The new team in place have taken a really broad view on class balance. They found wild growth to be in 95% of Druid meta decks, generally tier 1 and 2. They made a tough call, but I think we’re looking at solid balance after the last slew of Brode Era power creeped cards are rotated.
Hmm on that basis you could take out a lot of other cards. Animal companion, Eaglehorn bow and Kill command. Staples in every single hunter deck since launch and in multiple tier 1 decks for most expansions.
As usual you have NO idea what you are talking about. Deathrattle Hunter doesn't run any of these cards. Minion oriented Hunter decks often omit the Bow. And Hunter hasn't had very many Tier One decks.
We get that you hate Hunter. Could you please stop spamming the same BS all the time?
Hmm i'm not sure what the right decisions would have been BUT i think they should have procotions in nerfing such iconic cards. The best way in my oppinions would be to look at an iconic card like wild growth or fiery waraxe and tell the community - we will nerf this card for a 4 weeks priod and look how the class does. They then have 3 options. Nerf it in the way they had it, nerf it in a stronger/weaker way or they see that a class would struggle to much without it as druid right now and warrior for a long time does.
They make ajustements so big that the impact of the nerfs are so huge that the meta goes in a absurd different way. And yes the cards that really are the problem where neever adressed.
We have two great expaples:
Wild growth--> spreading plague was nerfed because it was to strong and getting UI at the same time was overkill, then they added cads like branching path and oaken summens after that they put the nail in the coffin with cards like ferocius howl and psychic juicemelone. All these cards except for spreading plague were not touched and instead annihilated a card that was iconic and flavor to the class to its core.
FWA--> it was a good card sure but never oppressing until pirates came in to the picture in a big way. So they nerfed smalltime buccaneer. Realizing that piratewarrior is still to powerfull they nerfed FWA and then after they realized oh wow that little shit "i'm in charge now" is to strong they nerfed that. Yes cards like FWA and WG were added in almost all of they decks BUT we see those cards all the time and not oblz
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
FWA--> it was a good card sure but never oppressing until pirates came in to the picture in a big way. So they nerfed smalltime buccaneer. Realizing that piratewarrior is still to powerfull they nerfed FWA and then after they realized oh wow that little shit "i'm in charge now" is to strong they nerfed that. Yes cards like FWA and WG were added in almost all of they decks BUT we see those cards all the time and not oblz.
NO.
Fiery "Win" Axe was played in EVERY Warrior deck since the game's inception, and was one of the most BROKEN cards in the history of the game. It was nerfed because the Evergreen set cannot include auto include cards.
There will be more strong cards in the Basic/Classic set that will either be nerfed or HOF'ed at some point. At least one of the Rogue spells is gonna go. This patch hit Druid, the last one hit Mage, etc. No class (even Hunter) is exempt.
Stop with this nonsense that FWA was nerfed because of Pirate Warrior.
are you guys trolling? wild growth was the identity. druid always ramped. its what they do. they ramp but that turn they lose tempo.
they shoudnt have printed stall cards for druid. period. plague and ui made ramping and naturalize very strong.
blizzard talked about design space and identity all the time in the past. but i guess they are changing their stance about it and not admitting that they fucked up.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP's assessment, although I also agree in-that these identity cards were problematic. Drastic action was a painful and (hopefully) necessary response towards a (...hopefully) better future. If/when Preparation takes a hit, I imagine this thread will return: personally I'd love to see it, so we can maybe finally stop balancing the entire class around this one card, but it will be a serious gut-punch for Rogue players (assuming the surrounding spells are not subsequently buffed to offset - and it won't happen - so they will be ruined).
Behold, foolish interlopers! I am commanding this mortal to spread the will of the Scourge throughout the interwebs, encouraging you to seek out me, Archlich Kel'Thuzad! Now coming to you as the tenth class of Hearthstone!
I am a finalist in this Class Creation Competition, so if you could give it a look I would be greatly appreciative <3
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
You don’t get it.
Blizzard needs to keep on printing strong cards. If some evergreen card like Prep makes these strong cards OP, then the former is the card that has to go. Otherwise, it will limit design space FOREVER. And Prep is almost certainly going to be nerfed or HOFed sooner or later. Quest Rogue, still going strong after three nerfs, could not exist without Prep.
