I've noticed a fair number of people who seem to be claiming that the bomb cards in Bomb Warrior are simply bad. I'm not outrightly saying that is right or wrong, but I want to start a discussion on the merits / demerits of them and whether or not that is really the case. If you have a reason, then please explain it - I'm open to understanding the thought process on it. And try and be nice, if possible - avoid calling people names if they just happen to disagree or not follow your reasoning. :-)
Anyway, so the key cards seem to be : A 3/3 for 3 mana which deals 5 damage (at some point). To me, this seems pretty strong. Even if you dont see the bomb go off, it's not a wasted card. A 3/3 is reasonable for 3 mana.
A 5/5 for 5 mana which deals 5 damage (at some point). This seems like perhaps the weakest of the cards. 5/5 for 5 isn't terrible, but it's not great. It's still a big target and hard to clear. The question on this card is whether the synergy outweighs the need for a replacement card that deals damage quicker).
A 3/2 weapon for 4 mana that deals an extra 10+ damage (at some point). I think that this being a weapon is perhaps overlooked. You can beef it up with Upgrade to make it deal a lot more damage overall and it is harder to get rid of than a minion, so it is likely to deal at least 10 extra damage to you. I think it is very easy to misjudge the power of this card, myself.
Overall I think the bomb cards are prety strong - but I also think the 5-cost minion is the weakest of them all; we rarely saw it played before this deck arrived, and I don't know whether it can be that important. Perhaps only including one of these is the way to go. I've not spoken about Dr Boom, because that cards merits are based on synergy with the other cards and the more of the other cards you have, the stronger it gets. In the right situation it's super strong. Without help it's weaksauce. That seems pretty balanced to me.
I think it's not that hard to evaluate. Just compare bomb warrior to the old C'thun decks. You're playing good-in-arena cards to enable a broken card
The enablers are only slightly worse on average - C'thun cards are generally stats = mana * 2 + 1. Bomb cards are stats = mana * 2. The 3/3 is arguably equal to a C'thun card because of the deck's great mech synergy
The enablers do stuff independent of the finisher - bombs do damage on their own, especially to decks that draw quickly. Giving your C'thun stats does nothing until you play C'thun
You need less enablers - 1 bomb makes new Boom equal the old Boom. That's already great, especially when the boom hero card is in rotation. 2 bombs is bonkers and 3 is max value. This means you need to run less bomb cards to make Boom good than C'thun cards to make C'thun good
Your finisher scales faster - 1 bomb is equal to +2/+2 in stats and avg 2(2.5)=5 damage. 1 C'thun proc is on average +2/+2 and 2 damage
Boom bots are much harder to clear than the C'thun body
Boom comes down 3 turns earlier than C'thun - this enables aggressive builds
You can run 2 elephants, but only 1 Brann
People who claim the deck is not good do so because they're playing decks that counter it. That's fine. Every deck has bad matchups, even tier 1 decks and decks that are not healthy for a meta. In fact, decks are considered not healthy when the entire meta warps around it, which is literally what's happening right now
@NightCrawl3r Amazing analysis thanks! I would have never thought to make the comparison. Fascinating! I wasn't playing when WotOG came out. Interesting that it was also the first set of a rotation. Did the meta warp around C'thun initially? In the end the C'thun decks weren't OP right? But you showed how Bomb Warrior is much better than C'thun decks.
So do you think this is a legit top tier deck that the meta will be forced to warp around indefinitely? Seems like the control version has the removal to deal with aggro and the bombs and Blastmaster to take out other control decks.
a control warrior with 4 bomb cards works fine but the more control the likely someone does not want to play bomb cards or they want to go full bomb and less control and everybody is teching against the bombs so stepping away from it seems logic at the moment.
I think the real issue is the Bomb mechanic itself.
However counterable the deck may be, you feel and are *powerless* against the incoming Bombs, once in your deck.
You either draw very little, or you heal quite a lot, but this depends on your deck, and very little on the strategy you can apply.
