I think a part of it is basic human nature. That isn't to say that I think people in general are bad. In fact I think people in general, in person, are good. However, HS is a competitive game. That means it draws in a certain type of person. I played Magic for years, and even when playing with close friends tempers could become elevated because there is a level of competition involved. The community as a whole was always great. I met a ton of really nice people and for the most part everyone was friendly. During games, especially tournaments though, there was always that underlying desire to win, and RNG also plays a huge role there. Your opponent gets "lucky" or you get "unlucky". The game has skill, but how much of it is more about the uncontrollable elements? You throw in the current general social status today and things get even more wild. The idea of celebrity has changed. Reality TV that isn't at all realistic. Internet celebrity that generally rewards obnoxious, rude or even mean behavior is everywhere. Sportsmanship and humility are dying out. Its not about being friendly, kind or respectful. Its about "Beating up noobs, BRO!". Almost all of the biggest streamers BM, which means Bad Manners. I try to add everyone I lose a game to and then be cool/nice to them. Almost everyone is like, "I can't believe you didn't flame me!". That is what the community expects. Rampant aggressive behavior, and they still accept friend requests. If people had to really sit down across from each other and play I can bet the grand majority of those ragers wouldn't ever act like that in person/public. I mean look at the live tournaments? Even when people lose to absurd RNG they don't rage out of control. Because you can't act like that. But hidden behind your screen you can do whatever you want. The only way to make a positive change is to be positive. I want to rage everyone I lose to that I add, but I don't. I try to build toward the community I had in a game I can't afford to play anymore.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Well, i think Ppl think they fully understand and read the game, we make a deck and we think did well and prepare ourselves that setup will be good. But then we play some bad matchups/ making misplays (maybe havent realised) . Getting Salt. It doesn’t matter our deck is above 50% winrate, because we think when we win with our precious deck its well deserved(then the opponents salty lel)
Honestly its a cool card game and good to play but many Ppl overestimate their skills.
I think most salt is generated by people taking things too personally, in a context, game and forum, that is in fact just loosely related to each person.
Most calls for nerfs are generated by people being beaten, repeatedly, or in ridiculous ways by some decks/cards. While some situations are truly stupid (yes, Big Priest), and should not exist, the majority of cases is just unfavourable RNG (match-up or game-dependant) handled as if it was a personal offense.
It happens to me as well, unfortunately, except i never get to the point of calling for a nerf (unless it is Big Priest: i know i sound tedious, sorry, but that BS deck and its developers deserve to get called out at any occasion until they nerf it).
Same thing about arguments in a forum: users take things too personally, and end up accusing and offending directly their 'rival', instead of contesting the subject.
Humans tend to think the sphere of influence of their person is much bigger than it actually is.
The distortion of consciousness generates clashes and therefore negativity.
Forums and message boards are generally negative because defense of the game is attacked, and the defender insulted as a fangirl or corporate shill, leaving a negativity echo chamber.
When you create a game whose UI you don't care to improve after several years, targetted at 15 year old kids, while making every possible decision along the lines of "our players are too stupid and will get confused by anything even a bit complicated", it's impossible to not attract rage.
Why? Because they chose the design and this target audience. They chose to not improve nor balance the game more actively. They choose to not create HS 2.0 with all/most of the features it could have (after so many years). They choose to introduce power creeps in every expansion. They are the ones who consider their customers morons for even very simple things. They are the ones trying to cover up the shits they do with silly statements instead of actually being up-front about it, or asking the community some key questions BEFORE they implement something.
Couple these with human nature and puberty and you get the rage. Most of it is correct though.
The word ' negative' or ' negativity' are political in its use. It might often be used by people who want this forum to be a 'share your good vibes' -thread.
Another problem is distinguish negativity from being critical. If you confuse, any question that doesn't seem to praise Blizzard for this outstanding game, will be coined 'negative. ' If you only want to live in a world where the sun suppose to shine 24/7, rain is 'negative.' If you call rain negative because you always want cloudless sunny days, you might want to rethink.
