You know that won't happen as it is against the policy to design cards for a certain target audience. Between the lines you also imply they are not that good in design. They won't except that. And by the way, if you let the masses decide nothing comes of it.
You can't fix unethical card design by a public verdict.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
PTR is nice to have, in order to fix bugs in games that can have bugs. HS is not one of them. And no, T5 does not care about balance, anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't played the game long enough.
They care about the financial value, the EV and those sweet numbers that go high-high on each expansion-release. And a PTR would totally ruin that, because (like so many people already pointed out) - the players are not going to buy the packs in order to try most of the cards and see what they can do with them, they will just craft the good ones.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
They don't even let us test the cards by having a launch week tavern brawl with the premade decks. Blizzard keeps sales of HS content high with mystery. If people knew how disappointing Rumble and Boomsday were going to be, sales would have suffered.
You can't fix unethical card design by a public verdict.
To even attempt it "unethical card design" (whatever that means) would have to exist. As it doesn't it's a moot point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
Casuals already complain that meta gets figured too fast. Imagine having it figured weeks before the expansion come out.
Probably the only real credible complaint I've read so far in the responses. The meta usually settles within two weeks of release so it's not that huge of a benefit to have an unsettled meta when an expansion goes live. But the reality is what is the lesser evil? Constant nerfs and changes due to inadequate internal testing or perhaps losing that unsettled meta experience for the first week or two after release? I'd say the latter is definitely the lesser evil.
The problem is that you'd have a more balanced metagame, which is true, but it will be stale from day 1, with no new decks occurring during its lifecycle because it was solved prior to the launch. You'd gain more balance but less discovery.
one of the major spots in Hearthstone year is the 1st week of an expansion's release, letting the players enjoy opening packs in the PTR will erase the hype in these people when the expansion is actually released, they will open packs and then play until they get bored, which will lead to less money, unless the PTR Players cant open packs with gold, because PTR doesnt count, so i will spend my gold in a place that doesnt count my gold and then save my gold for the next Expansion, and each time i will enjoy a new expansion with never ending gold.
example. now i have 3k. i opened 30 packs in PTR, i stopped, then went to farming gold ( only daily quests ), and reached 5k or 8k, either i collect more or stop at that and each time i open packs with that amount for free.
Have you ever played the wow test server? It's nothing like live, it's usually walled off and only certain things get tested on a schedule plus no loot drops from the bosses or raids. Wow has a test server and balance patches so I don't see why you think it would help with balance.
It wouldn't work with a card game, you need a big enough sample size to form a meta and you cannot ensure you'd have enough players plus if the decks are already figured out before the expansion then it takes all the fun out of it.
Nah, it would just kill the fun first days of the new meta as all the decks would be perfected on release, also Activision Blizzard isn't exactly known for caring about PTR/beta feedback.
A Test Server is a great idea, but using it for releasing expansions early would be a massive waste. It's already depressing enough that the newness of meta is beaten to death within a week or two in wide release.
What they need it for is new game modes. If they can't test how new modes would play out, they'll always be to afraid to release any. And if they don't innovate in game modes they're going to wither away.
First, i believe they wont do it, cause they would "look bad", like they cant handle it themselves. Which we know that is a fact ...
Just wanted to highlight this because it's a great point. They should be able to handle balancing 135 cards by themselves. If they actually need a PTR and thousands of players to see if a card isn't balanced or that a certain combo is too powerful, well, then they really do suck and should hire some better testers. Again, their sets are pretty small compared to a game like Magic.
For spoiling the metagame after expansions: NO! Others have explained why. Emergency fixes like the one to Corridor Creeper is much better imo!
For testing card nerfs and tweaks: Why not?
Plusses:
The communtiy will feel more important and that they have more of a say
Dedicated players will come with detailed feedback
Several approaches could be tested much more extensively than they could internally
Nerf mistakes are less likely to happen.
Problems:
How to implement a PTR into a CCG would have to be solved. How do you import your collection to the PTR? Should all cards be available, potentially draining the real game?
It could be difficult to know if the PTR metagame would be realistic. The changed cards could end up being played too little. Should it be set up to play certain matchups and classes more?
Too few players could end up playing the PTR, so the numbers could end up too small to be conclusive. This would certainly be a problem testing Wild changes, as the number of games in the real game are already small.
Setting up a PTR and gathering data could take a long time. For obvious nerfs, this could be unnecessary and provoke the players.
