Btw, I'd like to point out that most of the issues about Odd/Even essentially have their source in community boredom.
Yes, boredom. People are just bored of seeing the same neutral card over and over. Diversity (and we have it) doesn't even matter. It's not like the meta is tyrannised by one Odd or Even deck. Just seeing the single neutral card triggers the masses, independently of its effect in different classes.
Prince Keleseth faced the same hatestorm for very similar reasons. Start of the Game effect just made it more tilting, and kinda hid the hate for Prince behind Genn/Baku.
This reasoning of mine also comes after having personally and systematically defeated Wild Odd Paladin with both Wild Even Druid and Wild Even Rogue, both considered off-meta, while Odd Paladin is considered an OP cancer: powerlevel does not really matter in this discussion.
I also bet very few players actually share their concerns with Kibler: most players are just tilted and jumped on the bandwagon of a leader with a solid banner.
I love Genn and Baku, but I never play them. They're the best, most original neutral legendaries they've created in a long time. They add a whole new dimension to the game, and would welcome additional "Start of Game" effects.
The problem is with Blizzard themselves. I believe that they quite carefully pick which cards need nerfing, but the exact nerf they decide on seems to be based on where the dart lands on the dartboard.
"Ok, so now we're gonna nerf equality! Get that blindfold on, Grant."
*Spins around 3 times. Throws dart at dartboard*
"Ooooh! Nerf by 2 mana. Shame. It might have been better if it landed on "Nerf by 1 mana" or "Nerf Consecration instead", but the dart has spoken!"
I love Genn and Baku, but I never play them. They're the best, most original neutral legendaries they've created in a long time. They add a whole new dimension to the game, and would welcome additional "Start of Game" effects.
The problem is with Blizzard themselves. I believe that they quite carefully pick which cards need nerfing, but the exact nerf they decide on seems to be based on where the dart lands on the dartboard.
"Ok, so now we're gonna nerf equality! Get that blindfold on, Grant."
*Spins around 3 times. Throws dart at dartboard*
"Ooooh! Nerf by 2 mana. Shame. It might have been better if it landed on "Nerf by 1 mana" or "Nerf Consecration instead", but the dart has spoken!"
Honestly this is mostly a standard format issue. In wild last season from my climb from rank 15 to legend I mostly just saw Even Shaman, Odd Rogue, a few Odd Warriors, & the rare Even Lock out of all of the Genn & Baku decks. Reno Dragon Priest destroyed the first two decks prior to the nerfs & the later two weren't played enough for them to be a consistent problem.
Perhaps it's just the nature of an incredibly narrow card pool (even at its peak) in standard that makes these two cards seem much more of an issue than it is that they are actually bad for the game. After all, standard seems to require dozens of card nerfs just to make the format work, while in wild you nerf just Leeching Poison & completely take the old anti-control Kingsbane Rogue out of the meta altogether.
I'm just going to leave this video here. Perfect explaination about the current problem with Hearthstone (which obviously involves Genn and Baku ;)):
That's not fair. That's coming from someone that makes their own decks. Braindead netdeckers love playing Genn/Baku.
#valid
Kibler is an amazing person & player whose opinion on HS should definitely be valued, but on this one I think he is wrong. Baku/Genn aren't the problem. If you think 2 1/1 for 2 mana as a HP is too strong why nerf Baku? You cannot nerf Baku. Either ban her or change her fundamentally (together with Genn).
I will also never understand people literally being orgasmic about whether the deck you built is a "homebrew" or "netdeck" one. Must be some kind of zeitgeist in these days...
I'm just going to leave this video here. Perfect explaination about the current problem with Hearthstone (which obviously involves Genn and Baku ;)):
That's not fair. That's coming from someone that makes their own decks. Braindead netdeckers love playing Genn/Baku.
#valid
Kibler is an amazing person & player whose opinion on HS should definitely be valued, but on this one I think he is wrong. Baku/Genn aren't the problem. If you think 2 1/1 for 2 mana as a HP is too strong why nerf Baku? You cannot nerf Baku. Either ban her or change her fundamentally (together with Genn).
What? Did you really watch the full video, dude? He is really not complaining about how strong the hero powers are, he is complaining about the fact games involving Baku and Genn decks all play almost exactly the same (much more than any other game involving other decks), which is boring as hell because of the lack of diversity, almost non-existant decision making and unexpected swings in those matches.
I'm just going to leave this video here. Perfect explaination about the current problem with Hearthstone (which obviously involves Genn and Baku ;)):
That's not fair. That's coming from someone that makes their own decks. Braindead netdeckers love playing Genn/Baku.