What is certain is that Bomb Warrior is solid strong. There's no possible doubt about that. I'm sure it will also permeate Wild meta: if i'm right, that's telling of the power of Bombs.
@NightCrawl3r Amazing analysis thanks! I would have never thought to make the comparison. Fascinating! I wasn't playing when WotOG came out. Interesting that it was also the first set of a rotation. Did the meta warp around C'thun initially? In the end the C'thun decks weren't OP right? But you showed how Bomb Warrior is much better than C'thun decks.
So do you think this is a legit top tier deck that the meta will be forced to warp around indefinitely? Seems like the control version has the removal to deal with aggro and the bombs and Blastmaster to take out other control decks.
The WotOG meta was pretty dynamic. It started out super greedy, then fell back to a midrange state. I think this is because it was the first ever rotation and the community didn't know how to find the best decks efficiently
But to answer your question, no, the meta wasn't warped around C'thun. C'thun decks were moderately popular over many classes in the beginning but people weren't here by the dozen asking how to counter C'thun decks or playing decks specifically because it has a favorable matchup vs C'thun
C'thun decks eventually got pushed out of the meta when more powerful sets were released, especially MSG. Meanwhile, Dr Boom and his bombs are here competing with the raven sets WW, TBD and RR. These sets were so weak that they barely made an impact when the mammoth sets were in rotation last year
I don't know if the deck is sticking around indefinitely but it's in a much better spot C'thun (which was balanced) was ever in and the argument that deck X is bad because deck Y beats it is pretty dumb
Short version: Bomb cards keep the deck in check by being terrible tempo, but this will change once people optimize the deck lists to work around Blastmaster and Mad Genius (so probably just Clockworks and Wrenches, not even using Greenskin or upgrades)
If Warrior is scary right now, just wait until they actually start using good cards
Still haven’t lost to a bomb warrior yet whether at rank 4 or in the tavern brawl. Their cards are just bad with the only payoff being blastmaster boom.
Still haven’t lost to a bomb warrior yet whether at rank 4 or in the tavern brawl. Their cards are just bad with the only payoff being blastmaster boom.
The thing is that both mech, rush and control warriors are fine decks on their own, so the Bombs are just the cherries on top with a super strong 7-drop with insane synergy with the Herocard.
I am 100% sure it will be a tier 1 deck even when more decks are refined and the meta is setteled.
I played 10 matches with a tempo bomb deck in wild at rank 5, won only 2. Ive beaten every bomb warrior I have faced so far, with a variety of decks. Its very bad
I played 10 matches with a tempo bomb deck in wild at rank 5, won only 2. Ive beaten every bomb warrior I have faced so far, with a variety of decks. Its very bad
Wild rank 5? The difference in powerlevel to standard is huge atm! Wild decks are way more explosive and have much better agressive and defensive tools....
I played 10 matches with a tempo bomb deck in wild at rank 5, won only 2. Ive beaten every bomb warrior I have faced so far, with a variety of decks. Its very bad
I think control is the way to go... I haven't lost much to tempo bomb guys. Like i remeber only one loss after not being able to remove frothing because i had only 3 damage... Other than that tempo warrior is bad. Control bomb warrior seems a bit insane though right now.
@NightCrawl3r yeah I feel by printing all these powerful cards they really missed an opportunity to reset the power levels much lower and have more parity between a wider variety of decks and also allow a lot more Raven cards to be included in decks. As it stands, at least for the next few months, seems like most decks are going to be filled with RoS cards and we'll just see slightly more Raven cards than we have been. And the top tier decks are looking insane.
We were so close! I thought we were suffering through Raven's low power unplayable cards so that we'd get a fresh start and power reset at rotation. Instead seems like we got another KnC.
I'm really liking bomb warrior right now. I'm doing a Mech/Rush bomb warrior that is no way refined and it feels very strong. I think bomb warrior will stay in the meta in some way until the next expansion.
