Ok, I apologise in advance for the slightly click-baity title. I'm not really talking about "cheating" in the full sense of the word.
But instead what I am thinking about, is the use of OverWolf (and in particular) the Hearthstone app for it. You see, I have noticed very strongly that the use of the Hearthstone app guiding me into which cards to draft raises my winrate more than a little significantly. By comparison, when I utilise the software, then my number of wins is usually enough (on average) to maintain an infinite run. However, when I don't use the software and instead I decide to try "winging it" and picking what I "think" is the best choice, rather than what has the best score or synergy etc, then obviously my win total plummets significantly barring the odd good run.
So what does this tell me? Well, first it tells me that I must really suck at draft-picking! Hahaha! No big revelation there - drafting is a difficult skill and some find it easier than others. But it also tells me that there is a significant advantage to using this tool.
So what? We already have the Innkeeper / HS Companion / etc. Yes we do - these are useful tools, but only really simulate the use of pen and paper, making notes about the game so far, what has been played, what cards you have left etc. All this is very easy to do yourself in "analogue" if you so wanted. So not really an advantage.
But Arena card suggesters? These feel a little different to me. They are doing something that you cant do yourself. They are telling you which are the best cards and what synergies they have. (You may be able to work out the synergy part with enough experience, but you cant know what rating cards have, especially since they change).
So I find myself wondering whether this is technically cheating the system somewhat? Now, an argument against the idea might be that it "isnt disallowed, so anyone can do it, right?" Well, yes... and no. These 3rd party software tools are not packaged as part of the game and there is no suggestion to use them anywhere. So for many players they will not even realise that other players are gaining a significant advantage. Maybe to some people that's not a big thing or they don't care etc. That's fine. But I'm interested to see what other people think about this.
I wouldn't expect people to stop using it or anything - I mean, I'm happy to. But when I come across a deck where I can tell the opponent has picked some really silly cards, it does feel a little guilty. At least briefly before I slurp up the free win. XD
I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
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I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
Very true. Interestingly, I've noticed that in tournaments, you see the players making quite extensive notes every game. I assume they track their own cards too, especially if playing a complicated deck etc.
I don't think it's unfair to use these tools. They provide advice just like streamers or friends can provide advice. Additionally, using statistical analysis to make better decision is obviously allowed in hearthstone. Many players keep track of deck tiers using statistical analysis. It's silly to argue that streamlining of various allowed practices should not be allowed because everyone's definition of what counts as too convenient will be different.
I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
If trackers were banned, you wouldn't use pen and paper. You'd just open up a spreadsheet and do it electronically, which wouldn't really take you that much longer than using a tracker. Furthermore, on topic of "The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide," using something that helps make Arena picks is more about convenience (because tier list websites exist) than the time it saves.
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Assuming most of players play on PC's, there are so many alternatives to pen and paper - especially when it comes down to decktracker. You can simply screenshot a deck and mark dots close to a card u drew/played to know whats left in the deck. And what then? Is using paint giving you and advantage over actual paper and pen? I guess it does - ultimately it'll make your turn faster and more efficient. It still doesn't play for you so it has marginal impact in my opinion.
As for the arena draw helper - I am not sure. Some algorithms are pure bs and good players would pick different cards sometimes just because they know what they are doing. Still, if it does in fact change 'your' winratio, it doesn't rly say that your enemy didn't use such tool and you just won by yourself or was it in fact just that - a half decent draw.
Overall it's a grey area for me. I have nothing against the deck trackers, i'd gladly welcome built in feature like that.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules. But it's not.
If using Heartarena to draft your Arena deck is cheating, then so is netdecking. In each case you are not actually building a deck yourself but relying on other people's work.