#valid
Kibler is an amazing person & player whose opinion on HS should definitely be valued, but on this one I think he is wrong. Baku/Genn aren't the problem. If you think 2 1/1 for 2 mana as a HP is too strong why nerf Baku? You cannot nerf Baku. Either ban her or change her fundamentally (together with Genn).
I will also never understand people literally being orgasmic about whether the deck you built is a "homebrew" or "netdeck" one. Must be some kind of zeitgeist in these days...
You can easily nerf Baku: pally now summons a 2/2 instead of 2 1/1's, Rogue gets a 2/1 weapon instead of a 2/2, warrior gets 3 armor instead of 4. Those are all still impactful changes that cut into the obvious advantage those hero powers offer over other upgraded hero powers.
And for consistency, nerf priest upgraded healing to 3 instead of 4, make druid hero power either 2 attack + 1 armor or 1 attack + 2 armor, and idk about warlock because baku lock isn't a thing, but maybe it only costs 1 health instead of 2 (of just leave it).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Tbh, Kibler's points make sense, but are not sufficient to call out Odd/Even decks against the majority of meta decks: all meta decks are highly predictable.
Eg. Odd Rogue. He's going to Hero Power very often, so you know that. Boring, yes. But besides that, it makes a huge difference when an Odd Rogue cannot draw Fungalmancer or Vilespine Slayer. The guessing game is narrowed down, but the outcome of a match is still highly dependant upon drawing specific cards, and and the guessing game is still there about those cards.
Also, Kibler speaks as a higly expert player. He can pilot meme decks against t1 decks and still win consistently. But is boredom out of high predictability really a thing for the average player?
Isn't it more like a fetish of hate that people generate out of experience, to explain their defeats?
I did not like either of these cards from the very beginning and sure enough, as soon as people figured them out, they started producing mostly aggro decks that are all basically the same and made the game incredibly boring to play and a coin toss on ladder, if you played one of them yourselves.
That's not their biggest crime though. Ever since the meta became flooded with Baku and Genn decks and hearthstone hit us with nerfs to other cards, they had to go out of their way to increase the nerfed mana cost by 1 extra mana, just so the card would not continue to see play in a Genn or Baku deck. So essentially, because of these two moronic cards, they nerf cards extra hard for no other reason than so it would not show up in their deck. Good job Blizzard, you played yourself. You printed two absoultely terrible cards that are now limiting the other cards you can print and making your nerfs even worse
Did you just transcribe a Kibler rant here? Same thing he has been saying for months now. Nothing new at all. Not even a different point of view - just Kibler verbatim.
I have actually not seen his rant on this, I haven't watched his videos for months but I can see how we agree on these kidns of things, it's obvious. Only the die hard blizzard never does anything wrong loyalists would disagree
I personally like a lot Baku and Genn. The only thing is that they are difficult to manage and Blizzard is managing that bad. Too late nerfs and too much nerfs due to these 2 cards.
My point is in fact the opposite. The game is not fun anymore because there is nothing new. Baku and Genn were the last real new stuffs that we got.
At the end when something is bored you hate everything inside, even the last 2 good things that we got.
I really hope to not see the Baku and Genn nerfs'.
I'm just going to leave this video here. Perfect explaination about the current problem with Hearthstone (which obviously involves Genn and Baku ;)):
That's not fair. That's coming from someone that makes their own decks. Braindead netdeckers love playing Genn/Baku.
#valid
Kibler is an amazing person & player whose opinion on HS should definitely be valued, but on this one I think he is wrong. Baku/Genn aren't the problem. If you think 2 1/1 for 2 mana as a HP is too strong why nerf Baku? You cannot nerf Baku. Either ban her or change her fundamentally (together with Genn).
What? Did you really watch the full video, dude? He is really not complaining about how strong the hero powers are, he is complaining about the fact games involving Baku and Genn decks all play almost exactly the same (much more than any other game involving other decks), which is boring as hell because of the lack of diversity, almost non-existant decision making and unexpected swings in those matches.
Honestly I don't consider them playing the same as being that strong of a deck. Look at plenty of old meta decks we've had that played exactly the same for most of their opponent match-ups. Some decks just play the same simply because the deck is just narrowly defined into its own win condition. Take Freeze Mage for example. The deck really became interesting to watch during mirror games, but almost universally played out the same against most other non-Freeze Mage match-ups. Did that mean that the deck was problematic because it didn't deviate that much during most match-ups? No, but the deck could only throw so much burn at the face before it stopped working and fell apart as a cycle deck with limited reach.
