Some cards in Hearthstone aren't just cards. They're class features expressed as cards. A hero power isn't enough to express class identity, and through Hearthstone's history, certain cards have completed the picture. And what happens when such a card is nerfed? The class is gutted in an irreparable way. Archtypes crumble, never to return except in momentary metas where all the right cards come together to fill the massive void. The devs may think they're balancing the game by nerfing such cards, but they're destroying the core of class balance and identity. They're also destroying our faith that they understand what makes their game work and what it's like to be a player. No two nerfs exemplify this more than Fiery War Axe and Wild Growth.
Wild Growth was a Druid class feature expressed as a card. Almost every Druid deck used it, and it enabled more late game strategies than any other card. It was clearly overpowered, but every Druid card has been made and balanced while keeping it in mind. Nerfing such a key card requires a complete rebalancing of the class. But we didn't get that, instead we get all of our decks destroyed and dust investment wasted. This nerf was made without preparation - nothing fills the void. And it's hard to have any faith that one or two sets can fix this. The devs have left themselves with the herculean task of filling this void in meta after meta - a task they are sure to fail at more often than not. Nourish was a good nerf, and Spreading Plague was a card that probably never should have been made. But nerfing Wild Growth was setting the Druid class on fire. This is the single worst nerf in Hearthstone's history. The least they could do is nerf Nourish and wait, adding cards to the next set that could fill the void of Wild Growth. The timing is an insult to Druid players.
In standard, without Fiery War Axe, Warrior needs an unreasonable amount of support for its tempo and aggro archtypes. As we've seen, they often don't come together. In the majority of standard metas these archtypes will be dead without careful focused support. Rush Warrior would likely be great right now if Fiery War Axe cost 2, and it might have an aggro deck too. Control Warrior also relied on Fiery War Axe, and although it has more basic/classic support, such support is purely removal. Fiery War Axe of old helped CW switch gears and attempt to kill you, which there's not enough support for anymore outside the soon to be rotating quest Warrior. What we're left with is tank up/fatigue strategies. It seems to be Warrior's fate now to always be one card away from having tempo strategies work, and always be hoping for extra redundant board clears in sets so it can repeatedly clear.
This game has hero powers and inherently different classes, and exceptional cards balance them. Those exceptional cards need to be recognized as the class features they are. To nerf them is to give yourself the herculean task of filling the void they leave over and over - or let the archtypes they enabled die. If you're going to nerf them, you need a solid consistent plan to support such archtypes in place before you nerf them. If you can't do this, then don't and stop wasting our dust investments.
Just because cards were old, doesn't mean they were good. If you want a game to succeed, you have to let it grow and evolve. Sometimes old cards are good. Sometimes they aren't.
Wild Growth revealed itself to be unhealthy at 2 mana as we all learned more about how druid and mana cheat work in HS.
We've seen what the developers think a classic/basic set should look like with Icicle, Pilfer, etc. They are not supposed to be cards that dominate a class and competitive play for all time. I think we'd all be better off if we started thinking of basic/classic as HS's first set, and not something that will be forever woven into the game.
Broken record time: this is the problem with the huge classic and basic set. It needs an entire revamping.
You sure must have it hard for getting 1-2 cards nerfed that constantly saw play in EVERY SINGLE deck or ARCHETYPE of the mentioned classes. When they'll give me back my Ice Lance and Ice Block OR find a better replacement in classic than the RNG spell generator no one is using - we can talk then.
I don't really sympathise that much with the other HoFed classes (Conceal for Rogue and Power Overwhelming for Warlock) but they sure as hell also felt it - especially all zoo/aggro warlocks with the loss of PO.
Did the Fiery War Axe and Wild Growth + Nourish nerfs were clean? Certainly not.
Were they not overkills of the cards? Certainly not and with both of those I sympathise.
But
If the cards are both UNIVERSALLY STRONG IN EVERY SITUATION, go into EVERY DECK and SEVERLY cripple other archetypes/classes or their means to response then the cards either need to get changed (the latest nerfs) or HOFed (Ice block, PO).
Pity that Blizzard as always made sure to nerf/destroy a full class (Druid) + most of the tier 2/counters offending decks and leave one full class of 4 archetypes without any meanigful nerfs/adjustments (Hunter)
I'm tired of Blizzards policy to have a cycle of "this is a X class expansion". This game will never be fun or "fair" for others if Blizzards answer to balance and having 9 classes is basically make 2-3 unusuable/garbage (example Druid, Shaman) 2-3 mediocre to niche/counter classes (example Mage, Warrior) and 2-3 OP/tier one warping the meta around them (example Hunter).
