According to my deck tracker - I have a 58% win rate without coin and 52% win rate with coin - so No we do not need to remove the coin.
Why? You have better win rate without the coin? So, we do need to remove the coin, so you can get to legend.
I couldn't help it, sorry..... /s
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“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
HSreplay just added a filter to see the mulligan winrates with and without the coin to make better decisions. To noone's surprise, they are higher going first.
Interrestingly, some cards in specific decks have a higher mulligan winrate on the coin, but the deck as a whole does not.
Go check the numbers yourself, they are right there, often with large samplesizes. There is really no point in suggesting The Coin is imbalanced. In fact, the discussion should be if there is a way to diminish the clear advantage it is going first.
The extra card you get is enough of an advantage as is. either remove the coin or that extra card. i wouldn't be surprised if the winrate for going second was much higher.
If you had taken just half a second to google your idea before posting, you would have seen all kinds of reasons why it's a terrible idea.
Might have saved yourself a bit of good old internet humiliation.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Just to play devils advocate (because I like the coin, but for arguments sake) MTG, and MTG:A for that matter, don’t have a coin. So it’s not incredibly silly to ask this in a thread.
However, as a Rogue main, I live the coin. So I have to disagree with you mate.
The coin is necessary, though I have never liked how it's considered a regular spell card in every way. This makes it too good in certain situations, such as a Rogue coining out SI7 Agent on turn 2 and getting the combo off. I think it'd be better if it only gave you the one extra mana for one turn.
Just to play devils advocate (because I like the coin, but for arguments sake) MTG, and MTG:A for that matter, don’t have a coin. So it’s not incredibly silly to ask this in a thread.
However, as a Rogue main, I live the coin. So I have to disagree with you mate.
Magic the Gathering has the land card type, which is required to cast spells and creatures. Because one has to draw both the land and the spells needed to interact with the game, having an extra card draw is a much more significant advantage than in Hearthstone.
The coin is necessitated specifically by the fact that both players gain mana at the same rate regardless of draw.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I've seen people complain about many stupid things since the expansion came out but this is by far the most stupid one. I would recommend taking the extra card away too. 10/10
Going 2nd is still a disadvantage for the vast majority of decks.
Only few decks can generate an advantage from going 2nd.
Statistically measured.
Has there ever been a relevant competitive deck that was better going second? I know some rogue decks were pretty close but the last time I saw the data was a couple years ago.
Going 2nd is still a disadvantage for the vast majority of decks.
Only few decks can generate an advantage from going 2nd.
Statistically measured.
Has there ever been a relevant competitive deck that was better going second? I know some rogue decks were pretty close but the last time I saw the data was a couple years ago.
This is the most recent data I'm aware of. Bear in mind, this data is somewhat skewed due to the existences of Genn/Baku in the later metas this charts. But there's older information from metas that may be more relevant to the type of meta we are experiencing/will experience in the near future. Really good info here.
TC, not gonna dump on you , as you've (deservedly) gotten enough already. That said, it may be wise to do a little Googling before hitting the publish button. Without the coin, or a similar "catch-up" mechanic, Hearthstone would be beyond unplayable.
The extra card you get is enough of an advantage as is. either remove the coin or that extra card. i wouldn't be surprised if the winrate for going second was much higher.
You clearly must be new or very unexperienced, Hearthstone is a TEMPO game and the difference between going first or second is insane, going first means that, in theory, you're the aggresor and dictate the tempo of the game, even most control decks, which have close to no early game often don't appreciate going second. There are very few decks that appreciate or actually want to be playing on the coin, stuff like old Miracle Rogue (Cause the new "Myracle" variations are much more aggro and want to go first but are still ok going second) and currently something like Conjurer Mage (Cause you want a bigger hand but the extra mana provided by The Coin is often irrelevant).
Even with an extra card and an extra mana you are usually behind and need strong swing turns to turn the tempo on your favor. Just so you can visualize this here's the following example, think of the difference between playing token druid vs. rogue or mage, going first and second. You go first, drop an Acorn Bearer, you opponent has no turn 1 play so they have to think between coining their hero power (Which btw is incorrect on 99,9% of the cases) or they just take 2 more damage, if the mage or rogue are going first they can develop a 1 drop (or not) but most important they can deal with your turn 1 play with a simple hero power. Makes a huge difference, so think a bit more before saying that an extra card is enough to balance all the tempo loss.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
You have automatically board control if you start first, that's why they give you the coin, so that you can counter a play with a bigger mana play so you can actually fight for board control. Although in constructed this fact is a little mitigated by a large array of removal, you can see what I'm talking about in arena where the issue with going second is more clear. When you are not deciding the trades, your opponent trades more efficiently and snowballs his lead to a win.
