: Neither do I think they should nerf Tempo Rogue or Bomb Warrior or whatever. I think people should calm down and see where it goes. Patches was in 30-40% of all decks, all with the same playstyle, for over a year. I'm not saying that this is the level of tolerance we should go with, but TWO WEEKS of Token Druid, with it not even being the most powerful or popular deck, that may or may not continue to exist for 4 months before another expansion possibly, even likely brings another meta, is REALLY not the kind of thing people should get outrageous about.

Your reasoning doesn't really go beyond "it's a powerful deck with potentially unfair mechanics" which goes for just about every single powerful deck in Hearthstone history and is nothing outstanding, not even in this Standard meta. Honestly, I've seen worse. For the unfairness of it's mechanic: it isn't new, it isn't of unparalleled quality, and it isn't even the biggest offender, not by a long shot.

No offense, but I really, genuinely, think your whole "This deck is problematic and should be addessed ASAP" is not warranted. Not in this case, not at this point. And nothing you said so far has even made me consider you could have a point.

 If you knew, why were you saying it in such a way i thought so? I'm sure im not the only one who got a bit confused the first time they read that.

Why wouldn't i? I want to get my point across. When you use one card to summon multiple minions in one turn, those small and weak minions get scary. Due to a small amount of removal for each class and the many ways to fill the board for Token Druid, you get to combine your minions with buffs eventually and when you do, you get an even stronger board presence. The deck is not so reliant on good draws like some decks, eventually something sticks and get's buffed. It's kinda how it goes.

"Falling behind is a serious issue for most deck" Isn't that the case for most deck? 

Who said that damage had to hit a hero? It could be directed to minions on the opposite board. Many deck need time to recover from a board wipe, Token druid can gather a similar board most likely on the next turn. Some Token Druid players i have seen don't often overextend so much that they don't have a backup plan.

15% you say, i had a quite a lot higher number in mind. I think you are too kind to the game when you say "all the balancing in the world won't change that". You balance a game to balance a game, if you haven't successfully balanced the game, you haven't balanced the game, only adjusted it. The deck is successful, rewarding, fast and more importantly cheap. Those with small wallets would at least try to play this and if they like it, they will still play the deck. The whole mechanic the deck has going for it is powerful now and has high potential to be even more powerful. People like to win and if they can do it without spending too much money, that's even better. It might not be there now but it's likely it will get there eventually due to how cheap and effective it already is. Already week 2? Doesn't stop the deck from getting even stronger.  

Does losing in the early turns sound good too you? Does losing from full hp sound good too you? Does cleaning there massive board, only for them to it all over again feel good too you? Want me to go on? You don't think other decks need some adjustments? So we should let it burn before we do something? If history has taught us anything, i and many others can't agree on what you are saying right now.

I can agree on that the deck is not number 1 yet, but Savage Roar and cards like Power of the Wild makes the mechanic powerful now, but could be even more so. 

I'm sad i can't reach you.

Quote from TheScot >>

I played about 100 games of token druid since the expac launched. It got me to rank 2 before the meta became so hostile that i started losing to almost everyone. And it really isn't that hard to be hostile to token druid. It is NOT a problem in this meta.

I went from a very good winrate in the first week, to less than 50 percent after that. Nothing to see here folks. Token druid is done. Move along.

 You must be having bad matchups or playing it wrong then, I climbed from rank 5 to rank 3 with only token druid today. Did cost a lot of matches though, think my winrate is 55-60%

Quote from RispyCrisp >>

Quote from TheScot >>

I played about 100 games of token druid since the expac launched. It got me to rank 2 before the meta became so hostile that i started losing to almost everyone. And it really isn't that hard to be hostile to token druid. It is NOT a problem in this meta.

I went from a very good winrate in the first week, to less than 50 percent after that. Nothing to see here folks. Token druid is done. Move along.