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
You don’t get it.
Blizzard needs to keep on printing strong cards. If some evergreen card like Prep makes these strong cards OP, then the former is the card that has to go. Otherwise, it will limit design space FOREVER. And Prep is almost certainly going to be nerfed or HOFed sooner or later. Quest Rogue, still going strong after three nerfs, could not exist without Prep.
If they are unhappy with the classic set, then they should rotate the cards and put old expansion cards in. People love playing with these cards and should be able to do so in wild. If Rogue loose Prep, then the class can only play one thing and that is tempo/aggro. There are no more combo or miracle rogue.
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
You don’t get it.
Blizzard needs to keep on printing strong cards. If some evergreen card like Prep makes these strong cards OP, then the former is the card that has to go. Otherwise, it will limit design space FOREVER. And Prep is almost certainly going to be nerfed or HOFed sooner or later. Quest Rogue, still going strong after three nerfs, could not exist without Prep.
If they are unhappy with the classic set, then they should rotate the cards and put old expansion cards in. People love playing with these cards and should be able to do so in wild. If Rogue loose Prep, then the class can only play one thing and that is tempo/aggro. There are no more combo or miracle rogue.
There is no reason to do away with the Classic set in its entirety. Only the broken cards have to be removed. Prep will go sooner or later. And it won’t be the only Rogue card to go. Now that Druid is in check, Rogue has by far the best Evergreen set.
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
You don’t get it.
Blizzard needs to keep on printing strong cards. If some evergreen card like Prep makes these strong cards OP, then the former is the card that has to go. Otherwise, it will limit design space FOREVER. And Prep is almost certainly going to be nerfed or HOFed sooner or later. Quest Rogue, still going strong after three nerfs, could not exist without Prep.
If they are unhappy with the classic set, then they should rotate the cards and put old expansion cards in. People love playing with these cards and should be able to do so in wild. If Rogue loose Prep, then the class can only play one thing and that is tempo/aggro. There are no more combo or miracle rogue.
There is no reason to do away with the Classic set in its entirety. Only the broken cards have to be removed. Prep will go sooner or later. And it won’t be the only Rogue card to go. Now that Druid is in check, Rogue has by far the best Evergreen set.
There is a reason to rethink the whole classic set setup. Like they have to print a new priest AOE every 6 mounths, so Priest have a chance in standard. Just move one of the old once into standard (example: the next two expantions, dragonfire potion is in the rotation, the next two it could be something different.) And as said in this threat, these card like Prep, Wild Growth etc. is why the classes are as they are. If you remove it (forever) then there are no identity left for the classes. If Blizzard want the classes to chance things up in standard they should rotate some of the classic set (and do it more often).
Thing is nerfs should balance the game, they should not obliterate whole classes.
Even if a nerf is applied in perspective, it needs a good timing, eg by supplying some viable options BEFORE the nerf.
If Basic/Classic set need a overhaul, apply more HoF and/or provide more viable cards instead pack fillers.
Extreme cycling of decks/classes in terms of powerlevel is equal to slapping your customers after having given them treats. How can this kind of game design be right?
FWA--> it was a good card sure but never oppressing until pirates came in to the picture in a big way. So they nerfed smalltime buccaneer. Realizing that piratewarrior is still to powerfull they nerfed FWA and then after they realized oh wow that little shit "i'm in charge now" is to strong they nerfed that. Yes cards like FWA and WG were added in almost all of they decks BUT we see those cards all the time and not oblz.
NO.
Fiery "Win" Axe was played in EVERY Warrior deck since the game's inception, and was one of the most BROKEN cards in the history of the game. It was nerfed because the Evergreen set cannot include auto include cards.
There will be more strong cards in the Basic/Classic set that will either be nerfed or HOF'ed at some point. At least one of the Rogue spells is gonna go. This patch hit Druid, the last one hit Mage, etc. No class (even Hunter) is exempt.
Stop with this nonsense that FWA was nerfed because of Pirate Warrior.
