What if... Blizzard was to completely change the incentives for this game and what @!#@ would that look like?
Right now, the principle driver of the reward system is the ladder. As many have posted, adding in a substantial achievement system would be one way to change the paradigm – weighting the end of season rewards on achievements unlocked rather than ladder rank. Those achievements could be reset each season.
I'm curious if other people have ideas that would fundamentally change the incentives for playing and diversify in deck design. DISCLAIMER: I actually do not have no problem with people playing with whatever deck they want (netdeck or custom) in ladder or custom - to each is his/her own. However, the reason this game feels stale at times is because I keep facing the same core group of decks 80% of the time.
TLDR: I want Blizzard to rethink a foundational element of the game to encourage people to experiment more. That's what I think this game really needs right now.
I don't think you can really use achievements to fundamentally change the meta. Trying to do so will warp the system into something completely off. For example, rewarding 'off-meta' play is effectively a punishment towards those that DO like playing meta decks or wish to compete. Don't use a hammer to fix a torn painting.
Achievements should be a means to get people to want to play more, presenting rewards both for playing however they like and presenting challenges for those who wish to stretch themselves to the limit.
Encouraging experimentation and diversity should be built more into the core of the modes. That is, something OTHER THAN ladder for those not interested in competition and just want to mess around. No game rule will supply that (even the much touted 'rotating sets mode' will mean it'll get it's own meta and a different group of 'core group of decks' will form.
Personally I think social is the way to go. Groups/guilds/clans/whatever. Let people form up and make social bonds. THOSE are the environments where you get 'just messing around' styles of play as you're too busy playing with those close to you to care about winning (or else you find others who like winning as much as you do to compete with together).
(in fact, if some sort of guild system is in play with the ability to easily match up with fellow members and organize together, I'd take that WELL over some standardized 'tournament mode' any day. Though NOT over achievements. I think we need both.)
If they would just increase drop rates on purchased packs, I would buy a lot more and play a lot more. When I buy 50 packs and open 2 legendaries at the beginning of the season, I tend to phone it in for the next couple of months, doing dailies but not much else. When I open 5 or 6, I start building crazy decks and experimenting all over the place. I also buy more, since I know my money goes farther.
I don't think you can really use achievements to fundamentally change the meta. Trying to do so will warp the system into something completely off. For example, rewarding 'off-meta' play is effectively a punishment towards those that DO like playing meta decks or wish to compete. Don't use a hammer to fix a torn painting.
Achievements should be a means to get people to want to play more, presenting rewards both for playing however they like and presenting challenges for those who wish to stretch themselves to the limit.
Encouraging experimentation and diversity should be built more into the core of the modes. That is, something OTHER THAN ladder for those not interested in competition and just want to mess around. No game rule will supply that (even the much touted 'rotating sets mode' will mean it'll get it's own meta and a different group of 'core group of decks' will form.
Personally I think social is the way to go. Groups/guilds/clans/whatever. Let people form up and make social bonds. THOSE are the environments where you get 'just messing around' styles of play as you're too busy playing with those close to you to care about winning (or else you find others who like winning as much as you do to compete with together).
(in fact, if some sort of guild system is in play with the ability to easily match up with fellow members and organize together, I'd take that WELL over some standardized 'tournament mode' any day. Though NOT over achievements. I think we need both.)
I like the socialization idea. I'm not saying achievements are the only change, but if you incentivize playing a variety of types of deck by rewarding players for playing certain kinds of cards (for example), then maybe more people would find it enough fun to play "off-meta" decks. My "one change to rule them all" isn't meant to be literally "one change" rather a one paradigm shift that will have a larger impact.
like the socialization idea. I'm not saying achievements are the only change, but if you incentivize playing a variety of types of deck by rewarding players for playing certain kinds of cards (for example), then maybe more people would find it enough fun to play "off-meta" decks. My "one change to rule them all" isn't meant to be literally "one change" rather a one paradigm shift that will have a larger impact.
We have that with quests. Adding more won't do anything extra to the meta.
Competition kills creativity almost by design. So long as the competitive aspect is there, people will look for the Best Thing. You can change what that Best Thing is, but you can't change the fact that it'll be 80% of the meta, whatever it is.
If you want creativity and variety, you have to kill competition. That's why computer opponents aren't 'trying' to actually win; just present an interesting experience.
What we need are more alternatives, give us more game modes. In game goals and earnable rewards is another thing that every other digital card game has. Make it exciting to log in again, give us something to work towards. There's been so many good ideas for this both here and on reddit/official forums, but Blizzard won't do anything but the bare minimum. It's clear they make insane money selling packs or we would've seen more fresh stuff added to the game much earlier.