The only credible complaint I'm seeing is that having a PTR would result in a resolved meta on day 1. As it is, the meta largely resolves within two weeks of launch. So having a PTR eliminates this two week period of variety. I don't find this argument very persuasive. Most people won't use the PTR. Only a fraction of the player base uses the WOW or OW PTRs today. And those that would use the HS PTR are primarily using it so they can figure out what the meta should be. And those players won't mind finding it out sooner rather than later. Most HS players are casual. They don't play the meta optimized decks so the meta resolving sooner won't really effect them. The primary benefit of the PTR is we won't have to suffer from broken mechanics for weeks or months while the HS dev team works up the gumption to make nerfs. I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
The only credible complaint I'm seeing is that having a PTR would result in a resolved meta on day 1. As it is, the meta largely resolves within two weeks of launch. So having a PTR eliminates this two week period of variety. I don't find this argument very persuasive. Most people won't use the PTR. Only a fraction of the player base uses the WOW or OW PTRs today. And those that would use the HS PTR are primarily using it so they can figure out what the meta should be. And those players won't mind finding it out sooner rather than later. Most HS players are casual. They don't play the meta optimized decks so the meta resolving sooner won't really effect them. The primary benefit of the PTR is we won't have to suffer from broken mechanics for weeks or months while the HS dev team works up the gumption to make nerfs. I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
Is there a point to this thread? Obviously you aren''t going to listen to reason, so what is the point of discussing.
The only credible complaint I'm seeing is that having a PTR would result in a resolved meta on day 1. As it is, the meta largely resolves within two weeks of launch. So having a PTR eliminates this two week period of variety. I don't find this argument very persuasive. Most people won't use the PTR. Only a fraction of the player base uses the WOW or OW PTRs today. And those that would use the HS PTR are primarily using it so they can figure out what the meta should be. And those players won't mind finding it out sooner rather than later. Most HS players are casual. They don't play the meta optimized decks so the meta resolving sooner won't really effect them. The primary benefit of the PTR is we won't have to suffer from broken mechanics for weeks or months while the HS dev team works up the gumption to make nerfs. I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
Is there a point to this thread? Obviously you aren''t going to listen to reason, so what is the point of discussing.
Dumb idea is just dumb.
Yes, the point is to discuss the topic. Not being convinced by your argument isn't the same as not listening to your argument. Maybe you forgot there was a months long beta testing for HS before it went live. That seemed to work fine.
I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
You've been given plenty of reasons, you've just ignored them. I'll give you a nice list.
Implementing a PTR means revealing all the cards much earlier before an expansion releases - if you want fixes to cards to happen with the launch, that means revealing all the cards at least a month before the live launch to gather anywhere near enough data. That completely ruins the hype of the expansion build-up because we now know everything about the expansion and just have to wait for them to decide to release it. Why not just release the expansion a month earlier instead of wasting time with a PTR?
You said it yourself - not many people will play on a PTR. As such it will be absolutely useless for establishing the power of cards. You need a large amount of players playing against each other to prevent people from falling into a false meta - tricking themselves into thinking certain cards are better or worse than they actually are because not enough people are trying different decks. APM Priest, for example, might look like an overpowered nightmare in a PTR where people aren't playing enough Aggro and they're all very good at the game.
Then you could have the opposite problem - what's to prevent people from just playing on the PTR? You'd need to give players all the cards on the PTR, otherwise they can't test them. So why would people play on live servers while the PTR is happening? I'd love to play Hearthstone with all the cards. In order for them to still make money, they need people to buy packs. So a PTR would need to be open for a short time - useless for data collection - or be restricted to only a select group of people - also useless for data collection.
So you either kill the game's economy - thus killing the game - or don't have enough people playing a PTR to collect any meaningful data. Either way you have to reveal all the cards much further in advance, reducing the hype build-up. Let's move away from playing an expansion early, since that idea is clearly insane, and instead focus on something other people have brought up - having a PTR to test card nerfs.
Pointlessly stretching the card nerf process out into a PTR would only aggravate players. Let's take the most recent nerfs as an example - these nerfs were implemented 15 days after the launch of the expansion. Why would you bring them to a PTR to be pored over by a small number of players instead of just pushing them live? Then while these PTR players are hemming and hawing over whether this card change feels right or not, players of the actual game are still suffering the game in an unnerfed state.
As before, a small number of players playing with nerfs is useless information. They've already got all the data they need to see what cards need nerfed - it doesn't matter if they're overzealous in the nerf, so long as it has the intended effect of changing the meta up.
I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
You've been given plenty of reasons, you've just ignored them. I'll give you a nice list.