So before you state 'negativity' first define the word. On this forum the two get confused all the time. Has to do with the types commenting here. Give it a try.
The 'everything is fine' - comments. All positive, the sun is always shining, Blizzard can do no wrong.
The 'I know, you are stupid ' - comments.
The 'you are negative, so you must suck at the game' - comments.
The 'look how much I know' - comments.
The 'lets make the world a better place' - comments ( the game must improve in terms of balance, skill etc.).
The ' f*ck you' - comments.
There's nothing wrong with 4. Tendency though to morph into 2. The problems arise with 1-3. They have a favorite villain: 5. Type 5 comments are unjustly accused to be negative while they seem to be critical for improvements sake. But 1-3 are the most annoying commentators at times. If they clash, on a bad day, it morphs into 6. Time to close the thread then. 4 tries to be the gentleman looking for upvotes. The been there, done that attitude.
A civilized 4 and 5 seem to be the ideal 'matchup. '
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
I totally agree. Blizzard fun Childs are what are ruining the community.
Weak moderation on the developers and on community driven sites. If you want to create some order and a sense of respect you have to be authoritative. There is too much entitlement and too little reprimanding both in game and especially on sites like this. However, we indoctrinate a sense of free-speech and push it to the absolute limit. You’ll notice that comments and threads that get shut down had physical threats at its core. Otherwise we enable you to say anything you want to another behind the safety of your keyboard and call it a non issue.
Whoa calm down there lil dictator :p
Seriously though, if you don't believe in freedom of speech for those who disagree with you, you don't believe in it at all.As you said, as long as what i am saying does not do any physical or any other kind of harm to anyone else, i have every right to say it.My freedom's only boundary, is the freedom of the others.
As for op, seriously there is not even a fraction of the salt that the fanboys claim there is.Just do a search of whining threads and the whining about other people whining threads.The number of the latter dwarves the former.
''Whhaaaaaaaa, they do not like everything my favourite company does!Whaaaaaaaaaaa!This community is so salty!Whhaaaaaaaaaa! Such negativity!Whaaaaaa''
Yes, but there is a difference between using your rights to disagree and form intellectual conversation and just outright being rude or engaging in harassment. I'm trying to say that we need to hold each other to a certain standard of decency. A lot of modern game designers are skimping on this because they are afraid to fight back a little against the internet. Perfect example here- what I highlighted in your response to my post. It may have just been a joke/sarcastic, and don't worry I'm not hurt over it, but you outright name-called me. It simply didn't need to be included in your response but you still did it anyway. Everything you wrote after in response to me was thought-out and part of the discussion. OP's topic is about what creates or enables a negative community. Unfortunately, whether serious or not, you partook in the very behavior that OP is putting into question. You could have just argued against the nature of the community, maybe used some of those other threads as a key in your argument, but instead you just ran OP and me down in a response that is less a discussion and more a straight insult.
Might be best to not bring up the topic of Free Speech. That concept really doesn't apply to a private forum in the way that many want to run it.
Forums are under the whim of their owners and the community. Any speech not acceptable by both will face repercussion. For example, I am NOT allowed to make a 100% salt post without the community and the mods descending on me (to note: a concept which is a BIG reason why I set up roots here.)
In fact, no private forum that I know of offers anything close to true Free Speech. Even the 'dreaded' /b limits your speech to what they deem as accepted. You CAN be banned from there. Even if you aren't, if you harass their way of life the community WILL turn against you.
Free Speech is NOT a concept that works outside of a governmental limitation (i.e. US' First Amendment). Even evoking it is simply folly. Your speech will always be limited with the risk of repercussions in any other format.
Which is also why it's rather silly to talk about how a community of people who actively participate in an activity will quickly drown out negativity about that activity. Most who no longer like the game leave. It's less 'a mass of fanboys' as it is yelling in a football stadium about how much football sucks then wondering why so many people there don't agree with you. Especially if you turn to negative terms towards said community.
