so yea why is this one card still over looked in wild on a continual basis. I’m perfectly fine with big priest don’t get me wrong. But to allow a turn 4 big minion to drop from Barnes and then inst. resummon it over and over after is a bit much.
Mom fine with a turn 5 or 6 atleast then you have time to build a board or something. But turn 4 (or 3 if they have coin) shouldn’t be allowed. An easy fix would be to not allow them to resummon the minion barns summons.
And yes I know this only refers to wild, but wild is just a part of this game as standard and this has been an ok going issue for wild that team 5 refuses to address. But they will makes fixes to sea witch for those warlock decks playing giants, but won’t fix Barnes.
Why most of wild players are so salty of Barnes? I’m not a big priest player, but I think if blizzard will decide to fix Barnes they also need to fix voidcaller and molten giants both allows the same swing turns. But no one is complaining about cubelock turn 3 demon sense into turn 4 caller pact or pally turn 3 Thekal. And in game mode there such turns is not even considered a problem it’s fine to have card like Barnes
P.S. you can easily tech your deck agains priest ressumoning mechanic, so just please if you are writing about nerfs in wild alongside Barnes remind blizzard about thing from bellow, Kingsbane, voidcaller,Kabal crystal runner, potion of madness and lots of other cards that allows unfair swing turns
In my opinion it isn't quite the same thing. For Barnes to work you don't need any other cards. With Thekal you need one (or two) giants in your hand so that probability is already lower. In case of a thing from below, your opponent needed to create several totems and we all know how they can win you a game...
The problem isn't just one swing turn, a swing turn is fine in a game like this. The problem is you can have several in a row or multiple in the same game.
I do not think that the biggest issue with Barnes is the swingturn itself. It is the fact that once they hit their Ragnaros, Y'Shaarj, or whatever, they will be able to revive it over and over again early in the game and THAT is the problem. It is the combination of an early super-powered minion - let us face it, a mountain giant on t4 is way less powerfull than a Y'Shaarj at t4 - together with the possibility of reviving it over and over again. And yes, you can tech against resummoning effects sure, but then you have to run a deck full of techs against other classes, which kind of ruins the fun experience of deck-building (sometimes). The other cards you mention to proof your point, I cannot agree with, they are not on the same powerlevel as Barnes (a card which everyone complained about when it was in standard by the way), and unless Mage can reproduce Crystal Runners over and over and over again, they do not represent the same problem as Barnes does. I think your counter-argument is flawed, Barnes' problem is not its immediate powerlevel, it is its powerlevel combined with Priest resurrect cards. A deck's powerlevel should not be assessed by the possibility of teching against it, it should be valued on its own terms and how its games are played out.
Most likely that Barneswill get nerf to 5 or 6 cost mana. The issue with him is the speed of summoning huge powerful minion. Also, he is a neutral card. Blizzard can't just nerf him to the ground cos of just Big Priest.
There are many decks that utilize him for being neutral such Rogues, Hunter, Druid and even Shaman. Sure those decks are not commonly seen but they are there and are decently playable.
Big Priest without Barnes can still function. So, Barneswill probably see a mana nerf. All those ideas of actor tokens or what not are too drastic and some even Warsong-ed him. A simple mana nerf is all that is needed.
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Why most of wild players are so salty of Barnes? I’m not a big priest player, but I think if blizzard will decide to fix Barnes they also need to fix voidcaller and molten giants both allows the same swing turns. But no one is complaining about cubelock turn 3 demon sense into turn 4 caller pact or pally turn 3 Thekal. And in game mode there such turns is not even considered a problem it’s fine to have card like Barnes
P.S. you can easily tech your deck agains priest ressumoning mechanic, so just please if you are writing about nerfs in wild alongside Barnes remind blizzard about thing from bellow, Kingsbane, voidcaller,Kabal crystal runner, potion of madness and lots of other cards that allows unfair swing turns
Fair enough point but I'd argue that Barnes on 4 practically wins you the game and is in a lot of ways uncounterable. Granted voidcaller can do some crazy stuff but it's at least a 2 card combo that requires a 3rd in hand to get the effect and you can just silence or devolve it if it even pulls the right minions. The problem with Barnes isn't that it is just a huge swing turn like the others lifted above but the effect is persistent in the sense that you can infinitely res minions starting the following turn.