Imo the more familiar decks become the more that it seems those same decks end up playing exactly the same, merely varying playstyle based on what strategy the opponent is using. For example, take any slow control lock or mage deck (wild or standard) and pit them against another control deck with no built in OTK alternate win condition. The games often turn into a boring game of building 1-3 minion boards, some chip damage, and baiting out/counting removal from the opponent until you can get something big to stick in the very late game. Those match-ups hardly deviate from that general model. Now it's true that a control lock or mage in this narrow example would deviate when playing against things like aggro or OTK/combo, but in general such decks break down into their own auto pilot game plans for those playstyles too. So, while it is true that genn/baku plays out the same in many instances lets not pretend that most other decks don't do the same thing.
There is a reason I mostly moved from control decks to wacky OTKs/meme decks. Many non-Genn/Baku decks also heavily seemed like some scripted game (especially when playing the control class that had the better removal & value generation and I'm not just talking about so called "infinite value"cards either).
Couldn't agree more with author of the post. Like imagine the metagame after new expansion comes out and most of the Op cards are gone - there will be only Genn/Baku as tier 1-2 decks, because you don't really need a good cards in these decks, you just put all the cards that synergies with your hero power and voila - another super tempo deck, which you can't beat if you drew poorly. This is just how it works... Besides it's really limiting the design space, when you're creating a deck (and not just copying it from tempostorm or whatever). So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that they need either HoF Genn/Baku in order to bring the new meta, or send Withcwood to wild with other expansions. Don't really think you could redesign or nerf them tho.
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A bit like people complaining about complainers, hey?
Complain complain complain...
o.O
Btw, I'd like to point out that most of the issues about Odd/Even essentially have their source in community boredom.
Yes, boredom. People are just bored of seeing the same neutral card over and over. Diversity (and we have it) doesn't even matter. It's not like the meta is tyrannised by one Odd or Even deck. Just seeing the single neutral card triggers the masses, independently of its effect in different classes.
Prince Keleseth faced the same hatestorm for very similar reasons. Start of the Game effect just made it more tilting, and kinda hid the hate for Prince behind Genn/Baku.
This reasoning of mine also comes after having personally and systematically defeated Wild Odd Paladin with both Wild Even Druid and Wild Even Rogue, both considered off-meta, while Odd Paladin is considered an OP cancer: powerlevel does not really matter in this discussion.
I also bet very few players actually share their concerns with Kibler: most players are just tilted and jumped on the bandwagon of a leader with a solid banner.
If Genn Greymane, Baku the Mooneater (and Prince Keleseth) where tri-class neutrals (like Aya Blackpaw or Kazakus), instead of full-neutrals, I bet the whole issue in the community wouldn't exist.
I love Genn and Baku, but I never play them. They're the best, most original neutral legendaries they've created in a long time. They add a whole new dimension to the game, and would welcome additional "Start of Game" effects.
The problem is with Blizzard themselves. I believe that they quite carefully pick which cards need nerfing, but the exact nerf they decide on seems to be based on where the dart lands on the dartboard.
"Ok, so now we're gonna nerf equality! Get that blindfold on, Grant."
*Spins around 3 times. Throws dart at dartboard*
"Ooooh! Nerf by 2 mana. Shame. It might have been better if it landed on "Nerf by 1 mana" or "Nerf Consecration instead", but the dart has spoken!"
Nerf concecration? That's a new one by me.
I'm just going to leave this video here. Perfect explaination about the current problem with Hearthstone (which obviously involves Genn and Baku ;)):
That's not fair. That's coming from someone that makes their own decks. Braindead netdeckers love playing Genn/Baku.
#valid
Fun > Meta
Honestly this is mostly a standard format issue. In wild last season from my climb from rank 15 to legend I mostly just saw Even Shaman, Odd Rogue, a few Odd Warriors, & the rare Even Lock out of all of the Genn & Baku decks. Reno Dragon Priest destroyed the first two decks prior to the nerfs & the later two weren't played enough for them to be a consistent problem.
Perhaps it's just the nature of an incredibly narrow card pool (even at its peak) in standard that makes these two cards seem much more of an issue than it is that they are actually bad for the game. After all, standard seems to require dozens of card nerfs just to make the format work, while in wild you nerf just Leeching Poison & completely take the old anti-control Kingsbane Rogue out of the meta altogether.
/thinking
Kibler is an amazing person & player whose opinion on HS should definitely be valued, but on this one I think he is wrong. Baku/Genn aren't the problem. If you think 2 1/1 for 2 mana as a HP is too strong why nerf Baku? You cannot nerf Baku. Either ban her or change her fundamentally (together with Genn).
I will also never understand people literally being orgasmic about whether the deck you built is a "homebrew" or "netdeck" one. Must be some kind of zeitgeist in these days...
