Addressing Schyla's comment on the Blizzard's forums -
"Hearthstone is too heavy on the RNG side to be of any significance in Esports. Yes, some skill is required and helps, but RNG is too prevalent right now.
This is extremely obvious in that these tournaments always end up with a new set of faces. If skill outweighed RNG, you would see more consistency in the players but you don't.
Look at the tournament choose your champion right now. None of those players are familiar at all."
I'd like to talk about these comments. First, consider that the RNG of Hearthstone is mostly based on the draw. Decks that draw one card a turn are very susceptible to bad draws. Warlocks and combo decks that draw multiple cards a turn are much more consistent and less susceptible to bad draws. This is why Even Warlock is so popular among pros, despite being a rather mediocre deck otherwise.
There isn't much RNG in Hearthstone beyond that which is also present in all other draw-based card games. But there are other reasons for competitive player turnover. Ike mentioned recently that having taken a two week break from Hearthstone, Muzzy was trounced in a tournament, going 1-6. Compare this to Lebron James taking a two week break from basketball (as due to injury) - besides a slight bit of rust and aging and any bodily problems caused by the injury itself, there's no other loss of performance for James upon his return. So what's the difference between basketball and Hearthstone?
Simple - the *game* of Hearthstone changes constantly. Not only the meta, which changes slightly on a minute-by-minute basis, but new cards are introduced into the game every 4 months, cards are removed every 12 months, and nerfs happen every couple months.
When James returns from injury he's returning to the same game. There is actually a meta within basketball but it changes VERY slowly relative to Hearthstone, such as the modern meta of the dominance of 3-point shooting.
What this means is that Hearthstone players need to constantly react to the constantly changing meta, learning an enormous amount of new information on a continual basis. Basketball players do not. Once a player becomes good at basketball, he'll *always* be good at basketball until injuries and age take their toll. Muzzy takes 2 weeks off from Hearthstone and suffers a considerable degradation of his skill.
As such, being a Hearthstone player is enormously stressful and difficult relative to being a basketball player, or a player of any sport or game with a stable meta. This stress, difficulty, and need to be constantly vigilant and working all the time to keep up with the meta causes burnout.
Hearthstone, and all other games with constantly changing metas, are games of psychological torment. As Muzzy discovered, it's not enough to just be "good at Hearthstone", one must be constantly attached to Hearthstone, like an overbearing boyfriend, to compete at the highest level.
Addressing Schyla's comment on the Blizzard's forums -
"Hearthstone is too heavy on the RNG side to be of any significance in Esports. Yes, some skill is required and helps, but RNG is too prevalent right now.
This is extremely obvious in that these tournaments always end up with a new set of faces. If skill outweighed RNG, you would see more consistency in the players but you don't.
Look at the tournament choose your champion right now. None of those players are familiar at all."
Are we talking about the Winter Playoffs? I knew half the players there and I'm not very deep into competitive Hearthstone. Three of the players there had already qualified for the World Championship. So the original poster is either exaggerating quite a bit or hasn't followed Hearthstone eSports for a while.
I'd like to talk about these comments. First, consider that the RNG of Hearthstone is mostly based on the draw. Decks that draw one card a turn are very susceptible to bad draws. Warlocks and combo decks that draw multiple cards a turn are much more consistent and less susceptible to bad draws. This is why Even Warlock is so popular among pros, despite being a rather mediocre deck otherwise.
I think there are two factors in Hearthstone's design that make draw RNG more prevalent:
card draw is really expensive: Warlock pays 2 mana + 2 life to draw 1 card, Mage pays 3 mana to net draw 1 card
the mana curve means that high-cost cards are unplayable in the early turns of the game
Faeria has a lot of mechanical similarities to Hearthstone, but card draw is less crucial there. For one, there is the power wheel, which can be seen as a free hero power that lets you choose between creating a land, getting one mana or drawing one extra card. So the cost of drawing 1 card is roughly 1 mana. Also unspent mana carries over into the next turn, so you can play expensive cards early if you save up your mana.