The fact that it is made convenient in the form of an overlay app is no different from Blizzard making it easy for people to netdeck by allowing you to import a deck simply by copying a deck string.
actually i had a worse win rate when using hearth arena, so i stopped using it. too often it made me draft the "safe" midrangey cards/decks that will get you a guaranteed 3 wins or so, while you sometimes should pick the more risky thing which gives you tons of value or can turn a game around when played.
i look up ratings every now and then when i get offered 3 really good cards and don't really know which one is the best to pick
If using Heartarena to draft your Arena deck is cheating, then so is netdecking. In each case you are not actually building a deck yourself but relying on other people's work.
If using a software program to track a digital game in real time is cheating, then using a pen and paper instead of a rock slab and chisel to write notes is cheating, too.
The reality is you can do all of the things HA/Overwolf does for drafting, anyway. Whether it's your own scores in a spreadsheet or you use the online tier-list sites, you can get the info. It's really just a matter of integration and ease of use.
I agree with the first paragraph - because to me, that is what a deck tracker does. But my personal opinion is that the Arena helper does something that you simply couldn't do with pen and paper. You don't have knowledge of what is considered good and bad cards. You mention that you can use online tier sites - but that is what the Arena helper does anyway. And perhaps those tier sites are part of the problem?
To answer a previously mentioned point, there are more than a handful of people who regard netdecking as (if not cheating by the exact definition) a form of bad sportsmanship - I'm not one of these people, but I've certainly come across that view, even on these forums.
Actually, when I stopped using HearthArena, my winrates are way higher. At first I started to disagree with some picks and then I stopped using it completely. Heartharena is too much focused on value of the cards and not on general deck building. If you use HA you will always miss something in the deck. You will end up having not enough early game, you deck will be too greedy, not enough taunts etc. It will never fix weak parts of your deck. My first 12 win I achieved after I stopped using HA. Actually it was the second arena run when I abandoned it.
I tend to use it in an advisory capacity. In terms of drafting a deck with synergy / good value cards, then I'm usually ok. I tend to stumble when it comes to the difficult choices ; or picking cards that are amazing in Standard, but I forget they need a ton of deck support for etc. The tracker number makes me think twice about picking it, as I have to think : Wait, why is that so low?
That said, I watched Kripp draft a double Jan'alai deck which was funny considering it is only rated at about 24 points for some reason
Heartharena sounds like something I *should* use, being as how my highest finish in Arena is 6-3, but I can't bring myself to do it somehow.
It's like Deck Tracker. I probably *should* use one, but i don't play regularly, nor to a high enough level, to warrent that sort of assistance. If I do get to time to play more than one game at a time I have a printed list of my Deck that I tick off and keep track that way.
I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
If trackers were banned, you wouldn't use pen and paper. You'd just open up a spreadsheet and do it electronically, which wouldn't really take you that much longer than using a tracker. Furthermore, on topic of "The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide," using something that helps make Arena picks is more about convenience (because tier list websites exist) than the time it saves.
Yes, a spreadsheet might be fast enough to avoid losing turn time, but what about a 'suggester'? I mean, there is a mathematically-based 'best play' that can be calculated based on the chance of them having certain cards, the chance of you drawing cards, and the value involved in the interaction. This could be computed by a spreadsheet, or even a pencil and paper, but it would take far longer than a turn. It is the basis of how bots are implemented. Would a bot that just tells you what card to play be cheating? I mean, the result could, theoretically, be arrived at with pencil an paper, given enough time.
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Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
If trackers were banned, you wouldn't use pen and paper. You'd just open up a spreadsheet and do it electronically, which wouldn't really take you that much longer than using a tracker. Furthermore, on topic of "The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide," using something that helps make Arena picks is more about convenience (because tier list websites exist) than the time it saves.
Yes, a spreadsheet might be fast enough to avoid losing turn time, but what about a 'suggester'? I mean, there is a mathematically-based 'best play' that can be calculated based on the chance of them having certain cards, the chance of you drawing cards, and the value involved in the interaction. This could be computed by a spreadsheet, or even a pencil and paper, but it would take far longer than a turn. It is the basis of how bots are implemented. Would a bot that just tells you what card to play be cheating? I mean, the result could, theoretically, be arrived at with pencil an paper, given enough time.