I said a compelling reason. As you probably know, whether an argument is compelling is a matter of opinion. So you can have your opinion and I can have mine. But let's take each of these arguments in order and I'll explain why I think they aren't compelling.
Implementing a PTR means revealing all the cards much earlier before an expansion releases - if you want fixes to cards to happen with the launch, that means revealing all the cards at least a month before the live launch to gather anywhere near enough data. That completely ruins the hype of the expansion build-up because we now know everything about the expansion and just have to wait for them to decide to release it. Why not just release the expansion a month earlier instead of wasting time with a PTR?
I've yet to see anyone offer credible evidence that "the hype of the expansion build-up" is something to be valued to the point that we should favor it over an effective testing of new content. Hearthstone's initial beta lasted for 4 months but didn't seem to prejudice its going live. Look at other games such as WOW with extended betas yet it doesn't prejudice its going live. So is this a reason to consider? Sure. Is it a compelling or credible reason? Jury is still out and I'd say it's likely not.
You said it yourself - not many people will play on a PTR. As such it will be absolutely useless for establishing the power of cards. You need a large amount of players playing against each other to prevent people from falling into a false meta - tricking themselves into thinking certain cards are better or worse than they actually are because not enough people are trying different decks. APM Priest, for example, might look like an overpowered nightmare in a PTR where people aren't playing enough Aggro and they're all very good at the game.
Testing functions don't require the entire player base or even a majority of the player base to participate. Do you think betas involve the majority of a player base? And the players that will participate in the PTR will likely be the most competitive players who are setting the meta. So it's certainly more likely the PTR will resolve towards the meta not the "false meta".
Then you could have the opposite problem - what's to prevent people from just playing on the PTR? You'd need to give players all the cards on the PTR, otherwise they can't test them. So why would people play on live servers while the PTR is happening? I'd love to play Hearthstone with all the cards. In order for them to still make money, they need people to buy packs. So a PTR would need to be open for a short time - useless for data collection - or be restricted to only a select group of people - also useless for data collection.
Maybe you don't understand how PTRs work or beta tests in general. They aren't live forever. They are live for a period of time. The PTR would be open for a set period of time before the expansion goes live and would close when the expansion goes live. You don't have to think too hard to figure this out.
So I'll repeat - I've seen some reasons but I've yet to see any compelling or credible reasons.
I've yet to see anyone offer credible evidence that "the hype of the expansion build-up" is something to be valued to the point that we should favor it over an effective testing of new content.
Credible evidence? How about just common sense.
I've yet to see anyone offer credible evidence that "the hype of the expansion build-up" is something to be valued to the point that we should favor it over an effective testing of new content.
Guess you've got it all figured out. Apply to Blizzard or petition them with your grand idea. We're all eagerly awaiting implementation with bated breath...
I'll say again - why not just release the expansion a month earlier? What purpose does a PTR serve here, except to spoil the contents of the expansion a month before release? The hype before an expansion releases is absolutely critical - if we know what cards are good and what cards aren't weeks in advance, there's no reason to buy the pre-order, or even any large amount of packs, since you can just craft the cards that you know are good for the already-figured-out meta.
WoW has a PTR to test for major bugs and things like that. The fact that WoW has numerous ways you can tweak balance also allows them to make balance changes based on player feedback. Hearthstone doesn't have this. All balance changes are either large number tweaks or functional changes, and all of these need much more data behind them because they are such large changes.
I genuinely don't understand how you expect a PTR to function. What is its purpose? What changes do you expect to occur in it? If you could lay out a timeline and how you think it would function that might help me understand where you're coming from, but as it is I can't see how this wouldn't just be worse for Hearthstone with zero upside.
I'll say again - why not just release the expansion a month earlier? What purpose does a PTR serve here, except to spoil the contents of the expansion a month before release? The hype before an expansion releases is absolutely critical - if we know what cards are good and what cards aren't weeks in advance, there's no reason to buy the pre-order, or even any large amount of packs, since you can just craft the cards that you know are good for the already-figured-out meta.
WoW has a PTR to test for major bugs and things like that. The fact that WoW has numerous ways you can tweak balance also allows them to make balance changes based on player feedback. Hearthstone doesn't have this. All balance changes are either large number tweaks or functional changes, and all of these need much more data behind them because they are such large changes.
I genuinely don't understand how you expect a PTR to function. What is its purpose? What changes do you expect to occur in it? If you could lay out a timeline and how you think it would function that might help me understand where you're coming from, but as it is I can't see how this wouldn't just be worse for Hearthstone with zero upside.