Are the others plays you mentioned insane tempo plays, yes. But they require multiple cards, thus limiting their frequency and the effects of those plays don't directly fuel the rest of your deck to perform optimally.
The problem is the power level of this swing turns, and turn 4 Barnes is just a 4/5 with some effect (if Barnes didn’t summon yshaarj) and still you need a res card for future swing turns. Also my point wasn’t just to say that there are other turns of the some power level but also to say that after Barnes nerf the cards above will meet the same hatred of players Barnes is facing now, and also it just won’t be honest to nerf only Barnes, players who injoy playing big decks (not only priest plays Barnes btw) will feel left behind
The problem with Barnes , is the fact that getting him on turn 4 is pretty much an auto win, whereas Voidcaller on turn 4 does absolutely nothing, you still need a demon in your hand for him. And don't forget that Barnes is a neutral card, every class can use him to get Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound and cheat out a free win, we saw that in hunter already, and it may happen again with paladin thanks to Call to Adventure . Big Priest players feeling left behind? Not really since they are getting so much love this expansion, that the Barnes nerf is necessary.
Big priest in wild is very frustrating and it is what like now is ruining wild and the reasons are these:
1) Big priest has the strongest turns 6/7/8/9 in the game (and 4 and 5 if he had Barnes)
2) Due to this people are forced to play aggro in order to kill big priest before these turns
3) Wild in composed then mainly but heavy aggros, due to this a lot of decks are not practically permitted
4) Big priest is very very hard to manage even for big controls
5) Big priest is very frustrating to play against because when you receive always board clears and then a 4/8 taunt and life steal is not fun at all
6) It is a lot that this deck is played and there are many of them so time and frequency are others two frustrating factors
7) Big priest is probably what shaped more the meta in wild forcing a lot of people in aggro and closing the opportunity to any midrange deck. No midrange deck has any possibility against the value generated by big priest
8) Big priest is even more frustrating when you receive a turn 4 Barnes
9) Turn 4 Barnes may win a game in only one turn
These are the reasons why Team 5 should, in my opinion, insta nerf Big Priest, and not only in Barnes but also in other cards. This deck is wrong, it is shaping the meta and ruining wild.
Barnes - 4 mana 3/4: Battlecry: Summon a 1/1 Puppet. Give it the text of a random minion in your deck.
This allows to abuse the card in decks with big minions such as Rag, but removes the summoned minion from rez pool, replacing it witg just a 1/1 token.
Not big priest players would feel leftied but players who are playing big rogue, Maly shaman, and some other decks which includes Barnes, yeah I agree that Barnes into yshaarj is a dull win condition, but in this case we need to change the way ysaarj and res cards works, because cheating out a 1/1 on turn 4 is not a big deal, if it is not an yshaarj or you don’t have res cards in hand.
But in my opinion, no problem with Barnes at all, big priest is winnable with Barnes at turn 4, different decks have an answers to it even without thrash tier counter cards
It is the problem of broken Aggro strategies, a problem of kingsbane rogues infinite weapon, Murlock paladin otk, and agro mages possibility to build a huge board on turn 4-5 and prevent an aoe with Counterspell, a problem of dragon iner fire priest otk you on turn 3 with 28/28 elemental, without big priest this decks won’t disappear
It is the problem of broken Aggro strategies, a problem of kingsbane rogues infinite weapon, Murlock paladin otk, and agro mages possibility to build a huge board on turn 4-5 and prevent an aoe with Counterspell, a problem of dragon iner fire priest otk you on turn 3 with 28/28 elemental, without big priest this decks won’t disappear
All the decks you mentioning have counters.
Kingsbane Rogue (inconsistent by definition, sometimes he lose because without weapon, Geist, weapon destroy are counters, aggro are counters)
Murloc pala (taunts, can be controlled and tokens)
Aggro mage (Heals, can be controlled and tokens)
Inner Fire priest (It is easy to spot then when he plays minions with big bodies, so you have to not allow him to have big bodies minions on board and Geist)
Big priest (only counter is to kill him very very fast. So to use aggro, heavy aggros to kill him fast, it can be also counter by fancy decks like Mill rogue that are tier shit because totally destroyed by every aggro) So it is what is shaping the meta in heavy aggros.
