With how many lackey cards there are, I’m having a hard time seeing there being enough lackeys to make Togwaggle consistently be able to trigger his effect, as Rogue can only fit a total of four lackey-producing cards in a deck. Though that may be, the power level of Togwaggle could make it worth it to hold onto a lackey until he’s drawn, so perhaps the inconsistency would be worth it. I could very well be underestimating him, but I feel like we’ll need another expansion of lackey support before he is really good and Lackey Rogue becomes a thing. Thoughts?
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
The odds of pulling both legendary cards by turn 6 is tiny. Even if you draw like mad, you'll probably be at 15 cards left in deck by turn 6, which gives you a 1/4 chance of having drawn both Nomi and MUE. It'll work a quarter of the time, and that's an optimistic guess. It's more likely you'll be at 18 or so, in which case you'll have a 15% chance of having the combo.
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
I could see Myra/Nomi being a last-ditch finisher in tempo rogue that might occasionally cheese some wins, but nothing super crazy.
myra's nomi is bad. tempo rogue already wins if it draws myras. The games where it doesn't are a lot worse if you run a 7mana 6/6
What if you don't win after Myra's? Nomi(especially if shadowstepped) will just win you right there and then. My calculations put Nomi rogue at 80% winrate vs. control at the cost of just one dead card vs. aggro...
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
The odds of pulling both legendary cards by turn 6 is tiny. Even if you draw like mad, you'll probably be at 15 cards left in deck by turn 6, which gives you a 1/4 chance of having drawn both Nomi and MUE. It'll work a quarter of the time, and that's an optimistic guess. It's more likely you'll be at 18 or so, in which case you'll have a 15% chance of having the combo.
You don't need to draw both, you just need to draw Myra's then play it which will then draw Nomi for you. Sure there's a small chance Myra's burns your Nomi, but you have Archivist as a plan B to both avoid fatigue and outvalue your opponent over several turns.
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
I could see Myra/Nomi being a last-ditch finisher in tempo rogue that might occasionally cheese some wins, but nothing super crazy.
I have done the math a hundred times and concluded Nomi rogue will push control decks out of the meta just like quest rogue did. Aggro decks will just need to win by turn 7. There will be many, many games where Myra's into Nomi autowins you turn 7 if you haven't rushed down your opponent by then.
myra's nomi is bad. tempo rogue already wins if it draws myras. The games where it doesn't are a lot worse if you run a 7mana 6/6
What if you don't win after Myra's? Nomi(especially if shadowstepped) will just win you right there and then. My calculations put Nomi rogue at 80% winrate vs. control at the cost of just one dead card vs. aggro...
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
The odds of pulling both legendary cards by turn 6 is tiny. Even if you draw like mad, you'll probably be at 15 cards left in deck by turn 6, which gives you a 1/4 chance of having drawn both Nomi and MUE. It'll work a quarter of the time, and that's an optimistic guess. It's more likely you'll be at 18 or so, in which case you'll have a 15% chance of having the combo.
You don't need to draw both, you just need to draw Myra's then play it which will then draw Nomi for you. Sure there's a small chance Myra's burns your Nomi, but you have Archivist as a plan B to both avoid fatigue and outvalue your opponent over several turns.
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
I could see Myra/Nomi being a last-ditch finisher in tempo rogue that might occasionally cheese some wins, but nothing super crazy.
I have done the math a hundred times and concluded Nomi rogue will push control decks out of the meta just like quest rogue did. Aggro decks will just need to win by turn 7. There will be many, many games where Myra's into Nomi autowins you turn 7 if you haven't rushed down your opponent by then.
The chance of burning nomi is 50% on turn 5. By turn 7 most control decks will have a clear.
Getting back to the OPs intent of this thread... I personally dont see lackeys being the issue with tog. I feel rogue is going to be slower now that minstrel is rotating out, huge hit imo.
The question becomes how do you build your deck around tog. Do we use him as an added win condition in a tempo/battlecry deck? Do we use him in some sort of control value deck? Rogue just lost all secrets so control isnt looking great. Time will tell how it works out but I dont see him being broken right now
Getting back to the OPs intent of this thread... I personally dont see lackeys being the issue with tog. I feel rogue is going to be slower now that minstrel is rotating out, huge hit imo.