Why can they never think over the expansions and act ACCORDINGLY? I get it. It's hard and unpredictable. But that's what 2-3 nerf cycles should be for - to tone down the main offenders (all at once while having thought it over) and correct a second time making sure it is at least "somehow" balanced. The third cycle should be trying to bump counters and or decks that are "so so"/almost there.
weapons are strong.......but vulnerable to 1000 weapon removals and freezeface abilities, I dont think any of them need nerfing (except Kingsbane ,but they already did indirectly) So yeah nerfingFiery War Axe was a bad idea from developers.
As for Wild Growth, I kinda agere too ,developers should nerf Branching Paths instead, the card is bonkers.
War Axe did need a nerf, but adding the text "Cannot attack your opponent" would have been fine.
That's a good nerf, I wonder if Rush Warrior would run such a card. But Warrior needs an exceptional weapon in every standard meta. I think we all thought the nerf was made with this implicit promise so archtypes don't die. You'd think at this point they'd have it down to a science like MTG.
Hi devs. Warriors need a slightly unfair weapon with a .5 to 1 mana discount in every standard meta. It shouldn't be a control only weapon or we won't be able to actually use the tempo/aggro cards you print. Thank you.
The problem with these nerfs is that it shows that the developers dont understand their own game... FWA was good in almost all decks but they nerfed it because pirate warrior.... instead of just nerfing the pirates.....smh. Druid became crazy strong because they had gave them crazy strong cards like UI, spreading plague, branching paths, the hero card, or the jade mechanic back than. Wild growth was srong yes, but the fact that the whole fuckin class died because one card nerf is just not right.... The problam may had not been wild growth, it maybe had had too strong 4 drops that could follow up a turn 2 wild growth.
The fact that the developers dont really understand their own game is scary and can lead to people leave this game. Like me, who havent really played since august and just came back to rastakhan and not much has changed.
I'm tired of Blizzards policy to have a cycle of "this is a X class expansion". This game will never be fun or "fair" for others if Blizzards answer to balance and having 9 classes is basically make 2-3 unusuable/garbage (example Druid, Shaman) 2-3 mediocre to niche/counter classes (example Mage, Warrior) and 2-3 OP/tier one warping the meta around them (example Hunter).
Why can they never think over the expansions and act ACCORDINGLY? I get it. It's hard and unpredictable. But that's what 2-3 nerf cycles should be for - to tone down the main offenders (all at once while having thought it over) and correct a second time making sure it is at least "somehow" balanced. The third cycle should be trying to bump counters and or decks that are "so so"/almost there.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this. The "pet" vs "ignored" classes in certain expansions is so obvious and I strongly disagree with this dev philosophy. Building up Druid as the pet then nerfing Wild Growth to pull the rug out from under them is not cool. Not clean is an understatement.
Druid became crazy strong because they had gave them crazy strong cards like UI, spreading plague, branching paths, the hero card, or the jade mechanic back than.
This is wrong. Druid has always had a T1 or T2 deck. Druid has always been very strong because mana cheat is very strong.
Man, those druid tears and their ambition to write a long text is really smth. special nowadays.
Pre-nerf druid had godmode and TODAY its just a normal class. Wild grwoth in my opinion needs to cost 3 mana. Just look at ur collection and look at the 4 mana cards that can stall the game if played very early.
Playing against druid was a pain in the ass in every aspect. To summarize it was like playing against an aggressive tank that was so overpowered with almost non minions in his deck, just disgusting.
Druid deserves to be where he is now. No re-belancing and other shiat u wrote should and will happen.
Priest was bottom tier for a long time, but people like Zetalot still managed to hit high legend (priest only) every season. Guess what, he couldn't netdeck to hit legend. Now its up to the real druid mains to also do the same thing.
I don't play much Druid or like it very much. Just saying what needs to be said. Yes, it's been their pet class for awhile now and it's frustrating. The pet class(es) will always be frustrating. And the top top players of any class will almost always find a way to hit legend with it, but that's not saying much.
Maybe you are right, but killing a whole class with one nerf and without any replacement is also not right
It's unfortunate, yes. Because Wild Growth and Nourish were not nerfed sooner, most/all the cards that Druid currently has were designed with those two in mind. So the balance is off.
That said, I believe the present death of Druid may be overstated. I think that we've all just had WG/Nourish as a crutch for so long, we haven't figured out how to play without them.