Only if you kill big priest you can have midrange decks in wild.
I can't believe this obnoxious deck has lasted this long...
I think the main problem is the way the graveyard mechanics work. If a 1/1 was summoned and killed then it should go into the graveyard as a 1/1 and if it gets resurrected then it's a 1/1. Would make little difference to decks like that use Malygos, deathrattles etc. but you don't have the problem of a massive body at turn 5 (and 6 and 7).
I actually think the reason Barnes hasn't been nerfed is because Big priest is a good deck but not great and he's not really used in any other decks at the moment. It's super frustrating but I'd argue 30% of all games in wild are. If you don't Mulligan or draw well in wild you get run over more often than not and yes turn 3/4 Barnes often means a loss but if you play big priest you see it's a frustrating deck to play too because the beautiful hearthstone matchmaking system will pit you against 80% aggro decks (possible slight exaggeration)
I played a dragon priest deck last season and managed better than a 60% win rate Vs big priest and finished around 300 and I'd argue other decks are more frustrating to play against as they are consistently better decks.
I see posts that everyone is calling out, come to the wild people it's so much more fun, and then I see every 2 days a Barnes' thread and I tell myself, stay to the Standard, no matter how dull and boring will feel until the rotation
Big priest can be out valued by odd war, it is also weak against otk decks, the only win condition is early rag, you can also tech your deck with some cards like tinkmaster overspark, who is ok against other decks of the meta, btw, big priest is not a deck that provides you a stable win, an at high ranks I personally didn’t meet a single big priest last season
The original problem is indeed how the copy/graveyard system is handled.
Since i doubt they plan to correct the whole mechanic (but they should), the problem shifts to cards and their synergies.
The removal/stall arsenal of Priest is already insane, and grows stronger every year.
The old Resurrection cards are extremely efficient.
The summoning cards (Barnes but also Shadow Essence) come incredibly early (also considering the removal arsenal).
Crucially, without summons, Resurrection is useless, however efficient.
So nerfing the summoners package, possibly hard, will fix the deck forever, and let REAL Priests emerge in the Wild meta (and they do have a couple of solid meta decks already).
Given the arsenal again, nerfing only Barnes could be insufficient on the long run.
But i repeat, the original problem is the silly graveyard system of HS.
Voidcaller is also problematic, eg it shatters the rules of the Mana Curve as much as Big Priest, but it is DR, and requires further synergy with Hand. Surely Warlock can consistently fix that...
_____
But indeed, breaking the limitations of the Mana Curve (before t10) is the largest part of why Wild feels broken, instead of just very powerful.
so yea why is this one card still over looked in wild on a continual basis. I’m perfectly fine with big priest don’t get me wrong. But to allow a turn 4 big minion to drop from Barnes and then inst. resummon it over and over after is a bit much.
Mom fine with a turn 5 or 6 atleast then you have time to build a board or something. But turn 4 (or 3 if they have coin) shouldn’t be allowed. An easy fix would be to not allow them to resummon the minion barns summons.
And yes I know this only refers to wild, but wild is just a part of this game as standard and this has been an ok going issue for wild that team 5 refuses to address. But they will makes fixes to sea witch for those warlock decks playing giants, but won’t fix Barnes.
Why most of wild players are so salty of Barnes? I’m not a big priest player, but I think if blizzard will decide to fix Barnes they also need to fix voidcaller and molten giants both allows the same swing turns. But no one is complaining about cubelock turn 3 demon sense into turn 4 caller pact or pally turn 3 Thekal. And in game mode there such turns is not even considered a problem it’s fine to have card like Barnes
P.S. you can easily tech your deck agains priest ressumoning mechanic, so just please if you are writing about nerfs in wild alongside Barnes remind blizzard about thing from bellow, Kingsbane, voidcaller,Kabal crystal runner, potion of madness and lots of other cards that allows unfair swing turns
In my opinion it isn't quite the same thing. For Barnes to work you don't need any other cards. With Thekal you need one (or two) giants in your hand so that probability is already lower. In case of a thing from below, your opponent needed to create several totems and we all know how they can win you a game...
The problem isn't just one swing turn, a swing turn is fine in a game like this. The problem is you can have several in a row or multiple in the same game.