Here you are not right: yes, it was probably one of the strongest cards of the game; BUT Warrior was build around it. And it was NOT an issue until Pirate Warrior; since Warrior rarely used it to go face. But later it was so strong that Warrior simply used it to deal more face damage: until then it was no problem, only after Pirate Warrior and other Aggro-Warrior-Decks were created and Fiery War Axe was only used to deal 6 face damage for 2 mana, it became a problem. This and Arcanite reaper alone dealed 16 damage.
So as said before: best solution what everybody wanted was that you can't go face with Fiery War Axe. But since it's an basic-card (not even classic, but basic) and they don't want to make things too complicated they nerfed it to 3 mana. (althrough they should then simply reduced the attack by 1, then it would at least be viable for beginners).
Because of this we need a new evergreen-set for beginners and to make it not too expensive. Will never happen, because $$$; still would be an ideal solution, adding a new fiery war axe that simply can't go face.
FWA--> it was a good card sure but never oppressing until pirates came in to the picture in a big way. So they nerfed smalltime buccaneer. Realizing that piratewarrior is still to powerfull they nerfed FWA and then after they realized oh wow that little shit "i'm in charge now" is to strong they nerfed that. Yes cards like FWA and WG were added in almost all of they decks BUT we see those cards all the time and not oblz.
NO.
Fiery "Win" Axe was played in EVERY Warrior deck since the game's inception, and was one of the most BROKEN cards in the history of the game. It was nerfed because the Evergreen set cannot include auto include cards.
There will be more strong cards in the Basic/Classic set that will either be nerfed or HOF'ed at some point. At least one of the Rogue spells is gonna go. This patch hit Druid, the last one hit Mage, etc. No class (even Hunter) is exempt.
Stop with this nonsense that FWA was nerfed because of Pirate Warrior.
Here you are not right: yes, it was probably one of the strongest cards of the game; BUT Warrior was build around it. And it was NOT an issue until Pirate Warrior; since Warrior rarely used it to go face. But later it was so strong that Warrior simply used it to deal more face damage: until then it was no problem, only after Pirate Warrior and other Aggro-Warrior-Decks were created and Fiery War Axe was only used to deal 6 face damage for 2 mana, it became a problem. This and Arcanite reaper alone dealed 16 damage.
So as said before: best solution what everybody wanted was that you can't go face with Fiery War Axe. But since it's an basic-card (not even classic, but basic) and they don't want to make things too complicated they nerfed it to 3 mana. (althrough they should then simply reduced the attack by 1, then it would at least be viable for beginners).
Because of this we need a new evergreen-set for beginners and to make it not too expensive. Will never happen, because $$$; still would be an ideal solution, adding a new fiery war axe that simply can't go face.
Pirate Warrior was not the only Warrior deck to get hit with the nerf hammer. Remember OTK Worgen Warrior? How bout Patron Warrior? And although it was never nerfed WotOG, Dragon Warrior was a Tier One deck. One of many good Warrior decks at that time.
And every single one of them ran the broken win axe.
The problem is not in wild growth or other rump card. The problem is in too powerful cards and armor based strategy.
So the solution is to give Druid garbage like Duskfallen Aviana forever? No, that is not a solution.
People want to play with powerful cards. They don’t mind playing against powerful cards. They do NOT want to play with and against the SAME powerful cards forever.
I feel like HS keeps running into a problem of power versus interaction.
Doing powerful things is fine as long as those powerful things can be interacted with.
When you don't have enough ways to interact with what your opponent is doing, power pike cards really warp the game.
I sometimes wonder if this problem is created by some fundemental limitations of the game itself. Such as not being able to have actions take place on your opponents turn other than secrets, having no sideboard, or even only having so much space for text on cards.
You are making your own point invalid about Wild Growth nerf destroying Druid as you use Fiery War Axe in Warrior to compare it too. Warrior has 2 rank 1 decks atm.
Are those tier 1 decks tempo or aggro? From the OP: "In standard, without Fiery War Axe, Warrior needs an unreasonable amount of support for its tempo and aggro archtypes. As we've seen, they often don't come together. In the majority of standard metas these archtypes will be dead without careful focused support."
1. They can't check keep updating the game all the time to balance it out over and over, especially to people complaining.