Fact is, joining a community means you accept the community's standards and limitations. That includes actual rules explicitly placed and the community made implicit agreements. You have no rights to expect anything you do or say that is not accepted in both ways to be accepted without blow back. This does not automatically mean that disagreement cannot exist, but, to put it in one way the only audience you have is the community of 'fanboys'. Respect that and phrase your words accordingly.
Yes, but there is a difference between using your rights to disagree and form intellectual conversation and just outright being rude or engaging in harassment. I'm trying to say that we need to hold each other to a certain standard of decency. A lot of modern game designers are skimping on this because they are afraid to fight back a little against the internet. Perfect example here- what I highlighted in your response to my post. It may have just been a joke/sarcastic, and don't worry I'm not hurt over it, but you outright name-called me. It simply didn't need to be included in your response but you still did it anyway. Everything you wrote after in response to me was thought-out and part of the discussion. OP's topic is about what creates or enables a negative community. Unfortunately, whether serious or not, you partook in the very behavior that OP is putting into question. You could have just argued against the nature of the community, maybe used some of those other threads as a key in your argument, but instead you just ran OP and me down in a response that is less a discussion and more a straight insult.
Ok ok ok, i admit that you are right. Even though my original post was only a banter/ sassy jokes, it could be more respectful and constructive. I understand what you are trying to say and the way you express your opinion is admirable, i have to admit, buuuut... this is a game forum.
I am a playful/douchy/sarcastic person by nature and the fact that i have to be 100% professional in my line of work, makes it nearly impossible to stay 100% constructive and serious in my free time too.Especially in a game forum. I admit that direct insults are way to much even here, but sassy bashing is fair game imo :p. You are free to disagree and technically you are right, but life is way to harsh to take it seriously all the time. So as you understood i meant no real offence neither towards you or op but i will glady banter with you and op (or anyone for that matter) in the future too if i have the chance. And of course you are free to to do the same. :p
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
So ... everyone who disagrees with you in insane?
What? "Insane"? Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say, dude.
There is probably a lot of psychology studies out there about this but the general consensus I have seen is the whole vocal minority thing plus anonymity of the internet combined equals loud obnoxious angry people saying all sorts of mean shit. Plus in text you lack nuance so opinions tend to be either interpreted or presented in much more extremes than normal. This isn't unique to Heartstone it is pretty universal. There are so many threads in magic the gathering forums about it being a dead game or dying or being otherwise terrible for every imaginable reason. Oh yeah and confirmation bias and negative bias are very hard things to overcome and very common for people to fall victim to.
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
So ... everyone who disagrees with you in insane?
What? "Insane"? Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say, dude.
Well, somebody's crazy if you honestly believe every non-hater is hoping to get hired by Blizzard.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
So ... everyone who disagrees with you in insane?
What? "Insane"? Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say, dude.
Well, somebody's crazy if you honestly believe every non-hater is hoping to get hired by Blizzard.
"Every non-hater"? LOL, I'm talking only about fanboys, my dear FortyDust. :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Humans are competitive by nature.
On top of that being a gracious loser (and sometimes winner) is not that common a trait.
People who are happy generally aren't very vocal about it, people who are unhappy are, hence the salt mines
I think a part of it is basic human nature. That isn't to say that I think people in general are bad. In fact I think people in general, in person, are good. However, HS is a competitive game. That means it draws in a certain type of person. I played Magic for years, and even when playing with close friends tempers could become elevated because there is a level of competition involved. The community as a whole was always great. I met a ton of really nice people and for the most part everyone was friendly. During games, especially tournaments though, there was always that underlying desire to win, and RNG also plays a huge role there. Your opponent gets "lucky" or you get "unlucky". The game has skill, but how much of it is more about the uncontrollable elements? You throw in the current general social status today and things get even more wild. The idea of celebrity has changed. Reality TV that isn't at all realistic. Internet celebrity that generally rewards obnoxious, rude or even mean behavior is everywhere. Sportsmanship and humility are dying out. Its not about being friendly, kind or respectful. Its about "Beating up noobs, BRO!". Almost all of the biggest streamers BM, which means Bad Manners. I try to add everyone I lose a game to and then be cool/nice to them. Almost everyone is like, "I can't believe you didn't flame me!". That is what the community expects. Rampant aggressive behavior, and they still accept friend requests. If people had to really sit down across from each other and play I can bet the grand majority of those ragers wouldn't ever act like that in person/public. I mean look at the live tournaments? Even when people lose to absurd RNG they don't rage out of control. Because you can't act like that. But hidden behind your screen you can do whatever you want. The only way to make a positive change is to be positive. I want to rage everyone I lose to that I add, but I don't. I try to build toward the community I had in a game I can't afford to play anymore.