I do not think that the biggest issue with Barnes is the swingturn itself. It is the fact that once they hit their Ragnaros, Y'Shaarj, or whatever, they will be able to revive it over and over again early in the game and THAT is the problem. It is the combination of an early super-powered minion - let us face it, a mountain giant on t4 is way less powerfull than a Y'Shaarj at t4 - together with the possibility of reviving it over and over again. And yes, you can tech against resummoning effects sure, but then you have to run a deck full of techs against other classes, which kind of ruins the fun experience of deck-building (sometimes). The other cards you mention to proof your point, I cannot agree with, they are not on the same powerlevel as Barnes (a card which everyone complained about when it was in standard by the way), and unless Mage can reproduce Crystal Runners over and over and over again, they do not represent the same problem as Barnes does. I think your counter-argument is flawed, Barnes' problem is not its immediate powerlevel, it is its powerlevel combined with Priest resurrect cards. A deck's powerlevel should not be assessed by the possibility of teching against it, it should be valued on its own terms and how its games are played out.
Most likely that Barneswill get nerf to 5 or 6 cost mana. The issue with him is the speed of summoning huge powerful minion. Also, he is a neutral card. Blizzard can't just nerf him to the ground cos of just Big Priest.
There are many decks that utilize him for being neutral such Rogues, Hunter, Druid and even Shaman. Sure those decks are not commonly seen but they are there and are decently playable.
Big Priest without Barnes can still function. So, Barneswill probably see a mana nerf. All those ideas of actor tokens or what not are too drastic and some even Warsong-ed him. A simple mana nerf is all that is needed.
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Fair enough point but I'd argue that Barnes on 4 practically wins you the game and is in a lot of ways uncounterable. Granted voidcaller can do some crazy stuff but it's at least a 2 card combo that requires a 3rd in hand to get the effect and you can just silence or devolve it if it even pulls the right minions. The problem with Barnes isn't that it is just a huge swing turn like the others lifted above but the effect is persistent in the sense that you can infinitely res minions starting the following turn.
Are the others plays you mentioned insane tempo plays, yes. But they require multiple cards, thus limiting their frequency and the effects of those plays don't directly fuel the rest of your deck to perform optimally.
The problem is the power level of this swing turns, and turn 4 Barnes is just a 4/5 with some effect (if Barnes didn’t summon yshaarj) and still you need a res card for future swing turns. Also my point wasn’t just to say that there are other turns of the some power level but also to say that after Barnes nerf the cards above will meet the same hatred of players Barnes is facing now, and also it just won’t be honest to nerf only Barnes, players who injoy playing big decks (not only priest plays Barnes btw) will feel left behind
The problem with Barnes , is the fact that getting him on turn 4 is pretty much an auto win, whereas Voidcaller on turn 4 does absolutely nothing, you still need a demon in your hand for him. And don't forget that Barnes is a neutral card, every class can use him to get Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound and cheat out a free win, we saw that in hunter already, and it may happen again with paladin thanks to Call to Adventure . Big Priest players feeling left behind? Not really since they are getting so much love this expansion, that the Barnes nerf is necessary.
Praise Malygos
Big priest in wild is very frustrating and it is what like now is ruining wild and the reasons are these:
1) Big priest has the strongest turns 6/7/8/9 in the game (and 4 and 5 if he had Barnes)
2) Due to this people are forced to play aggro in order to kill big priest before these turns
3) Wild in composed then mainly but heavy aggros, due to this a lot of decks are not practically permitted
4) Big priest is very very hard to manage even for big controls
5) Big priest is very frustrating to play against because when you receive always board clears and then a 4/8 taunt and life steal is not fun at all
6) It is a lot that this deck is played and there are many of them so time and frequency are others two frustrating factors
7) Big priest is probably what shaped more the meta in wild forcing a lot of people in aggro and closing the opportunity to any midrange deck. No midrange deck has any possibility against the value generated by big priest
8) Big priest is even more frustrating when you receive a turn 4 Barnes
9) Turn 4 Barnes may win a game in only one turn
These are the reasons why Team 5 should, in my opinion, insta nerf Big Priest, and not only in Barnes but also in other cards. This deck is wrong, it is shaping the meta and ruining wild.
Stop the Barnes hate man. Salty kids.