Out of interest, what are the tech options you have against the bombs? I'm aware of the legendary that replaces your deck with 2 cvopies of 5 cards. And possibly to some extent the Warlock card that destroys half your deck (though that seems not much of an option). Just found myself a little stumped as to ways to counter the deck without just resroting to "Me Go Face" decks. Do control / combo decks have any real chance against this deck? (Or is it a lost cause?)
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I've noticed a fair number of people who seem to be claiming that the bomb cards in Bomb Warrior are simply bad.
I'm not outrightly saying that is right or wrong, but I want to start a discussion on the merits / demerits of them and whether or not that is really the case.
If you have a reason, then please explain it - I'm open to understanding the thought process on it. And try and be nice, if possible - avoid calling people names if they just happen to disagree or not follow your reasoning. :-)
Anyway, so the key cards seem to be :
A 3/3 for 3 mana which deals 5 damage (at some point). To me, this seems pretty strong. Even if you dont see the bomb go off, it's not a wasted card. A 3/3 is reasonable for 3 mana.
A 5/5 for 5 mana which deals 5 damage (at some point). This seems like perhaps the weakest of the cards. 5/5 for 5 isn't terrible, but it's not great. It's still a big target and hard to clear. The question on this card is whether the synergy outweighs the need for a replacement card that deals damage quicker).
A 3/2 weapon for 4 mana that deals an extra 10+ damage (at some point). I think that this being a weapon is perhaps overlooked. You can beef it up with Upgrade to make it deal a lot more damage overall and it is harder to get rid of than a minion, so it is likely to deal at least 10 extra damage to you.
I think it is very easy to misjudge the power of this card, myself.
Overall I think the bomb cards are prety strong - but I also think the 5-cost minion is the weakest of them all; we rarely saw it played before this deck arrived, and I don't know whether it can be that important. Perhaps only including one of these is the way to go.
I've not spoken about Dr Boom, because that cards merits are based on synergy with the other cards and the more of the other cards you have, the stronger it gets. In the right situation it's super strong. Without help it's weaksauce. That seems pretty balanced to me.
The 5 drop is dread. The others are fine. They're obviously under statted but they enable Blastmaster Boom, which is broken.
I think it's not that hard to evaluate. Just compare bomb warrior to the old C'thun decks. You're playing good-in-arena cards to enable a broken card
People who claim the deck is not good do so because they're playing decks that counter it. That's fine. Every deck has bad matchups, even tier 1 decks and decks that are not healthy for a meta. In fact, decks are considered not healthy when the entire meta warps around it, which is literally what's happening right now
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
@NightCrawl3r Amazing analysis thanks! I would have never thought to make the comparison. Fascinating! I wasn't playing when WotOG came out. Interesting that it was also the first set of a rotation. Did the meta warp around C'thun initially? In the end the C'thun decks weren't OP right? But you showed how Bomb Warrior is much better than C'thun decks.
So do you think this is a legit top tier deck that the meta will be forced to warp around indefinitely? Seems like the control version has the removal to deal with aggro and the bombs and Blastmaster to take out other control decks.
People claim they are bad? maybe prerelease when I saw boom and the goblin I thought they were bad, then I saw the weapon... which is insane
a control warrior with 4 bomb cards works fine but the more control the likely someone does not want to play bomb cards or they want to go full bomb and less control and everybody is teching against the bombs so stepping away from it seems logic at the moment.
I think the real issue is the Bomb mechanic itself.
However counterable the deck may be, you feel and are *powerless* against the incoming Bombs, once in your deck.
You either draw very little, or you heal quite a lot, but this depends on your deck, and very little on the strategy you can apply.
What is certain is that Bomb Warrior is solid strong. There's no possible doubt about that. I'm sure it will also permeate Wild meta: if i'm right, that's telling of the power of Bombs.
shhh people need to think its bad so it doesn't get nerfed!!!