Achievements are essentially long-term quests - while I would like achievements to be added to the game, I don't think that they would make any impact with respect to the meta-game. Existing quests don't. The ladder is competitive - ultimately, we shouldn't expect it to be any different from IRL competition at the local gaming store. No one brings innovative, fun decks to compete against perfect strangers in store tournaments, and I don't think HS is any different. With IRL games, if you want to play those fun decks, you screw around with friends - HS has a 'Friends" mode too.
As far as remedies to a stale meta-game - I've proposed eliminating the Basic set from Standard ladder, limiting it to Wild and ranks 50-26, and increasing the size of expansions to 145 cards, with the final 10 cards being released for free, as rewards in weekly Tavern Brawls beginning about a month after each expansion is initially released. I've never quite understood why HS needs TWO permanent, non-rotating Core sets, rather than one, and it seems to make sense to restrict all the free noobie cards to the free noobie ladder - give them a few more packs as they climb to rank 25, in order to prepare them for regular competition. With fewer cards in the evergreen set, new cards will be able to make a bigger impact.
If they created a hero-specific rank system they could create achievements related to your attainment with that hero. Perhaps having hero-ranks drop by 1 each month instead of 4 so you can really pgrogress is you focus, lose little if you don’t.
The existing “win 500 games” achievements are just a boring longevity/activity meter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
I'm not proposing achievements as the solution. I'm asking the question: Is there something Blizzard can do to fundamentally change the incentive system. The only reasons I think achievements would be different than quests is there could be literally hundreds of them. The problem with quests is that you only get one a day. Imagine hundreds a season that you could earn (or grind out for some of the harder ones to get).
More than anything, I'm curious if peoples have ideas.
I'm not proposing achievements as the solution. I'm asking the question: Is there something Blizzard can do to fundamentally change the incentive system. The only reasons I think achievements would be different than quests is there could be literally hundreds of them. The problem with quests is that you only get one a day. Imagine hundreds a season that you could earn (or grind out for some of the harder ones to get).
More than anything, I'm curious if peoples have ideas.
That's a different thing. Yes, very much a massive achievement system could and should be added and would be quite awesome for the game.
It won't do anything about the meta but that can be handled in other ways. But yes, achievements is a very much big in.
A rating system. Don't like the game you just played? Deny the other person their reward. Would probably make the game more enjoyable for everyone. The only "bad" thing: It would screw up competitive play for obvious reasons. But I don't give a shit about that.
A rating system. Don't like the game you just played? Deny the other person their reward. Would probably make the game more enjoyable for everyone. The only "bad" thing: It would screw up competitive play for obvious reasons. But I don't give a shit about that.
Yes lets give the salty and toxic community another tool to screw over your opponent after you lost!
A rating system. Don't like the game you just played? Deny the other person their reward. Would probably make the game more enjoyable for everyone. The only "bad" thing: It would screw up competitive play for obvious reasons. But I don't give a shit about that.
Yes lets give the salty and toxic community another tool to screw over your opponent after you lost!
I think with time that would go away since it incentivizes that your opponent has a great game rather than to just win at all costs which is probably the main reason for this saltiness/toxicity to begin with. There can and will be some outside factors, but I think only those left it will be a very small thing that shouldn't interfere much. You have to give them another chance.
What if... Blizzard was to completely change the incentives for this game and what @!#@ would that look like?
Right now, the principle driver of the reward system is the ladder. As many have posted, adding in a substantial achievement system would be one way to change the paradigm – weighting the end of season rewards on achievements unlocked rather than ladder rank. Those achievements could be reset each season.
I'm curious if other people have ideas that would fundamentally change the incentives for playing and diversify in deck design. DISCLAIMER: I actually do not have no problem with people playing with whatever deck they want (netdeck or custom) in ladder or custom - to each is his/her own. However, the reason this game feels stale at times is because I keep facing the same core group of decks 80% of the time.
TLDR: I want Blizzard to rethink a foundational element of the game to encourage people to experiment more. That's what I think this game really needs right now.
I don't think you can really use achievements to fundamentally change the meta. Trying to do so will warp the system into something completely off. For example, rewarding 'off-meta' play is effectively a punishment towards those that DO like playing meta decks or wish to compete. Don't use a hammer to fix a torn painting.
Achievements should be a means to get people to want to play more, presenting rewards both for playing however they like and presenting challenges for those who wish to stretch themselves to the limit.
Encouraging experimentation and diversity should be built more into the core of the modes. That is, something OTHER THAN ladder for those not interested in competition and just want to mess around. No game rule will supply that (even the much touted 'rotating sets mode' will mean it'll get it's own meta and a different group of 'core group of decks' will form.
Personally I think social is the way to go. Groups/guilds/clans/whatever. Let people form up and make social bonds. THOSE are the environments where you get 'just messing around' styles of play as you're too busy playing with those close to you to care about winning (or else you find others who like winning as much as you do to compete with together).