You stop salty kid
The fix is pretty simple:
Barnes - 4 mana 3/4: Battlecry: Summon a 1/1 Puppet. Give it the text of a random minion in your deck.
This allows to abuse the card in decks with big minions such as Rag, but removes the summoned minion from rez pool, replacing it witg just a 1/1 token.
Not big priest players would feel leftied but players who are playing big rogue, Maly shaman, and some other decks which includes Barnes, yeah I agree that Barnes into yshaarj is a dull win condition, but in this case we need to change the way ysaarj and res cards works, because cheating out a 1/1 on turn 4 is not a big deal, if it is not an yshaarj or you don’t have res cards in hand.
But in my opinion, no problem with Barnes at all, big priest is winnable with Barnes at turn 4, different decks have an answers to it even without thrash tier counter cards
It is the problem of broken Aggro strategies, a problem of kingsbane rogues infinite weapon, Murlock paladin otk, and agro mages possibility to build a huge board on turn 4-5 and prevent an aoe with Counterspell, a problem of dragon iner fire priest otk you on turn 3 with 28/28 elemental, without big priest this decks won’t disappear
All the decks you mentioning have counters.
Kingsbane Rogue (inconsistent by definition, sometimes he lose because without weapon, Geist, weapon destroy are counters, aggro are counters)
Murloc pala (taunts, can be controlled and tokens)
Aggro mage (Heals, can be controlled and tokens)
Inner Fire priest (It is easy to spot then when he plays minions with big bodies, so you have to not allow him to have big bodies minions on board and Geist)
Big priest (only counter is to kill him very very fast. So to use aggro, heavy aggros to kill him fast, it can be also counter by fancy decks like Mill rogue that are tier shit because totally destroyed by every aggro) So it is what is shaping the meta in heavy aggros.
Only if you kill big priest you can have midrange decks in wild.
I can't believe this obnoxious deck has lasted this long...
I think the main problem is the way the graveyard mechanics work. If a 1/1 was summoned and killed then it should go into the graveyard as a 1/1 and if it gets resurrected then it's a 1/1. Would make little difference to decks like that use Malygos, deathrattles etc. but you don't have the problem of a massive body at turn 5 (and 6 and 7).
I actually think the reason Barnes hasn't been nerfed is because Big priest is a good deck but not great and he's not really used in any other decks at the moment. It's super frustrating but I'd argue 30% of all games in wild are. If you don't Mulligan or draw well in wild you get run over more often than not and yes turn 3/4 Barnes often means a loss but if you play big priest you see it's a frustrating deck to play too because the beautiful hearthstone matchmaking system will pit you against 80% aggro decks (possible slight exaggeration)
I played a dragon priest deck last season and managed better than a 60% win rate Vs big priest and finished around 300 and I'd argue other decks are more frustrating to play against as they are consistently better decks.
I see posts that everyone is calling out, come to the wild people it's so much more fun, and then I see every 2 days a Barnes' thread and I tell myself, stay to the Standard, no matter how dull and boring will feel until the rotation
Big priest can be out valued by odd war, it is also weak against otk decks, the only win condition is early rag, you can also tech your deck with some cards like tinkmaster overspark, who is ok against other decks of the meta, btw, big priest is not a deck that provides you a stable win, an at high ranks I personally didn’t meet a single big priest last season
The original problem is indeed how the copy/graveyard system is handled.
Since i doubt they plan to correct the whole mechanic (but they should), the problem shifts to cards and their synergies.
The removal/stall arsenal of Priest is already insane, and grows stronger every year.
The old Resurrection cards are extremely efficient.
The summoning cards (Barnes but also Shadow Essence) come incredibly early (also considering the removal arsenal).
Crucially, without summons, Resurrection is useless, however efficient.
So nerfing the summoners package, possibly hard, will fix the deck forever, and let REAL Priests emerge in the Wild meta (and they do have a couple of solid meta decks already).
Given the arsenal again, nerfing only Barnes could be insufficient on the long run.
But i repeat, the original problem is the silly graveyard system of HS.
Voidcaller is also problematic, eg it shatters the rules of the Mana Curve as much as Big Priest, but it is DR, and requires further synergy with Hand. Surely Warlock can consistently fix that...
_____
But indeed, breaking the limitations of the Mana Curve (before t10) is the largest part of why Wild feels broken, instead of just very powerful.