....what? Deck trackers don't do this. I don't know by what basis Blizzard determines "can be done by pen and paper", but surely turn time is considered. If you can't do it manually in your turn time, you shouldn't have software that can do it for you either.
Your paragraph is assuming a lot of things that won't necessarily be true in game, that a computer would have to assume. People don't play optimally, don't make optimal mulligans, and don't always have optimized decklists.
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To me the biggest issue is not including a deck tracker in the game. The people who don't use them are the ones that can't (mobile users) or the ones that dont know about them (new players). Those are dumb reasons to be at a disadvantage. This would not be a hard feature for Blizzard to implement considering there are already so many out there. For those that dont want it for whatever reason, just make it an option
To me the biggest issue is not including a deck tracker in the game. The people who don't use them are the ones that can't (mobile users) or the ones that dont know about them (new players). Those are dumb reasons to be at a disadvantage. This would not be a hard feature for Blizzard to implement considering there are already so many out there. For those that dont want it for whatever reason, just make it an option
Idk .
To be honest I can’t see a difference in my wr using a decktracker or not. Even tho I play very little arena .
In constructed it’s the same. Probably that’s an experience aspect, but I like not having decktracker on (and even if, i hide my deck) and actually have to think about what is left in my deck.
To me the biggest issue is not including a deck tracker in the game. The people who don't use them are the ones that can't (mobile users) or the ones that dont know about them (new players). Those are dumb reasons to be at a disadvantage. This would not be a hard feature for Blizzard to implement considering there are already so many out there. For those that dont want it for whatever reason, just make it an option
Mobile users can use a deck tracker. Arcane tracker works well.
To me the biggest issue is not including a deck tracker in the game. The people who don't use them are the ones that can't (mobile users) or the ones that dont know about them (new players). Those are dumb reasons to be at a disadvantage. This would not be a hard feature for Blizzard to implement considering there are already so many out there. For those that dont want it for whatever reason, just make it an option
There has been a mobile app (at least on android) for a few years now and it was recently (bought?) added as part of HS Decktracker. Really nice app (originally called Arcane Tracker) for mobile.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules. But it's not.
If using Heartarena to draft your Arena deck is cheating, then so is netdecking. In each case you are not actually building a deck yourself but relying on other people's work.
The fact that it is made convenient in the form of an overlay app is no different from Blizzard making it easy for people to netdeck by allowing you to import a deck simply by copying a deck string.
The most fun part of any CCG was always, for me, inventing cool ways to make whatever cards I had work together in the best way I could. And seeing ways to fit new cards from sets coming out, into my existing cards in cool new ways.
Hearthstone is pretty much a let down in this regard. Each class, in each set, has one obviously powerful card (or two) and that card WILL be in your deck and everything built around it, if you want to be competitive in ranked. So the deck construction happens at a much smaller scale, add a few of these / remove a few of those.
Also note that deck construction is not part of the actual competitive scene -- there aren't as far as i know any hearthstone 'draft' or 'sealed' style tournaments. If there were, then i'm willing to bet assistance from tools like we are discussing would be banned.
Actually i'm a little surprised any helper apps are allowed in a tournament setting (ie, marking all seen cards in their deck). Sure the comentaters would have them, they are great for illustrating whats going on, but IMO if its a tournament setting (a lan tournament specifically) where they actually could enforce this rule, why not? In all other situations its just not enforceable.
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Ok, I apologise in advance for the slightly click-baity title.
I'm not really talking about "cheating" in the full sense of the word.
But instead what I am thinking about, is the use of OverWolf (and in particular) the Hearthstone app for it.
You see, I have noticed very strongly that the use of the Hearthstone app guiding me into which cards to draft raises my winrate more than a little significantly.
By comparison, when I utilise the software, then my number of wins is usually enough (on average) to maintain an infinite run.
However, when I don't use the software and instead I decide to try "winging it" and picking what I "think" is the best choice, rather than what has the best score or synergy etc, then obviously my win total plummets significantly barring the odd good run.