(in fact, if some sort of guild system is in play with the ability to easily match up with fellow members and organize together, I'd take that WELL over some standardized 'tournament mode' any day. Though NOT over achievements. I think we need both.)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
If they would just increase drop rates on purchased packs, I would buy a lot more and play a lot more. When I buy 50 packs and open 2 legendaries at the beginning of the season, I tend to phone it in for the next couple of months, doing dailies but not much else. When I open 5 or 6, I start building crazy decks and experimenting all over the place. I also buy more, since I know my money goes farther.
I like the socialization idea. I'm not saying achievements are the only change, but if you incentivize playing a variety of types of deck by rewarding players for playing certain kinds of cards (for example), then maybe more people would find it enough fun to play "off-meta" decks. My "one change to rule them all" isn't meant to be literally "one change" rather a one paradigm shift that will have a larger impact.
We have that with quests. Adding more won't do anything extra to the meta.
Competition kills creativity almost by design. So long as the competitive aspect is there, people will look for the Best Thing. You can change what that Best Thing is, but you can't change the fact that it'll be 80% of the meta, whatever it is.
If you want creativity and variety, you have to kill competition. That's why computer opponents aren't 'trying' to actually win; just present an interesting experience.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
What we need are more alternatives, give us more game modes. In game goals and earnable rewards is another thing that every other digital card game has. Make it exciting to log in again, give us something to work towards. There's been so many good ideas for this both here and on reddit/official forums, but Blizzard won't do anything but the bare minimum. It's clear they make insane money selling packs or we would've seen more fresh stuff added to the game much earlier.
Achievements are essentially long-term quests - while I would like achievements to be added to the game, I don't think that they would make any impact with respect to the meta-game. Existing quests don't. The ladder is competitive - ultimately, we shouldn't expect it to be any different from IRL competition at the local gaming store. No one brings innovative, fun decks to compete against perfect strangers in store tournaments, and I don't think HS is any different. With IRL games, if you want to play those fun decks, you screw around with friends - HS has a 'Friends" mode too.
As far as remedies to a stale meta-game - I've proposed eliminating the Basic set from Standard ladder, limiting it to Wild and ranks 50-26, and increasing the size of expansions to 145 cards, with the final 10 cards being released for free, as rewards in weekly Tavern Brawls beginning about a month after each expansion is initially released. I've never quite understood why HS needs TWO permanent, non-rotating Core sets, rather than one, and it seems to make sense to restrict all the free noobie cards to the free noobie ladder - give them a few more packs as they climb to rank 25, in order to prepare them for regular competition. With fewer cards in the evergreen set, new cards will be able to make a bigger impact.
Just my two cents, I suppose . . .
If they created a hero-specific rank system they could create achievements related to your attainment with that hero. Perhaps having hero-ranks drop by 1 each month instead of 4 so you can really pgrogress is you focus, lose little if you don’t.
The existing “win 500 games” achievements are just a boring longevity/activity meter.
Shudderwock means driving a clown car in circles around your opponent while he swings his sword at you. Half the time he chops you and your car to pieces. The other half you park on his legs and 40 clowns come out one by one, trampling him to death.
Whizbang Strategy Reference -- update complete for Rastakhan's Rumble!
I'm not proposing achievements as the solution. I'm asking the question: Is there something Blizzard can do to fundamentally change the incentive system. The only reasons I think achievements would be different than quests is there could be literally hundreds of them. The problem with quests is that you only get one a day. Imagine hundreds a season that you could earn (or grind out for some of the harder ones to get).
More than anything, I'm curious if peoples have ideas.
That's a different thing. Yes, very much a massive achievement system could and should be added and would be quite awesome for the game.
It won't do anything about the meta but that can be handled in other ways. But yes, achievements is a very much big in.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
A rating system. Don't like the game you just played? Deny the other person their reward. Would probably make the game more enjoyable for everyone. The only "bad" thing: It would screw up competitive play for obvious reasons. But I don't give a shit about that.
Achievement: deal x dmg to enemy hero using leper gnomes (only victorious games will count), deal at least 10 lethal blows with leper gnomes.
Reward : 2 golden leper gnomes. Something simple like that can improve game quite alot. Achivements system implemented in tons of games.
Yes lets give the salty and toxic community another tool to screw over your opponent after you lost!
I think with time that would go away since it incentivizes that your opponent has a great game rather than to just win at all costs which is probably the main reason for this saltiness/toxicity to begin with. There can and will be some outside factors, but I think only those left it will be a very small thing that shouldn't interfere much. You have to give them another chance.
Give 2 stars to a non meta deck win...
There is no cancer deck in hearthstone ! You are the Cancer !