The question becomes how do you build your deck around tog. Do we use him as an added win condition in a tempo/battlecry deck? Do we use him in some sort of control value deck? Rogue just lost all secrets so control isnt looking great. Time will tell how it works out but I dont see him being broken right now
I hadn’t considered the issue of losing Minstrel, I guess it will be between Myra’s, Sprint, and Auctioneer for now. I feel like Tog’s Scheme and the other rogue legendary are going to be key for hand refill personally, but this is coming from someone intent on making Pogo Rogue work.
The question becomes how do you build your deck around tog. Do we use him as an added win condition in a tempo/battlecry deck? Do we use him in some sort of control value deck?
I believe the most successful approach will be to stick Togg and the 4 lackeys in a straightforward tempo deck, and we can only hope it's not the same deck as Hooktusk. However I theorycrafted a cheesy build whose sole focus is to repeatedly play Heistbaron Toggwaggle. Probably loses to aggro but should be able to destroy control. https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1246718-infinite-toggwaggle-rogue-theorycraft
The question becomes how do you build your deck around tog. Do we use him as an added win condition in a tempo/battlecry deck? Do we use him in some sort of control value deck?
I believe the most successful approach will be to stick Togg and the 4 lackeys in a straightforward tempo deck, and we can only hope it's not the same deck as Hooktusk. However I theorycrafted a cheesy build whose sole focus is to repeatedly play Heistbaron Toggwaggle. Probably loses to aggro but should be able to destroy control.
I think this is the correct train of thought. I might be overrating the card a bit, but I feel like Tog's Scheme alone is enough to outvalue most control decks, especially in conjunction with Tak. While my deck is mostly relying on pogos to win, in this case if Tog ever sticks and you have the scheme plus Tak, you basically just win. Or at least you would, but infinite Togs doesn't work too well when you only have a four activators for it, so you'll have to bounce the lackies back quite a few times as well.
I'm determined to make a Togwaggle Maly rogue work, even if its T4 it should be really fun!
Had a first stab (badum-tsh) at it last night while I was tired. Definitely some optimisation and play testing required!
That actually looks pretty cool. I think Auctioneer would fit pretty well (possibly replacing Myra's but idk). Neat take on capitalizing on Tog though, I love how flexible he is.
With 4 lackey generators you are very likely to have a lackey before you draw Togwaggle, I don't see what's wrong ?
By the time you get to turn 7, the odds of having drawn a lackey card are close to 100%.
Yoi should worry about the consistency of drawing Togwaggle, not the lackeys lol.
Though that may be, the power level of Togwaggle could make it worth it to hold onto a lackey until he’s drawn
What do you mean worth it ? Why would you ever play Togwaggle if you don't intend to hold onto a lackey? It's not about the power level. It's about the text explicitly saying that the card does nothing of you don't combo it with a lackey...
With 4 lackey generators you are very likely to have a lackey before you draw Togwaggle, I don't see what's wrong ?
By the time you get to turn 7, the odds of having drawn a lackey card are close to 100%.
Yoi should worry about the consistency of drawing Togwaggle, not the lackeys lol.
Though that may be, the power level of Togwaggle could make it worth it to hold onto a lackey until he’s drawn
What do you mean worth it ? Why would you ever play Togwaggle if you don't intend to hold onto a lackey? It's not about the power level. It's about the text explicitly saying that the card does nothing of you don't combo it with a lackey...
I mean, yes, but the lackeys themselves are pretty useful for maintaining tempo, especially given how much you sacrifice to get them given that you’re playing a 3 mana 1/5 or a 2 mana 1/1 to get them, so you might not be able to afford to keep them in hand depending on the meta. I’m going into this assuming that you are going to have to use at least some of your lackeys before turn 7.
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With how many lackey cards there are, I’m having a hard time seeing there being enough lackeys to make Togwaggle consistently be able to trigger his effect, as Rogue can only fit a total of four lackey-producing cards in a deck. Though that may be, the power level of Togwaggle could make it worth it to hold onto a lackey until he’s drawn, so perhaps the inconsistency would be worth it. I could very well be underestimating him, but I feel like we’ll need another expansion of lackey support before he is really good and Lackey Rogue becomes a thing. Thoughts?