What? Did you really watch the full video, dude? He is really not complaining about how strong the hero powers are, he is complaining about the fact games involving Baku and Genn decks all play almost exactly the same (much more than any other game involving other decks), which is boring as hell because of the lack of diversity, almost non-existant decision making and unexpected swings in those matches.
You can easily nerf Baku: pally now summons a 2/2 instead of 2 1/1's, Rogue gets a 2/1 weapon instead of a 2/2, warrior gets 3 armor instead of 4. Those are all still impactful changes that cut into the obvious advantage those hero powers offer over other upgraded hero powers.
And for consistency, nerf priest upgraded healing to 3 instead of 4, make druid hero power either 2 attack + 1 armor or 1 attack + 2 armor, and idk about warlock because baku lock isn't a thing, but maybe it only costs 1 health instead of 2 (of just leave it).
Rage quitting: the best way to ensure your opponent knows they beat a giant baby.
Tbh, Kibler's points make sense, but are not sufficient to call out Odd/Even decks against the majority of meta decks: all meta decks are highly predictable.
Eg. Odd Rogue. He's going to Hero Power very often, so you know that. Boring, yes. But besides that, it makes a huge difference when an Odd Rogue cannot draw Fungalmancer or Vilespine Slayer. The guessing game is narrowed down, but the outcome of a match is still highly dependant upon drawing specific cards, and and the guessing game is still there about those cards.
Also, Kibler speaks as a higly expert player. He can pilot meme decks against t1 decks and still win consistently. But is boredom out of high predictability really a thing for the average player?
Isn't it more like a fetish of hate that people generate out of experience, to explain their defeats?
Did you just transcribe a Kibler rant here? Same thing he has been saying for months now. Nothing new at all. Not even a different point of view - just Kibler verbatim.
I have actually not seen his rant on this, I haven't watched his videos for months but I can see how we agree on these kidns of things, it's obvious. Only the die hard blizzard never does anything wrong loyalists would disagree
Genn and Baku have a 3-4 person cheer squad on here... "Everything's fine! You're just salty! Your Genn and Baku logic's faulty!" Repeat x 1,000,000.
Do you guys have jobs? Are you Blizzard PR reps in disguise? :D
I personally like a lot Baku and Genn. The only thing is that they are difficult to manage and Blizzard is managing that bad. Too late nerfs and too much nerfs due to these 2 cards.
My point is in fact the opposite. The game is not fun anymore because there is nothing new. Baku and Genn were the last real new stuffs that we got.
At the end when something is bored you hate everything inside, even the last 2 good things that we got.
I really hope to not see the Baku and Genn nerfs'.
Honestly I don't consider them playing the same as being that strong of a deck. Look at plenty of old meta decks we've had that played exactly the same for most of their opponent match-ups. Some decks just play the same simply because the deck is just narrowly defined into its own win condition. Take Freeze Mage for example. The deck really became interesting to watch during mirror games, but almost universally played out the same against most other non-Freeze Mage match-ups. Did that mean that the deck was problematic because it didn't deviate that much during most match-ups? No, but the deck could only throw so much burn at the face before it stopped working and fell apart as a cycle deck with limited reach.
Imo the more familiar decks become the more that it seems those same decks end up playing exactly the same, merely varying playstyle based on what strategy the opponent is using. For example, take any slow control lock or mage deck (wild or standard) and pit them against another control deck with no built in OTK alternate win condition. The games often turn into a boring game of building 1-3 minion boards, some chip damage, and baiting out/counting removal from the opponent until you can get something big to stick in the very late game. Those match-ups hardly deviate from that general model. Now it's true that a control lock or mage in this narrow example would deviate when playing against things like aggro or OTK/combo, but in general such decks break down into their own auto pilot game plans for those playstyles too. So, while it is true that genn/baku plays out the same in many instances lets not pretend that most other decks don't do the same thing.
There is a reason I mostly moved from control decks to wacky OTKs/meme decks. Many non-Genn/Baku decks also heavily seemed like some scripted game (especially when playing the control class that had the better removal & value generation and I'm not just talking about so called "infinite value"cards either).
Couldn't agree more with author of the post. Like imagine the metagame after new expansion comes out and most of the Op cards are gone - there will be only Genn/Baku as tier 1-2 decks, because you don't really need a good cards in these decks, you just put all the cards that synergies with your hero power and voila - another super tempo deck, which you can't beat if you drew poorly. This is just how it works... Besides it's really limiting the design space, when you're creating a deck (and not just copying it from tempostorm or whatever). So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that they need either HoF Genn/Baku in order to bring the new meta, or send Withcwood to wild with other expansions. Don't really think you could redesign or nerf them tho.