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Well, i think Ppl think they fully understand and read the game, we make a deck and we think did well and prepare ourselves that setup will be good. But then we play some bad matchups/ making misplays (maybe havent realised) . Getting Salt. It doesn’t matter our deck is above 50% winrate, because we think when we win with our precious deck its well deserved(then the opponents salty lel)
Honestly its a cool card game and good to play but many Ppl overestimate their skills.
I think most salt is generated by people taking things too personally, in a context, game and forum, that is in fact just loosely related to each person.
Most calls for nerfs are generated by people being beaten, repeatedly, or in ridiculous ways by some decks/cards. While some situations are truly stupid (yes, Big Priest), and should not exist, the majority of cases is just unfavourable RNG (match-up or game-dependant) handled as if it was a personal offense.
It happens to me as well, unfortunately, except i never get to the point of calling for a nerf (unless it is Big Priest: i know i sound tedious, sorry, but that BS deck and its developers deserve to get called out at any occasion until they nerf it).
Same thing about arguments in a forum: users take things too personally, and end up accusing and offending directly their 'rival', instead of contesting the subject.
Humans tend to think the sphere of influence of their person is much bigger than it actually is.
The distortion of consciousness generates clashes and therefore negativity.
Forums and message boards are generally negative because defense of the game is attacked, and the defender insulted as a fangirl or corporate shill, leaving a negativity echo chamber.
@op: three things, in this order:
1. Human nature
2. Bad designs and decisions from developers
3. Target audience
When you create a game whose UI you don't care to improve after several years, targetted at 15 year old kids, while making every possible decision along the lines of "our players are too stupid and will get confused by anything even a bit complicated", it's impossible to not attract rage.
Why? Because they chose the design and this target audience. They chose to not improve nor balance the game more actively. They choose to not create HS 2.0 with all/most of the features it could have (after so many years). They choose to introduce power creeps in every expansion. They are the ones who consider their customers morons for even very simple things. They are the ones trying to cover up the shits they do with silly statements instead of actually being up-front about it, or asking the community some key questions BEFORE they implement something.
Couple these with human nature and puberty and you get the rage. Most of it is correct though.
The word ' negative' or ' negativity' are political in its use. It might often be used by people who want this forum to be a 'share your good vibes' -thread.
Another problem is distinguish negativity from being critical. If you confuse, any question that doesn't seem to praise Blizzard for this outstanding game, will be coined 'negative. ' If you only want to live in a world where the sun suppose to shine 24/7, rain is 'negative.' If you call rain negative because you always want cloudless sunny days, you might want to rethink.
So before you state 'negativity' first define the word. On this forum the two get confused all the time. Has to do with the types commenting here. Give it a try.
There's nothing wrong with 4. Tendency though to morph into 2. The problems arise with 1-3. They have a favorite villain: 5. Type 5 comments are unjustly accused to be negative while they seem to be critical for improvements sake. But 1-3 are the most annoying commentators at times. If they clash, on a bad day, it morphs into 6. Time to close the thread then. 4 tries to be the gentleman looking for upvotes. The been there, done that attitude.
A civilized 4 and 5 seem to be the ideal 'matchup. '
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
We (the people usually labeled as "haters") are not negative, we are just being realistic, big difference. ;) If many people here don't like to see the reality and just defend Bl$$ard blindly because they think some day they will be hired by this company for doing so (yeah, I know it sounds silly as hell, but that seems to be the case... XD), it's not our problem...