Is there any way to address this though without completely redesigning the game? The only thing I can think of is playing more games per tournament, so each individual draw has less impact. But is that doable from an organisational point of view and are viewers willing to keep watching tournaments where players progress even slower?
I do think that more tournaments are now using Swiss brackets instead of elimination for the early rounds, so that at least gives players who get unlucky early on have a chance to catch up. Still, I've heard complaints that the number of Swiss rounds is relatively low, so players who get unlucky twice are still doomed.
Simple - the *game* of Hearthstone changes constantly. Not only the meta, which changes slightly on a minute-by-minute basis, but new cards are introduced into the game every 4 months, cards are removed every 12 months, and nerfs happen every couple months.
I don't think Hearthstone would be interesting to play though if it didn't change frequently. In fact, most non-casual players are asking for it to change more often, not less.
In the end, eSports can exist because of sponsors (whether it is the game's creator or external brands) and sponsors are attracted by viewers, so having the purest possible eSports from a competitor's point of view isn't going to work if it loses the interest of the viewers.
"Look at the tournament choose your champion right now. None of those players are familiar at all."
lol what? i only started playing this game this year and only started watching the esports part in the last couple months and i knew a majority of the players, seeing a lot of them multiple times. I don't know how you could expect to know the players if you aren't watching. I don't know how that person could make this point. Besides, not all sports have the same longevity of players. Cody Garbrandt was an MMA champion like two years ago and now he's on a three fight knockout loss streak. If you aren't dedicated, you aren't going to "just stay good" at something compared to people who are more dedicated. That's competition. Hearthstone is after all just a video game so some people won't stay dedicated after getting some success in it.
You're seeing a lot of the same people at the top of these tournaments because they're the ones who stay dedicated.
Didn't Tyler win a tourney a while back after barely playing because of dealing with real life stuff? Muzzy wasn't practicing. If Lebron just comes back to basketball without training and practicing he will noticeably play worse. He's known for his crazy work ethic so that wouldn't happen, which is why you think he would always be good. Also if you're talking about HCT americas, Muzzy's lineup was not that good for the meta.
There isn't much RNG in Hearthstone beyond that which is also present in all other draw-based card games.
This must be sarcasm. The amount of random effects in this game is obscene.
For me its not a matter of random effects but more If they are game changing. Which random effects do you See?
A crazy lyra or lucky priest spellstone can be this, but isnt that part of the game plan and isnt that somehow calculated otherwise you would not play that on high Level? Lich king giving you the steal card in a fatigque match ok, that is real rng but should not happen too often.
what I want to say is Rng effects are not too strong and on high Level are rather avoided
I knew all the winter champs players, I think anyone who watches the esports side of things would have and if you don't watch it then why would you know?
RNG has to happen in a card game otherwise it's whoever draws the better cards wins. I don't even see the problem with RNG, it keeps the games interesting plus it makes it fun to watch and play.
There are so many things wrong with your post it's hard to know where to start. Take Even lock for example, it's a really good tournament deck to counter some of the decks others have brought. It's nowhere near the same as playing it ladder.
Decks that draw a lot of cards are not the most consistent, odd paladin for example usually only runs one copy of Divine Favor yet is one of the most consistently high win rate decks around.
randomness is and will always be a turnover, i mean random card generation/effects , check this game : https://hsreplay.net/replay/oHAF3VdCxWWyG3GQrNLkrK it is from one of the las vegas qualifiers , it was on round 7 and i was playing to enter the top8, in the end i won the match 2-1 but what if something like this happen in the world's finals, all those hours playing, qualifying, traveling ... wasted because of RNG.
All the top players are deep inside the meta and are aware of everything that is happening, they know every decklist and every card. They can easily adjust to the meta by knowing what beats the decks they are meeting or can simply adjust the deck to improve those matchups. All of them know that, they breathe hearthstone.
Now when it comes to tournaments probably the most important part is your lineup choice, second most is no matter how you will look at it is luck and RNG. Combination of these 2 things decides who will be successful in the tournament and who will not, because in the end all of the players in the tournament are close to each other skill wise.