 You must be having bad matchups or playing it wrong then, I climbed from rank 5 to rank 3 with only token druid today. Did cost a lot of matches though, think my winrate is 55-60%

 Did you miss the part where I said "the meta became so hostile"? Yes, I got endless bad matchups. That's the entire point of my post. Token druid can be easily beaten, so it's no good right now. If you're at rank 3, you'll see what I'm talking about soon enough. Meanwhile, I'm in the middle of rank 1 after switching to rogue.

EDIT- I climbed from rank 17 (since I took a few months off of playing) to rank 2 with just Token Druid. Pretty sure I know how to play it, thank you very much. My druid has 500 ranked wins; my rogue has about 110 ranked wins. And I'm doing WAY better with the rogue. That should tell you something about how well certain decks are performing right now.

I've played token druid a lot before the expansion and after. Once RoS released the deck did great with upwards of a 60% win rate. Now everybody has tech'd against it, and I find the deck hovering around 44% win rate by my recent standards. Hardly a threat. 

Eventually, fewer people will play this build. Same will go for other agro decks that are being tech'd against.  Once slower decks come into play, people will feast on all those control decks built to stop druids. 

Give druids a break, they were nerfed into the ground. The meta is changing. 

Because it's freaking awesome to play, especially on casual.  Don't knock it till you try it, bro.

Quote from GibreelFury >>

Quote from TheFubar >>

Quote from DMH_Meta >>

the issue is there aint enough aoe in standard. believe it or not but the loss of defile dragon fury volcano etc left warrior being the only class of achieveing some control over aggro. token druid aint the issue

 Neutral-Doomsayer, Wild Pyromancer, Abomination, Dragonmaw Scorcher, Mossy Horror, Missile Launcher, Baron Geddon, Tunnel Blaster, Batterhead

Druid- Swipe, Stafall

Hunter- Explosive Trap, Unleash the Hounds

Mage- Shooting Star, Arcane Explosion, Cone of Cold, Blast Wave, Blizzard, Flamestrike

Paladin- Consecration, Equality, Shrink Ray, Avenging Wrath

Priest- Circle of Healing, Mass Dispel, Holy Nova, Mass Hysteria

Rogue- Fan of Knives, Vanish

Shaman- Beakered Lightning, Lightning Storm, Hagatha's Scheme, Hagatha the Witch

Warlock- Shriek, Hellfire, Shadowflame, Lord Godfrey, Twisting Nether

There is plenty of AOE available.  Token druid is fine IMO.  Aggro decks need to exist and I don't see a reason why this particular one deserves a nerf currently.  It's existence isn't eliminating entire archetypes from the meta and even as a top deck it's win rate against the other top decks isn't out of line.  Like any strong deck, it will continue to punish unrefined lists and force other decks to adapt.

 You know that the problem of that archetype is the existence of soul of the forest and Savage roar, right? And I guess you also know that the problem when you're playing against this deck is that you keep on spending your whole turns merely postponing their win condition without ever having a shot at putting in place one of your own, do you?

Sounds a lot like some control match-ups to be honest. 

Boy, am I tired of druid domination... wait a second.

I mean, maybe it's the sheer number of druids! Except... except the largest numbers are in tempo rogue, and by 4% more of the meta.

Druid isn't a problem and it makes much more sense to concern ourselves with bigger issues, like Dr. Boom, Mad Genius becoming a "draw this to increase your win rate" card, or Hagatha the Witch churning out pretty good spells more often than not, like the game I spectated the other day that - through sheer force of RNG-generated cards - healed 72 health back in a control matchup. Or even Zul'jin, which has the most focused effect of the three, since you only replay spells you've already played.

Token druid probably needs an examination, but according to the numbers, the only real threat from this deck is moving forward into the next expansion, not the current meta (which is still developing).

I think this thread is treading some land that we often find ourselves in here on the forums. This land is full of dead horses, each surrounded by people kicking and hollering long after there's no more than a pile of viscera left.

Quote from Eddan >>

It all feels unreasonable.

*The deck can flood the board very easily, often for a small cost in mana or cards. Not all classes has enough board clears in Standard to deal with that.