To me, it seems like there should be a viable Treant/Token build waiting to be found since most of those cards don't need you to ramp to be powerful (although it obviously helped because mana cheat always helps).
Literally all I hear from this is "Waaaaah they nerfed my easy win extremely overpowered class that has been overpowered in literally every meta ever! Waaaah! Blizzard is big boogyman :'("
Literally all I hear from this is "Waaaaah they nerfed my easy win extremely overpowered class that has been overpowered in literally every meta ever! Waaaah! Blizzard is big boogyman :'("
Maybe you missed the post where I mention I don't really play Druid. Ironically I play hunter most, but have much more interest in playing it when everyone else isn't playing it too.
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Some cards in Hearthstone aren't just cards. They're class features expressed as cards. A hero power isn't enough to express class identity, and through Hearthstone's history, certain cards have completed the picture. And what happens when such a card is nerfed? The class is gutted in an irreparable way. Archtypes crumble, never to return except in momentary metas where all the right cards come together to fill the massive void. The devs may think they're balancing the game by nerfing such cards, but they're destroying the core of class balance and identity. They're also destroying our faith that they understand what makes their game work and what it's like to be a player. No two nerfs exemplify this more than Fiery War Axe and Wild Growth.
Wild Growth was a Druid class feature expressed as a card. Almost every Druid deck used it, and it enabled more late game strategies than any other card. It was clearly overpowered, but every Druid card has been made and balanced while keeping it in mind. Nerfing such a key card requires a complete rebalancing of the class. But we didn't get that, instead we get all of our decks destroyed and dust investment wasted. This nerf was made without preparation - nothing fills the void. And it's hard to have any faith that one or two sets can fix this. The devs have left themselves with the herculean task of filling this void in meta after meta - a task they are sure to fail at more often than not. Nourish was a good nerf, and Spreading Plague was a card that probably never should have been made. But nerfing Wild Growth was setting the Druid class on fire. This is the single worst nerf in Hearthstone's history. The least they could do is nerf Nourish and wait, adding cards to the next set that could fill the void of Wild Growth. The timing is an insult to Druid players.
In standard, without Fiery War Axe, Warrior needs an unreasonable amount of support for its tempo and aggro archtypes. As we've seen, they often don't come together. In the majority of standard metas these archtypes will be dead without careful focused support. Rush Warrior would likely be great right now if Fiery War Axe cost 2, and it might have an aggro deck too. Control Warrior also relied on Fiery War Axe, and although it has more basic/classic support, such support is purely removal. Fiery War Axe of old helped CW switch gears and attempt to kill you, which there's not enough support for anymore outside the soon to be rotating quest Warrior. What we're left with is tank up/fatigue strategies. It seems to be Warrior's fate now to always be one card away from having tempo strategies work, and always be hoping for extra redundant board clears in sets so it can repeatedly clear.
This game has hero powers and inherently different classes, and exceptional cards balance them. Those exceptional cards need to be recognized as the class features they are. To nerf them is to give yourself the herculean task of filling the void they leave over and over - or let the archtypes they enabled die. If you're going to nerf them, you need a solid consistent plan to support such archtypes in place before you nerf them. If you can't do this, then don't and stop wasting our dust investments.
Totally agree for wild growth.
They nerfed a card destroying the class.
They should stop to put classes in a place where they will get a nerf, like the old overpowered UI, or quest rogue. It's their fault.
Leper Gnome
You hit the nail on the head.
War Axe did need a nerf, but adding the text "Cannot attack your opponent" would have been fine.
This is a lot of words, but it's all just salt.
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/212005-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty
Just because cards were old, doesn't mean they were good. If you want a game to succeed, you have to let it grow and evolve. Sometimes old cards are good. Sometimes they aren't.
Wild Growth revealed itself to be unhealthy at 2 mana as we all learned more about how druid and mana cheat work in HS.
We've seen what the developers think a classic/basic set should look like with Icicle, Pilfer, etc. They are not supposed to be cards that dominate a class and competitive play for all time. I think we'd all be better off if we started thinking of basic/classic as HS's first set, and not something that will be forever woven into the game.
Broken record time: this is the problem with the huge classic and basic set. It needs an entire revamping.
Some cards are just basic cards meant to show noobs what the class can do but not meant to be the most powefuk card in the class...