I can win 10 games in the row and then lose 10 games in a row. Does it mean my skill changed? Absolutely not. I was as good as a player 20 games ago, what changed was my luck. So no matter how you look at it luck is very big factor in hearthstone. Some average player can play in one of those Vegas qualifier tournaments and he might advance simply because he got Dire Mole into Crackling every game.
And Even Warlock is popular in tournaments not because it can draw a bunch of cards, but because it is usually good against the decks that are being brought to the tournament and can win almost any matchup, has less polarized winrates.
Addressing Schyla's comment on the Blizzard's forums -
"Hearthstone is too heavy on the RNG side to be of any significance in Esports. Yes, some skill is required and helps, but RNG is too prevalent right now.
This is extremely obvious in that these tournaments always end up with a new set of faces. If skill outweighed RNG, you would see more consistency in the players but you don't.
Look at the tournament choose your champion right now. None of those players are familiar at all."
I'd like to talk about these comments. First, consider that the RNG of Hearthstone is mostly based on the draw. Decks that draw one card a turn are very susceptible to bad draws. Warlocks and combo decks that draw multiple cards a turn are much more consistent and less susceptible to bad draws. This is why Even Warlock is so popular among pros, despite being a rather mediocre deck otherwise.
There isn't much RNG in Hearthstone beyond that which is also present in all other draw-based card games. But there are other reasons for competitive player turnover. Ike mentioned recently that having taken a two week break from Hearthstone, Muzzy was trounced in a tournament, going 1-6. Compare this to Lebron James taking a two week break from basketball (as due to injury) - besides a slight bit of rust and aging and any bodily problems caused by the injury itself, there's no other loss of performance for James upon his return. So what's the difference between basketball and Hearthstone?
Simple - the *game* of Hearthstone changes constantly. Not only the meta, which changes slightly on a minute-by-minute basis, but new cards are introduced into the game every 4 months, cards are removed every 12 months, and nerfs happen every couple months.
When James returns from injury he's returning to the same game. There is actually a meta within basketball but it changes VERY slowly relative to Hearthstone, such as the modern meta of the dominance of 3-point shooting.
What this means is that Hearthstone players need to constantly react to the constantly changing meta, learning an enormous amount of new information on a continual basis. Basketball players do not. Once a player becomes good at basketball, he'll *always* be good at basketball until injuries and age take their toll. Muzzy takes 2 weeks off from Hearthstone and suffers a considerable degradation of his skill.
As such, being a Hearthstone player is enormously stressful and difficult relative to being a basketball player, or a player of any sport or game with a stable meta. This stress, difficulty, and need to be constantly vigilant and working all the time to keep up with the meta causes burnout.
Hearthstone, and all other games with constantly changing metas, are games of psychological torment. As Muzzy discovered, it's not enough to just be "good at Hearthstone", one must be constantly attached to Hearthstone, like an overbearing boyfriend, to compete at the highest level.
Are we talking about the Winter Playoffs? I knew half the players there and I'm not very deep into competitive Hearthstone. Three of the players there had already qualified for the World Championship. So the original poster is either exaggerating quite a bit or hasn't followed Hearthstone eSports for a while.
I think there are two factors in Hearthstone's design that make draw RNG more prevalent:
Faeria has a lot of mechanical similarities to Hearthstone, but card draw is less crucial there. For one, there is the power wheel, which can be seen as a free hero power that lets you choose between creating a land, getting one mana or drawing one extra card. So the cost of drawing 1 card is roughly 1 mana. Also unspent mana carries over into the next turn, so you can play expensive cards early if you save up your mana.
Is there any way to address this though without completely redesigning the game? The only thing I can think of is playing more games per tournament, so each individual draw has less impact. But is that doable from an organisational point of view and are viewers willing to keep watching tournaments where players progress even slower?
I do think that more tournaments are now using Swiss brackets instead of elimination for the early rounds, so that at least gives players who get unlucky early on have a chance to catch up. Still, I've heard complaints that the number of Swiss rounds is relatively low, so players who get unlucky twice are still doomed.
I don't think Hearthstone would be interesting to play though if it didn't change frequently. In fact, most non-casual players are asking for it to change more often, not less.