Prince Liam
The WotOG meta was pretty dynamic. It started out super greedy, then fell back to a midrange state. I think this is because it was the first ever rotation and the community didn't know how to find the best decks efficiently
But to answer your question, no, the meta wasn't warped around C'thun. C'thun decks were moderately popular over many classes in the beginning but people weren't here by the dozen asking how to counter C'thun decks or playing decks specifically because it has a favorable matchup vs C'thun
C'thun decks eventually got pushed out of the meta when more powerful sets were released, especially MSG. Meanwhile, Dr Boom and his bombs are here competing with the raven sets WW, TBD and RR. These sets were so weak that they barely made an impact when the mammoth sets were in rotation last year
I don't know if the deck is sticking around indefinitely but it's in a much better spot C'thun (which was balanced) was ever in and the argument that deck X is bad because deck Y beats it is pretty dumb
Legend with : S65 Freeze Mage, S57 Maly Gonk Druid, S57 "Okay" Shaman, S53 Boom-zooka Hunter, S53 Maly Tog Druid, S52 Wild Tog Druid ft.Blingtron, S50 Quest Rogue, S49 Dead Man's Warrior, S41 Wild Clown Fiesta Druid, S41 Hadronox Jade Druid, S40 Wild OTK Dragon Druid, S35 SMOrc Shaman, S33 Jade Druid, S22 Control Priest, S19 Control Priest
Without trying to self-promote (well maybe a little)
I actually broke down the issues about Warrior in general right now and I can't be bothered to do it again here
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-game-modes/standard-format/232499-regarding-warrior
Short version: Bomb cards keep the deck in check by being terrible tempo, but this will change once people optimize the deck lists to work around Blastmaster and Mad Genius (so probably just Clockworks and Wrenches, not even using Greenskin or upgrades)
If Warrior is scary right now, just wait until they actually start using good cards
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Still haven’t lost to a bomb warrior yet whether at rank 4 or in the tavern brawl. Their cards are just bad with the only payoff being blastmaster boom.
The thing is that both mech, rush and control warriors are fine decks on their own, so the Bombs are just the cherries on top with a super strong 7-drop with insane synergy with the Herocard.
I am 100% sure it will be a tier 1 deck even when more decks are refined and the meta is setteled.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
I played 10 matches with a tempo bomb deck in wild at rank 5, won only 2. Ive beaten every bomb warrior I have faced so far, with a variety of decks. Its very bad
Wild rank 5? The difference in powerlevel to standard is huge atm! Wild decks are way more explosive and have much better agressive and defensive tools....
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
How does Prince Liam counter a Bomb in your deck since he transforms 1 mana cards, and bombs are 5 mana?
I think control is the way to go... I haven't lost much to tempo bomb guys. Like i remeber only one loss after not being able to remove frothing because i had only 3 damage... Other than that tempo warrior is bad. Control bomb warrior seems a bit insane though right now.
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist. ©Trimutius
@NightCrawl3r yeah I feel by printing all these powerful cards they really missed an opportunity to reset the power levels much lower and have more parity between a wider variety of decks and also allow a lot more Raven cards to be included in decks. As it stands, at least for the next few months, seems like most decks are going to be filled with RoS cards and we'll just see slightly more Raven cards than we have been. And the top tier decks are looking insane.
We were so close! I thought we were suffering through Raven's low power unplayable cards so that we'd get a fresh start and power reset at rotation. Instead seems like we got another KnC.
I'm really liking bomb warrior right now. I'm doing a Mech/Rush bomb warrior that is no way refined and it feels very strong. I think bomb warrior will stay in the meta in some way until the next expansion.
Out of interest, what are the tech options you have against the bombs?
I'm aware of the legendary that replaces your deck with 2 cvopies of 5 cards.
And possibly to some extent the Warlock card that destroys half your deck (though that seems not much of an option).
Just found myself a little stumped as to ways to counter the deck without just resroting to "Me Go Face" decks.
Do control / combo decks have any real chance against this deck? (Or is it a lost cause?)