2. It is hard to balance a game of any kind, including computer card games. (Though, perfect balance is only a theory. Even Chess is not balanced)
3. It is a free game, you didn't pay to join into this mess. (Though, you may have payed money in the mess).
4. If you really don't like anything regarded with this mess, play another game that will never be changed.
5. When I say "mess" I mean changes to the game that you either thought should have been done long ago or changes you think should have been done differently
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As usual you have NO idea what you are talking about. Deathrattle Hunter doesn't run any of these cards. Minion oriented Hunter decks often omit the Bow. And Hunter hasn't had very many Tier One decks.
We get that you hate Hunter. Could you please stop spamming the same BS all the time?
Hmm i'm not sure what the right decisions would have been BUT i think they should have procotions in nerfing such iconic cards. The best way in my oppinions would be to look at an iconic card like wild growth or fiery waraxe and tell the community - we will nerf this card for a 4 weeks priod and look how the class does. They then have 3 options. Nerf it in the way they had it, nerf it in a stronger/weaker way or they see that a class would struggle to much without it as druid right now and warrior for a long time does.
They make ajustements so big that the impact of the nerfs are so huge that the meta goes in a absurd different way. And yes the cards that really are the problem where neever adressed.
We have two great expaples:
Wild growth--> spreading plague was nerfed because it was to strong and getting UI at the same time was overkill, then they added cads like branching path and oaken summens after that they put the nail in the coffin with cards like ferocius howl and psychic juicemelone. All these cards except for spreading plague were not touched and instead annihilated a card that was iconic and flavor to the class to its core.
FWA--> it was a good card sure but never oppressing until pirates came in to the picture in a big way. So they nerfed smalltime buccaneer. Realizing that piratewarrior is still to powerfull they nerfed FWA and then after they realized oh wow that little shit "i'm in charge now" is to strong they nerfed that. Yes cards like FWA and WG were added in almost all of they decks BUT we see those cards all the time and not oblz
Evergreen strong early game cards will always be a problem, if they become a problem expect them to be nerfed to eternity
I agree. It's like if they nerfed Preperation it would Kill Rogue's class identity or Concecration.. These cards are very strong but only appear "broken" when Blizz prints overpowered cards that should be nerfed instead.
NO.
Fiery "Win" Axe was played in EVERY Warrior deck since the game's inception, and was one of the most BROKEN cards in the history of the game. It was nerfed because the Evergreen set cannot include auto include cards.
There will be more strong cards in the Basic/Classic set that will either be nerfed or HOF'ed at some point. At least one of the Rogue spells is gonna go. This patch hit Druid, the last one hit Mage, etc. No class (even Hunter) is exempt.
Stop with this nonsense that FWA was nerfed because of Pirate Warrior.
are you guys trolling? wild growth was the identity. druid always ramped. its what they do. they ramp but that turn they lose tempo.
they shoudnt have printed stall cards for druid. period. plague and ui made ramping and naturalize very strong.
blizzard talked about design space and identity all the time in the past. but i guess they are changing their stance about it and not admitting that they fucked up.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP's assessment, although I also agree in-that these identity cards were problematic. Drastic action was a painful and (hopefully) necessary response towards a (...hopefully) better future. If/when Preparation takes a hit, I imagine this thread will return: personally I'd love to see it, so we can maybe finally stop balancing the entire class around this one card, but it will be a serious gut-punch for Rogue players (assuming the surrounding spells are not subsequently buffed to offset - and it won't happen - so they will be ruined).
Behold, foolish interlopers! I am commanding this mortal to spread the will of the Scourge throughout the interwebs, encouraging you to seek out me, Archlich Kel'Thuzad! Now coming to you as the tenth class of Hearthstone!
I am a finalist in this Class Creation Competition, so if you could give it a look I would be greatly appreciative <3
You don’t get it.
Blizzard needs to keep on printing strong cards. If some evergreen card like Prep makes these strong cards OP, then the former is the card that has to go. Otherwise, it will limit design space FOREVER. And Prep is almost certainly going to be nerfed or HOFed sooner or later. Quest Rogue, still going strong after three nerfs, could not exist without Prep.