So what does this tell me?
Well, first it tells me that I must really suck at draft-picking! Hahaha! No big revelation there - drafting is a difficult skill and some find it easier than others.
But it also tells me that there is a significant advantage to using this tool.
So what? We already have the Innkeeper / HS Companion / etc.
Yes we do - these are useful tools, but only really simulate the use of pen and paper, making notes about the game so far, what has been played, what cards you have left etc. All this is very easy to do yourself in "analogue" if you so wanted. So not really an advantage.
But Arena card suggesters? These feel a little different to me. They are doing something that you cant do yourself. They are telling you which are the best cards and what synergies they have. (You may be able to work out the synergy part with enough experience, but you cant know what rating cards have, especially since they change).
So I find myself wondering whether this is technically cheating the system somewhat?
Now, an argument against the idea might be that it "isnt disallowed, so anyone can do it, right?"
Well, yes... and no. These 3rd party software tools are not packaged as part of the game and there is no suggestion to use them anywhere. So for many players they will not even realise that other players are gaining a significant advantage.
Maybe to some people that's not a big thing or they don't care etc. That's fine.
But I'm interested to see what other people think about this.
I wouldn't expect people to stop using it or anything - I mean, I'm happy to. But when I come across a deck where I can tell the opponent has picked some really silly cards, it does feel a little guilty.
At least briefly before I slurp up the free win. XD
I've never understood the 'pen and paper' rationale they use. The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide. I also think deck trackers are cheating for the same reason - if one did have to take notes on paper they would be left with a shorter turn, especially if they wrote down everything the tracker tracks. For the Arena tool, you could come to the forums and post the picks and get feedback from members, or you could study the deck as it's being built and do manual analysis, but how many arena runs would you be able to do in a gaming session?
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Very true.
Interestingly, I've noticed that in tournaments, you see the players making quite extensive notes every game. I assume they track their own cards too, especially if playing a complicated deck etc.
I don't think it's unfair to use these tools. They provide advice just like streamers or friends can provide advice. Additionally, using statistical analysis to make better decision is obviously allowed in hearthstone. Many players keep track of deck tiers using statistical analysis. It's silly to argue that streamlining of various allowed practices should not be allowed because everyone's definition of what counts as too convenient will be different.
If trackers were banned, you wouldn't use pen and paper. You'd just open up a spreadsheet and do it electronically, which wouldn't really take you that much longer than using a tracker. Furthermore, on topic of "The effectiveness of these tools is the time they save, not the function they provide," using something that helps make Arena picks is more about convenience (because tier list websites exist) than the time it saves.
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Assuming most of players play on PC's, there are so many alternatives to pen and paper - especially when it comes down to decktracker. You can simply screenshot a deck and mark dots close to a card u drew/played to know whats left in the deck. And what then? Is using paint giving you and advantage over actual paper and pen? I guess it does - ultimately it'll make your turn faster and more efficient. It still doesn't play for you so it has marginal impact in my opinion.
As for the arena draw helper - I am not sure. Some algorithms are pure bs and good players would pick different cards sometimes just because they know what they are doing. Still, if it does in fact change 'your' winratio, it doesn't rly say that your enemy didn't use such tool and you just won by yourself or was it in fact just that - a half decent draw.
Overall it's a grey area for me. I have nothing against the deck trackers, i'd gladly welcome built in feature like that.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules. But it's not.
If using Heartarena to draft your Arena deck is cheating, then so is netdecking. In each case you are not actually building a deck yourself but relying on other people's work.
The fact that it is made convenient in the form of an overlay app is no different from Blizzard making it easy for people to netdeck by allowing you to import a deck simply by copying a deck string.
actually i had a worse win rate when using hearth arena, so i stopped using it. too often it made me draft the "safe" midrangey cards/decks that will get you a guaranteed 3 wins or so, while you sometimes should pick the more risky thing which gives you tons of value or can turn a game around when played.
i look up ratings every now and then when i get offered 3 really good cards and don't really know which one is the best to pick
Now I've seen that can of worms opened before! :-D
I agree with the first paragraph - because to me, that is what a deck tracker does. But my personal opinion is that the Arena helper does something that you simply couldn't do with pen and paper. You don't have knowledge of what is considered good and bad cards.