Wouldn't everyone really like to hear Kripp's take on this?
I'd short salt futures in a heartbeat.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Why? You have better win rate without the coin? So, we do need to remove the coin, so you can get to legend.
I couldn't help it, sorry..... /s
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
HSreplay just added a filter to see the mulligan winrates with and without the coin to make better decisions. To noone's surprise, they are higher going first.
Interrestingly, some cards in specific decks have a higher mulligan winrate on the coin, but the deck as a whole does not.
Go check the numbers yourself, they are right there, often with large samplesizes. There is really no point in suggesting The Coin is imbalanced. In fact, the discussion should be if there is a way to diminish the clear advantage it is going first.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
the only change thats even possible here is "its not a spell" and / or "does not trigger combo" but with the mana wyrm nerf even that's uneccesarry
Only rogue and even warlock see advantage in not starting the game, all other classes and decks always start is an advantage.
If you had taken just half a second to google your idea before posting, you would have seen all kinds of reasons why it's a terrible idea.
Might have saved yourself a bit of good old internet humiliation.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
man, this forum...
Just to play devils advocate (because I like the coin, but for arguments sake) MTG, and MTG:A for that matter, don’t have a coin. So it’s not incredibly silly to ask this in a thread.
However, as a Rogue main, I live the coin. So I have to disagree with you mate.
The coin is necessary, though I have never liked how it's considered a regular spell card in every way. This makes it too good in certain situations, such as a Rogue coining out SI7 Agent on turn 2 and getting the combo off. I think it'd be better if it only gave you the one extra mana for one turn.
Magic the Gathering has the land card type, which is required to cast spells and creatures. Because one has to draw both the land and the spells needed to interact with the game, having an extra card draw is a much more significant advantage than in Hearthstone.
The coin is necessitated specifically by the fact that both players gain mana at the same rate regardless of draw.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I've seen people complain about many stupid things since the expansion came out but this is by far the most stupid one. I would recommend taking the extra card away too. 10/10
Make the coin cost 1 mana, there problem solved.
Has there ever been a relevant competitive deck that was better going second? I know some rogue decks were pretty close but the last time I saw the data was a couple years ago.
Miracle Rogue, and old Flamewaker Tempo Mage for sure, have (had) advantage for going 2nd.
Dunno about more recent decks.
I could dare a bet about all reactive decks, but it's just a guess, i have no proof of that.
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/the-witchwood-coin-differential-a-silent-problem/
This is the most recent data I'm aware of. Bear in mind, this data is somewhat skewed due to the existences of Genn/Baku in the later metas this charts. But there's older information from metas that may be more relevant to the type of meta we are experiencing/will experience in the near future. Really good info here.
TC, not gonna dump on you , as you've (deservedly) gotten enough already. That said, it may be wise to do a little Googling before hitting the publish button. Without the coin, or a similar "catch-up" mechanic, Hearthstone would be beyond unplayable.
You clearly must be new or very unexperienced, Hearthstone is a TEMPO game and the difference between going first or second is insane, going first means that, in theory, you're the aggresor and dictate the tempo of the game, even most control decks, which have close to no early game often don't appreciate going second. There are very few decks that appreciate or actually want to be playing on the coin, stuff like old Miracle Rogue (Cause the new "Myracle" variations are much more aggro and want to go first but are still ok going second) and currently something like Conjurer Mage (Cause you want a bigger hand but the extra mana provided by The Coin is often irrelevant).
Even with an extra card and an extra mana you are usually behind and need strong swing turns to turn the tempo on your favor. Just so you can visualize this here's the following example, think of the difference between playing token druid vs. rogue or mage, going first and second. You go first, drop an Acorn Bearer, you opponent has no turn 1 play so they have to think between coining their hero power (Which btw is incorrect on 99,9% of the cases) or they just take 2 more damage, if the mage or rogue are going first they can develop a 1 drop (or not) but most important they can deal with your turn 1 play with a simple hero power. Makes a huge difference, so think a bit more before saying that an extra card is enough to balance all the tempo loss.
Is this real !?
My eyes are bleeding.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
Better idea: remove going first from the game. It's an unfair tempo advantage...hm maybe I'll make a thread for it
You have automatically board control if you start first, that's why they give you the coin, so that you can counter a play with a bigger mana play so you can actually fight for board control. Although in constructed this fact is a little mitigated by a large array of removal, you can see what I'm talking about in arena where the issue with going second is more clear. When you are not deciding the trades, your opponent trades more efficiently and snowballs his lead to a win.
The coin stays.
Wouldn't everyone really like to hear Kripp's take on this?
I'd short salt futures in a heartbeat.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Acording to statistics, going second is a huge disadvantage that at least 3 coins can remove. Hearthstone players makes me cancer even im not playing