The current internal test environment is clearly inadequate as we can see from the number of changes they've had to make. The problem with the changes they make (though they've moved with a bit more velocity lately) is the HS team would make changes at a glacial pace - allowing clear mechanics problems to persist for far too long or just not change them at all. This is natural because to make changes means you have to admit you screwed up. When you stamp "Final" on something and release it you are less inclined to revise it than when its in a draft stage. Anyone that's worked in a production environment understands this. In a PTR or beta environment the team is more free to make changes because that's precisely what that environment is for - testing the content and tweaking it. I saw this quite clearly in HS Alpha and Beta. We saw dozens of changes to cards as they calibrated the cards and their interactions with one another. The PTR will allow a more polished and balanced product to be released live.
Addendum: WOW's PTR is not just for "major bugs" but also for balancing new powers and abilities (analogous to new cards in HS) and the complex interactions of the various powers and abilities of characters as they scale with gear.
You know that won't happen as it is against the policy to design cards for a certain target audience. Between the lines you also imply they are not that good in design. They won't except that. And by the way, if you let the masses decide nothing comes of it.
You can't fix unethical card design by a public verdict.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
PTR is nice to have, in order to fix bugs in games that can have bugs. HS is not one of them. And no, T5 does not care about balance, anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn't played the game long enough.
They care about the financial value, the EV and those sweet numbers that go high-high on each expansion-release. And a PTR would totally ruin that, because (like so many people already pointed out) - the players are not going to buy the packs in order to try most of the cards and see what they can do with them, they will just craft the good ones.
“If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” ― George Bernard Shaw
EU Legend: S52 (ZooHeal Lock); S76 (Highlander Hunter);
They don't even let us test the cards by having a launch week tavern brawl with the premade decks. Blizzard keeps sales of HS content high with mystery. If people knew how disappointing Rumble and Boomsday were going to be, sales would have suffered.
To even attempt it "unethical card design" (whatever that means) would have to exist. As it doesn't it's a moot point.
Arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. You may be good at chess, but the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces down, take a shit on the table, and strut around like its victorious.
I think he meant unfun or pushed infinite value card.
The problem is that you'd have a more balanced metagame, which is true, but it will be stale from day 1, with no new decks occurring during its lifecycle because it was solved prior to the launch. You'd gain more balance but less discovery.
one of the major spots in Hearthstone year is the 1st week of an expansion's release, letting the players enjoy opening packs in the PTR will erase the hype in these people when the expansion is actually released, they will open packs and then play until they get bored, which will lead to less money, unless the PTR Players cant open packs with gold, because PTR doesnt count, so i will spend my gold in a place that doesnt count my gold and then save my gold for the next Expansion, and each time i will enjoy a new expansion with never ending gold.
example. now i have 3k. i opened 30 packs in PTR, i stopped, then went to farming gold ( only daily quests ), and reached 5k or 8k, either i collect more or stop at that and each time i open packs with that amount for free.
No.
Have you ever played the wow test server? It's nothing like live, it's usually walled off and only certain things get tested on a schedule plus no loot drops from the bosses or raids. Wow has a test server and balance patches so I don't see why you think it would help with balance.
It wouldn't work with a card game, you need a big enough sample size to form a meta and you cannot ensure you'd have enough players plus if the decks are already figured out before the expansion then it takes all the fun out of it.
Nah, it would just kill the fun first days of the new meta as all the decks would be perfected on release, also Activision Blizzard isn't exactly known for caring about PTR/beta feedback.
A Test Server is a great idea, but using it for releasing expansions early would be a massive waste. It's already depressing enough that the newness of meta is beaten to death within a week or two in wide release.
What they need it for is new game modes. If they can't test how new modes would play out, they'll always be to afraid to release any. And if they don't innovate in game modes they're going to wither away.
Just wanted to highlight this because it's a great point. They should be able to handle balancing 135 cards by themselves. If they actually need a PTR and thousands of players to see if a card isn't balanced or that a certain combo is too powerful, well, then they really do suck and should hire some better testers. Again, their sets are pretty small compared to a game like Magic.
Ready for action!
For spoiling the metagame after expansions: NO! Others have explained why. Emergency fixes like the one to Corridor Creeper is much better imo!
For testing card nerfs and tweaks: Why not?