You mention that you can use online tier sites - but that is what the Arena helper does anyway. And perhaps those tier sites are part of the problem?
To answer a previously mentioned point, there are more than a handful of people who regard netdecking as (if not cheating by the exact definition) a form of bad sportsmanship - I'm not one of these people, but I've certainly come across that view, even on these forums.
I tend to use it in an advisory capacity. In terms of drafting a deck with synergy / good value cards, then I'm usually ok. I tend to stumble when it comes to the difficult choices ; or picking cards that are amazing in Standard, but I forget they need a ton of deck support for etc.
The tracker number makes me think twice about picking it, as I have to think : Wait, why is that so low?
That said, I watched Kripp draft a double Jan'alai deck which was funny considering it is only rated at about 24 points for some reason
Heartharena sounds like something I *should* use, being as how my highest finish in Arena is 6-3, but I can't bring myself to do it somehow.
It's like Deck Tracker. I probably *should* use one, but i don't play regularly, nor to a high enough level, to warrent that sort of assistance. If I do get to time to play more than one game at a time I have a printed list of my Deck that I tick off and keep track that way.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
Yes, a spreadsheet might be fast enough to avoid losing turn time, but what about a 'suggester'? I mean, there is a mathematically-based 'best play' that can be calculated based on the chance of them having certain cards, the chance of you drawing cards, and the value involved in the interaction. This could be computed by a spreadsheet, or even a pencil and paper, but it would take far longer than a turn. It is the basis of how bots are implemented. Would a bot that just tells you what card to play be cheating? I mean, the result could, theoretically, be arrived at with pencil an paper, given enough time.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
....what? Deck trackers don't do this. I don't know by what basis Blizzard determines "can be done by pen and paper", but surely turn time is considered. If you can't do it manually in your turn time, you shouldn't have software that can do it for you either.
Your paragraph is assuming a lot of things that won't necessarily be true in game, that a computer would have to assume. People don't play optimally, don't make optimal mulligans, and don't always have optimized decklists.
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Join me at Out of Cards!
To me the biggest issue is not including a deck tracker in the game. The people who don't use them are the ones that can't (mobile users) or the ones that dont know about them (new players). Those are dumb reasons to be at a disadvantage. This would not be a hard feature for Blizzard to implement considering there are already so many out there. For those that dont want it for whatever reason, just make it an option
Idk .
To be honest I can’t see a difference in my wr using a decktracker or not. Even tho I play very little arena .
In constructed it’s the same. Probably that’s an experience aspect, but I like not having decktracker on (and even if, i hide my deck) and actually have to think about what is left in my deck.
Mobile users can use a deck tracker. Arcane tracker works well.
Still no tracker on iOS though....
*sad face*
The most fun part of any CCG was always, for me, inventing cool ways to make whatever cards I had work together in the best way I could. And seeing ways to fit new cards from sets coming out, into my existing cards in cool new ways.
Hearthstone is pretty much a let down in this regard. Each class, in each set, has one obviously powerful card (or two) and that card WILL be in your deck and everything built around it, if you want to be competitive in ranked. So the deck construction happens at a much smaller scale, add a few of these / remove a few of those.
Also note that deck construction is not part of the actual competitive scene -- there aren't as far as i know any hearthstone 'draft' or 'sealed' style tournaments. If there were, then i'm willing to bet assistance from tools like we are discussing would be banned.
Actually i'm a little surprised any helper apps are allowed in a tournament setting (ie, marking all seen cards in their deck). Sure the comentaters would have them, they are great for illustrating whats going on, but IMO if its a tournament setting (a lan tournament specifically) where they actually could enforce this rule, why not? In all other situations its just not enforceable.