If they are unhappy with the classic set, then they should rotate the cards and put old expansion cards in. People love playing with these cards and should be able to do so in wild. If Rogue loose Prep, then the class can only play one thing and that is tempo/aggro. There are no more combo or miracle rogue.
There is no reason to do away with the Classic set in its entirety. Only the broken cards have to be removed. Prep will go sooner or later. And it won’t be the only Rogue card to go. Now that Druid is in check, Rogue has by far the best Evergreen set.
There is a reason to rethink the whole classic set setup. Like they have to print a new priest AOE every 6 mounths, so Priest have a chance in standard. Just move one of the old once into standard (example: the next two expantions, dragonfire potion is in the rotation, the next two it could be something different.) And as said in this threat, these card like Prep, Wild Growth etc. is why the classes are as they are. If you remove it (forever) then there are no identity left for the classes. If Blizzard want the classes to chance things up in standard they should rotate some of the classic set (and do it more often).
Thing is nerfs should balance the game, they should not obliterate whole classes.
Even if a nerf is applied in perspective, it needs a good timing, eg by supplying some viable options BEFORE the nerf.
If Basic/Classic set need a overhaul, apply more HoF and/or provide more viable cards instead pack fillers.
Extreme cycling of decks/classes in terms of powerlevel is equal to slapping your customers after having given them treats. How can this kind of game design be right?
Here you are not right: yes, it was probably one of the strongest cards of the game; BUT Warrior was build around it. And it was NOT an issue until Pirate Warrior; since Warrior rarely used it to go face. But later it was so strong that Warrior simply used it to deal more face damage: until then it was no problem, only after Pirate Warrior and other Aggro-Warrior-Decks were created and Fiery War Axe was only used to deal 6 face damage for 2 mana, it became a problem. This and Arcanite reaper alone dealed 16 damage.
So as said before: best solution what everybody wanted was that you can't go face with Fiery War Axe. But since it's an basic-card (not even classic, but basic) and they don't want to make things too complicated they nerfed it to 3 mana. (althrough they should then simply reduced the attack by 1, then it would at least be viable for beginners).
Because of this we need a new evergreen-set for beginners and to make it not too expensive. Will never happen, because $$$; still would be an ideal solution, adding a new fiery war axe that simply can't go face.
The problem is not in wild growth or other rump card. The problem is in too powerful cards and armor based strategy.
Pirate Warrior was not the only Warrior deck to get hit with the nerf hammer. Remember OTK Worgen Warrior? How bout Patron Warrior? And although it was never nerfed WotOG, Dragon Warrior was a Tier One deck. One of many good Warrior decks at that time.
And every single one of them ran the broken win axe.
EVERY SINGLE ONE.
So the solution is to give Druid garbage like Duskfallen Aviana forever? No, that is not a solution.
People want to play with powerful cards. They don’t mind playing against powerful cards. They do NOT want to play with and against the SAME powerful cards forever.
I feel like HS keeps running into a problem of power versus interaction.
Doing powerful things is fine as long as those powerful things can be interacted with.
When you don't have enough ways to interact with what your opponent is doing, power pike cards really warp the game.
I sometimes wonder if this problem is created by some fundemental limitations of the game itself. Such as not being able to have actions take place on your opponents turn other than secrets, having no sideboard, or even only having so much space for text on cards.
be kind and considerate
Are those tier 1 decks tempo or aggro? From the OP: "In standard, without Fiery War Axe, Warrior needs an unreasonable amount of support for its tempo and aggro archtypes. As we've seen, they often don't come together. In the majority of standard metas these archtypes will be dead without careful focused support."
Wild Growth and Nourish never were the problem i think Branching, Plague and UI were the real issue
I think we should recognize that
1. They can't check keep updating the game all the time to balance it out over and over, especially to people complaining.
2. It is hard to balance a game of any kind, including computer card games. (Though, perfect balance is only a theory. Even Chess is not balanced)
3. It is a free game, you didn't pay to join into this mess. (Though, you may have payed money in the mess).
4. If you really don't like anything regarded with this mess, play another game that will never be changed.
5. When I say "mess" I mean changes to the game that you either thought should have been done long ago or changes you think should have been done differently