Plusses:
Problems:
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
The only credible complaint I'm seeing is that having a PTR would result in a resolved meta on day 1. As it is, the meta largely resolves within two weeks of launch. So having a PTR eliminates this two week period of variety. I don't find this argument very persuasive. Most people won't use the PTR. Only a fraction of the player base uses the WOW or OW PTRs today. And those that would use the HS PTR are primarily using it so they can figure out what the meta should be. And those players won't mind finding it out sooner rather than later. Most HS players are casual. They don't play the meta optimized decks so the meta resolving sooner won't really effect them. The primary benefit of the PTR is we won't have to suffer from broken mechanics for weeks or months while the HS dev team works up the gumption to make nerfs. I've yet to see a compelling argument against a PTR.
Is there a point to this thread? Obviously you aren''t going to listen to reason, so what is the point of discussing.
Dumb idea is just dumb.
Yes, the point is to discuss the topic. Not being convinced by your argument isn't the same as not listening to your argument. Maybe you forgot there was a months long beta testing for HS before it went live. That seemed to work fine.
You've been given plenty of reasons, you've just ignored them. I'll give you a nice list.
So you either kill the game's economy - thus killing the game - or don't have enough people playing a PTR to collect any meaningful data. Either way you have to reveal all the cards much further in advance, reducing the hype build-up. Let's move away from playing an expansion early, since that idea is clearly insane, and instead focus on something other people have brought up - having a PTR to test card nerfs.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
I said a compelling reason. As you probably know, whether an argument is compelling is a matter of opinion. So you can have your opinion and I can have mine. But let's take each of these arguments in order and I'll explain why I think they aren't compelling.
I've yet to see anyone offer credible evidence that "the hype of the expansion build-up" is something to be valued to the point that we should favor it over an effective testing of new content. Hearthstone's initial beta lasted for 4 months but didn't seem to prejudice its going live. Look at other games such as WOW with extended betas yet it doesn't prejudice its going live. So is this a reason to consider? Sure. Is it a compelling or credible reason? Jury is still out and I'd say it's likely not.
Testing functions don't require the entire player base or even a majority of the player base to participate. Do you think betas involve the majority of a player base? And the players that will participate in the PTR will likely be the most competitive players who are setting the meta. So it's certainly more likely the PTR will resolve towards the meta not the "false meta".
Maybe you don't understand how PTRs work or beta tests in general. They aren't live forever. They are live for a period of time. The PTR would be open for a set period of time before the expansion goes live and would close when the expansion goes live. You don't have to think too hard to figure this out.
So I'll repeat - I've seen some reasons but I've yet to see any compelling or credible reasons.
Credible evidence? How about just common sense.
Guess you've got it all figured out. Apply to Blizzard or petition them with your grand idea. We're all eagerly awaiting implementation with bated breath...
Ready for action!
I'll say again - why not just release the expansion a month earlier? What purpose does a PTR serve here, except to spoil the contents of the expansion a month before release? The hype before an expansion releases is absolutely critical - if we know what cards are good and what cards aren't weeks in advance, there's no reason to buy the pre-order, or even any large amount of packs, since you can just craft the cards that you know are good for the already-figured-out meta.
WoW has a PTR to test for major bugs and things like that. The fact that WoW has numerous ways you can tweak balance also allows them to make balance changes based on player feedback. Hearthstone doesn't have this. All balance changes are either large number tweaks or functional changes, and all of these need much more data behind them because they are such large changes.
I genuinely don't understand how you expect a PTR to function. What is its purpose? What changes do you expect to occur in it? If you could lay out a timeline and how you think it would function that might help me understand where you're coming from, but as it is I can't see how this wouldn't just be worse for Hearthstone with zero upside.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
The current internal test environment is clearly inadequate as we can see from the number of changes they've had to make. The problem with the changes they make (though they've moved with a bit more velocity lately) is the HS team would make changes at a glacial pace - allowing clear mechanics problems to persist for far too long or just not change them at all. This is natural because to make changes means you have to admit you screwed up. When you stamp "Final" on something and release it you are less inclined to revise it than when its in a draft stage. Anyone that's worked in a production environment understands this. In a PTR or beta environment the team is more free to make changes because that's precisely what that environment is for - testing the content and tweaking it. I saw this quite clearly in HS Alpha and Beta. We saw dozens of changes to cards as they calibrated the cards and their interactions with one another. The PTR will allow a more polished and balanced product to be released live.
Addendum: WOW's PTR is not just for "major bugs" but also for balancing new powers and abilities (analogous to new cards in HS) and the complex interactions of the various powers and abilities of characters as they scale with gear.