Rogues will just run Nomi+Myra's and win games on turn 7 thanks to Nomi filling board with 6/6s. This will be a tier 0 rogue deck till it gets nerfed a few weeks later.
No.
myra's nomi is bad. tempo rogue already wins if it draws myras. The games where it doesn't are a lot worse if you run a 7mana 6/6
The odds of pulling both legendary cards by turn 6 is tiny. Even if you draw like mad, you'll probably be at 15 cards left in deck by turn 6, which gives you a 1/4 chance of having drawn both Nomi and MUE. It'll work a quarter of the time, and that's an optimistic guess. It's more likely you'll be at 18 or so, in which case you'll have a 15% chance of having the combo.
I could see Myra/Nomi being a last-ditch finisher in tempo rogue that might occasionally cheese some wins, but nothing super crazy.
What if you don't win after Myra's? Nomi(especially if shadowstepped) will just win you right there and then. My calculations put Nomi rogue at 80% winrate vs. control at the cost of just one dead card vs. aggro...
You don't need to draw both, you just need to draw Myra's then play it which will then draw Nomi for you. Sure there's a small chance Myra's burns your Nomi, but you have Archivist as a plan B to both avoid fatigue and outvalue your opponent over several turns.
I have done the math a hundred times and concluded Nomi rogue will push control decks out of the meta just like quest rogue did. Aggro decks will just need to win by turn 7. There will be many, many games where Myra's into Nomi autowins you turn 7 if you haven't rushed down your opponent by then.
The chance of burning nomi is 50% on turn 5. By turn 7 most control decks will have a clear.
Getting back to the OPs intent of this thread... I personally dont see lackeys being the issue with tog. I feel rogue is going to be slower now that minstrel is rotating out, huge hit imo.
The question becomes how do you build your deck around tog. Do we use him as an added win condition in a tempo/battlecry deck? Do we use him in some sort of control value deck? Rogue just lost all secrets so control isnt looking great. Time will tell how it works out but I dont see him being broken right now
I hadn’t considered the issue of losing Minstrel, I guess it will be between Myra’s, Sprint, and Auctioneer for now. I feel like Tog’s Scheme and the other rogue legendary are going to be key for hand refill personally, but this is coming from someone intent on making Pogo Rogue work.
I believe the most successful approach will be to stick Togg and the 4 lackeys in a straightforward tempo deck, and we can only hope it's not the same deck as Hooktusk. However I theorycrafted a cheesy build whose sole focus is to repeatedly play Heistbaron Toggwaggle. Probably loses to aggro but should be able to destroy control. https://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1246718-infinite-toggwaggle-rogue-theorycraft
I think this is the correct train of thought. I might be overrating the card a bit, but I feel like Tog's Scheme alone is enough to outvalue most control decks, especially in conjunction with Tak. While my deck is mostly relying on pogos to win, in this case if Tog ever sticks and you have the scheme plus Tak, you basically just win. Or at least you would, but infinite Togs doesn't work too well when you only have a four activators for it, so you'll have to bounce the lackies back quite a few times as well.
I'm determined to make a Togwaggle Maly rogue work, even if its T4 it should be really fun!
Had a first stab (badum-tsh) at it last night while I was tired. Definitely some optimisation and play testing required!
That actually looks pretty cool. I think Auctioneer would fit pretty well (possibly replacing Myra's but idk). Neat take on capitalizing on Tog though, I love how flexible he is.
With 4 lackey generators you are very likely to have a lackey before you draw Togwaggle, I don't see what's wrong ?
By the time you get to turn 7, the odds of having drawn a lackey card are close to 100%.
Yoi should worry about the consistency of drawing Togwaggle, not the lackeys lol.
What do you mean worth it ? Why would you ever play Togwaggle if you don't intend to hold onto a lackey? It's not about the power level. It's about the text explicitly saying that the card does nothing of you don't combo it with a lackey...
I mean, yes, but the lackeys themselves are pretty useful for maintaining tempo, especially given how much you sacrifice to get them given that you’re playing a 3 mana 1/5 or a 2 mana 1/1 to get them, so you might not be able to afford to keep them in hand depending on the meta. I’m going into this assuming that you are going to have to use at least some of your lackeys before turn 7.