*The deck punishes the other player for mistakes he or she can't possibly play around. Don't have have removal or board clear? Get punished. Leaving 3 minions with low attack on board? Take at least 15 damage or more. 

*The deck can do a lot of damage in 1 Turn for a small cost in either Mana or Cards.

* It's so called counters are not effective enough to deal with it because of the amount of burst potential the deck has. And often the decks are very expensive to make.

How can people be okay with this? 

There are other decks out there that needs a fix too, but this thread is about Token Druid.

 

 Well from my experience control shaman outright poops on it and laughs, and a smart control warrior can easily weather the storm and gas you as well with just about any degree of good luck.  So yeah, it's fine.

Token druid is a powerful aggro deck to be sure, but it is far from the worst we've seen. Did we al just forget that just a month ago there was an entire TWO decks at the top of the meta and both of them were paladin decks? Did we forget that this lasted a solid 3 expansions with odd paladin at the top? 

Not saying this excuses overpowered decks by any means but the meta is more balanced than it has been in over a year and I for one will take a deck like token druid over that any day.

Plus, token druid is far from unbeatable and has a few consistent checks and counters. Once you hit rank 5 and higher you dont see druid too often because it gets beat out by multiple higher end decks. (Mech pally, carpet zoolock, control warrior)

TLDR: The meta is far more balanced and nobody should be complaining right now, enjoy the game as it is, find counters for decks you dont like (they exist) and wait for future balance changes. 

Quote from TheScot >>

Quote from RispyCrisp >>

Quote from TheScot >>

I played about 100 games of token druid since the expac launched. It got me to rank 2 before the meta became so hostile that i started losing to almost everyone. And it really isn't that hard to be hostile to token druid. It is NOT a problem in this meta.

I went from a very good winrate in the first week, to less than 50 percent after that. Nothing to see here folks. Token druid is done. Move along.

 You must be having bad matchups or playing it wrong then, I climbed from rank 5 to rank 3 with only token druid today. Did cost a lot of matches though, think my winrate is 55-60%

 Did you miss the part where I said "the meta became so hostile"? Yes, I got endless bad matchups. That's the entire point of my post. Token druid can be easily beaten, so it's no good right now. If you're at rank 3, you'll see what I'm talking about soon enough. Meanwhile, I'm in the middle of rank 1 after switching to rogue.

EDIT- I climbed from rank 17 (since I took a few months off of playing) to rank 2 with just Token Druid. Pretty sure I know how to play it, thank you very much. My druid has 500 ranked wins; my rogue has about 110 ranked wins. And I'm doing WAY better with the rogue. That should tell you something about how well certain decks are performing right now.

 Which of the meta decks do you have problems with then? I only have troubles with Zoolock and about a 50% winrate against rogue, warrior and mage. And 100% winrate against hunter so far.

I'll play some rank 3 today and see if the deck gets me any further than this.

The problem decks are rogues, warriors, and zoolocks (and mages, as you mentioned). You will only beat warriors if they misplay or draw REALLY bad. Sometimes you can overwhelm a rogue if you get onto the board really fast and really incessantly (but even then, their ability to burst from hand can still get you). And zoolock is an auto-lose. I have never won a game against zoolock as token druid. 

Side note: a 50% winrate against 3 popular classes is pretty bad. It means you are gaining no ground, on average, anytime you face those decks. So, with that in mind, here is a snapshot of my matches after I got to the rank 2/rank 3 area of the meta. This is not a complete list, just what would fit onto the screen for one image. Most recent games are at the top, so order of play goes bottom to top. Remember our previous discussion that the problem classes are warrior, rogue, warlock, and mage? ... I challenge you to find the one game in this list that isn't one of those classes (and also isn't a mirror). And then check the result of that game, since he had tech in his deck, namely a Missile Launcher. You can watch the replay here: https://hsreplay.net/replay/vaSBh7oKa8JQ9wPjXvMyzG