I totally agree. Blizzard fun Childs are what are ruining the community.
Yes, but there is a difference between using your rights to disagree and form intellectual conversation and just outright being rude or engaging in harassment. I'm trying to say that we need to hold each other to a certain standard of decency. A lot of modern game designers are skimping on this because they are afraid to fight back a little against the internet. Perfect example here- what I highlighted in your response to my post. It may have just been a joke/sarcastic, and don't worry I'm not hurt over it, but you outright name-called me. It simply didn't need to be included in your response but you still did it anyway. Everything you wrote after in response to me was thought-out and part of the discussion. OP's topic is about what creates or enables a negative community. Unfortunately, whether serious or not, you partook in the very behavior that OP is putting into question. You could have just argued against the nature of the community, maybe used some of those other threads as a key in your argument, but instead you just ran OP and me down in a response that is less a discussion and more a straight insult.
Might be best to not bring up the topic of Free Speech. That concept really doesn't apply to a private forum in the way that many want to run it.
Forums are under the whim of their owners and the community. Any speech not acceptable by both will face repercussion. For example, I am NOT allowed to make a 100% salt post without the community and the mods descending on me (to note: a concept which is a BIG reason why I set up roots here.)
In fact, no private forum that I know of offers anything close to true Free Speech. Even the 'dreaded' /b limits your speech to what they deem as accepted. You CAN be banned from there. Even if you aren't, if you harass their way of life the community WILL turn against you.
Free Speech is NOT a concept that works outside of a governmental limitation (i.e. US' First Amendment). Even evoking it is simply folly. Your speech will always be limited with the risk of repercussions in any other format.
Which is also why it's rather silly to talk about how a community of people who actively participate in an activity will quickly drown out negativity about that activity. Most who no longer like the game leave. It's less 'a mass of fanboys' as it is yelling in a football stadium about how much football sucks then wondering why so many people there don't agree with you. Especially if you turn to negative terms towards said community.
Fact is, joining a community means you accept the community's standards and limitations. That includes actual rules explicitly placed and the community made implicit agreements. You have no rights to expect anything you do or say that is not accepted in both ways to be accepted without blow back. This does not automatically mean that disagreement cannot exist, but, to put it in one way the only audience you have is the community of 'fanboys'. Respect that and phrase your words accordingly.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Ok ok ok, i admit that you are right. Even though my original post was only a banter/ sassy jokes, it could be more respectful and constructive. I understand what you are trying to say and the way you express your opinion is admirable, i have to admit, buuuut... this is a game forum.
I am a playful/douchy/sarcastic person by nature and the fact that i have to be 100% professional in my line of work, makes it nearly impossible to stay 100% constructive and serious in my free time too.Especially in a game forum. I admit that direct insults are way to much even here, but sassy bashing is fair game imo :p. You are free to disagree and technically you are right, but life is way to harsh to take it seriously all the time. So as you understood i meant no real offence neither towards you or op but i will glady banter with you and op (or anyone for that matter) in the future too if i have the chance. And of course you are free to to do the same. :p
So ... everyone who disagrees with you is insane?
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Negative people lol
A negative community isn't a community that complains about the game. Complaining about the game is just a normal way to talk about it.
A negative community is one in which people make personal attacks and try to police others' opinions.
What? "Insane"? Stop putting words in my mouth I didn't say, dude.
There is probably a lot of psychology studies out there about this but the general consensus I have seen is the whole vocal minority thing plus anonymity of the internet combined equals loud obnoxious angry people saying all sorts of mean shit. Plus in text you lack nuance so opinions tend to be either interpreted or presented in much more extremes than normal. This isn't unique to Heartstone it is pretty universal. There are so many threads in magic the gathering forums about it being a dead game or dying or being otherwise terrible for every imaginable reason. Oh yeah and confirmation bias and negative bias are very hard things to overcome and very common for people to fall victim to.
Well, somebody's crazy if you honestly believe every non-hater is hoping to get hired by Blizzard.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
"Every non-hater"? LOL, I'm talking only about fanboys, my dear FortyDust. :)