In the end, eSports can exist because of sponsors (whether it is the game's creator or external brands) and sponsors are attracted by viewers, so having the purest possible eSports from a competitor's point of view isn't going to work if it loses the interest of the viewers.
"Look at the tournament choose your champion right now. None of those players are familiar at all."
lol what? i only started playing this game this year and only started watching the esports part in the last couple months and i knew a majority of the players, seeing a lot of them multiple times. I don't know how you could expect to know the players if you aren't watching. I don't know how that person could make this point. Besides, not all sports have the same longevity of players. Cody Garbrandt was an MMA champion like two years ago and now he's on a three fight knockout loss streak. If you aren't dedicated, you aren't going to "just stay good" at something compared to people who are more dedicated. That's competition. Hearthstone is after all just a video game so some people won't stay dedicated after getting some success in it.
You're seeing a lot of the same people at the top of these tournaments because they're the ones who stay dedicated.
Didn't Tyler win a tourney a while back after barely playing because of dealing with real life stuff? Muzzy wasn't practicing. If Lebron just comes back to basketball without training and practicing he will noticeably play worse. He's known for his crazy work ethic so that wouldn't happen, which is why you think he would always be good. Also if you're talking about HCT americas, Muzzy's lineup was not that good for the meta.
I personally think playing in the NBA is probably more challenging then playing professional HS.
This.
That comparison is nonsense... I'd rather compare it to chess. You have to focus and plan ahead of what you are trying to do to defeat your opponent.
Always expect the unexpectable!
This must be sarcasm. The amount of random effects in this game is obscene.
and yet the same players are consistently able to win. odd.
also the OP is a bit ridiculous. hearthstone isn't much different than MtG which has had a robust tourny scene for decades.
For me its not a matter of random effects but more If they are game changing. Which random effects do you See?
A crazy lyra or lucky priest spellstone can be this, but isnt that part of the game plan and isnt that somehow calculated otherwise you would not play that on high Level? Lich king giving you the steal card in a fatigque match ok, that is real rng but should not happen too often.
what I want to say is Rng effects are not too strong and on high Level are rather avoided
I knew all the winter champs players, I think anyone who watches the esports side of things would have and if you don't watch it then why would you know?
RNG has to happen in a card game otherwise it's whoever draws the better cards wins. I don't even see the problem with RNG, it keeps the games interesting plus it makes it fun to watch and play.
There are so many things wrong with your post it's hard to know where to start. Take Even lock for example, it's a really good tournament deck to counter some of the decks others have brought. It's nowhere near the same as playing it ladder.
Decks that draw a lot of cards are not the most consistent, odd paladin for example usually only runs one copy of Divine Favor yet is one of the most consistently high win rate decks around.
randomness is and will always be a turnover, i mean random card generation/effects , check this game : https://hsreplay.net/replay/oHAF3VdCxWWyG3GQrNLkrK it is from one of the las vegas qualifiers , it was on round 7 and i was playing to enter the top8, in the end i won the match 2-1 but what if something like this happen in the world's finals, all those hours playing, qualifying, traveling ... wasted because of RNG.
All the top players are deep inside the meta and are aware of everything that is happening, they know every decklist and every card. They can easily adjust to the meta by knowing what beats the decks they are meeting or can simply adjust the deck to improve those matchups. All of them know that, they breathe hearthstone.
Now when it comes to tournaments probably the most important part is your lineup choice, second most is no matter how you will look at it is luck and RNG. Combination of these 2 things decides who will be successful in the tournament and who will not, because in the end all of the players in the tournament are close to each other skill wise.
I can win 10 games in the row and then lose 10 games in a row. Does it mean my skill changed? Absolutely not. I was as good as a player 20 games ago, what changed was my luck. So no matter how you look at it luck is very big factor in hearthstone. Some average player can play in one of those Vegas qualifier tournaments and he might advance simply because he got Dire Mole into Crackling every game.
And Even Warlock is popular in tournaments not because it can draw a bunch of cards, but because it is usually good against the decks that are being brought to the tournament and can win almost any matchup, has less polarized winrates.