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist. ©Trimutius
You sure must have it hard for getting 1-2 cards nerfed that constantly saw play in EVERY SINGLE deck or ARCHETYPE of the mentioned classes. When they'll give me back my Ice Lance and Ice Block OR find a better replacement in classic than the RNG spell generator no one is using - we can talk then.
I don't really sympathise that much with the other HoFed classes (Conceal for Rogue and Power Overwhelming for Warlock) but they sure as hell also felt it - especially all zoo/aggro warlocks with the loss of PO.
Did the Fiery War Axe and Wild Growth + Nourish nerfs were clean? Certainly not.
Were they not overkills of the cards? Certainly not and with both of those I sympathise.
But
If the cards are both UNIVERSALLY STRONG IN EVERY SITUATION, go into EVERY DECK and SEVERLY cripple other archetypes/classes or their means to response then the cards either need to get changed (the latest nerfs) or HOFed (Ice block, PO).
Pity that Blizzard as always made sure to nerf/destroy a full class (Druid) + most of the tier 2/counters offending decks and leave one full class of 4 archetypes without any meanigful nerfs/adjustments (Hunter)
I'm tired of Blizzards policy to have a cycle of "this is a X class expansion". This game will never be fun or "fair" for others if Blizzards answer to balance and having 9 classes is basically make 2-3 unusuable/garbage (example Druid, Shaman) 2-3 mediocre to niche/counter classes (example Mage, Warrior) and 2-3 OP/tier one warping the meta around them (example Hunter).
Why can they never think over the expansions and act ACCORDINGLY? I get it. It's hard and unpredictable. But that's what 2-3 nerf cycles should be for - to tone down the main offenders (all at once while having thought it over) and correct a second time making sure it is at least "somehow" balanced. The third cycle should be trying to bump counters and or decks that are "so so"/almost there.
Wild Growth was never a Problem. The problem are the totally overpowred manacheating cards that should never have been added to the Game.
Waraxe was too strong, yes. But adding "can not attack enemy hero would Not have destroyed the Card and warriors only earlygame Tool.
weapons are strong.......but vulnerable to 1000 weapon removals and freezeface abilities, I dont think any of them need nerfing (except Kingsbane ,but they already did indirectly) So yeah nerfingFiery War Axe was a bad idea from developers.
As for Wild Growth, I kinda agere too ,developers should nerf Branching Paths instead, the card is bonkers.
That's a good nerf, I wonder if Rush Warrior would run such a card. But Warrior needs an exceptional weapon in every standard meta. I think we all thought the nerf was made with this implicit promise so archtypes don't die. You'd think at this point they'd have it down to a science like MTG.
Hi devs. Warriors need a slightly unfair weapon with a .5 to 1 mana discount in every standard meta. It shouldn't be a control only weapon or we won't be able to actually use the tempo/aggro cards you print. Thank you.
Also add "your hero cannot be frozen" then all is well.
The problem with these nerfs is that it shows that the developers dont understand their own game... FWA was good in almost all decks but they nerfed it because pirate warrior.... instead of just nerfing the pirates.....smh. Druid became crazy strong because they had gave them crazy strong cards like UI, spreading plague, branching paths, the hero card, or the jade mechanic back than. Wild growth was srong yes, but the fact that the whole fuckin class died because one card nerf is just not right.... The problam may had not been wild growth, it maybe had had too strong 4 drops that could follow up a turn 2 wild growth.
The fact that the developers dont really understand their own game is scary and can lead to people leave this game. Like me, who havent really played since august and just came back to rastakhan and not much has changed.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this. The "pet" vs "ignored" classes in certain expansions is so obvious and I strongly disagree with this dev philosophy. Building up Druid as the pet then nerfing Wild Growth to pull the rug out from under them is not cool. Not clean is an understatement.
This is wrong. Druid has always had a T1 or T2 deck. Druid has always been very strong because mana cheat is very strong.
Maybe you are right, but killing a whole class with one nerf and without any replacement is also not right
I don't play much Druid or like it very much. Just saying what needs to be said. Yes, it's been their pet class for awhile now and it's frustrating. The pet class(es) will always be frustrating. And the top top players of any class will almost always find a way to hit legend with it, but that's not saying much.
It's unfortunate, yes. Because Wild Growth and Nourish were not nerfed sooner, most/all the cards that Druid currently has were designed with those two in mind. So the balance is off.
That said, I believe the present death of Druid may be overstated. I think that we've all just had WG/Nourish as a crutch for so long, we haven't figured out how to play without them.
To me, it seems like there should be a viable Treant/Token build waiting to be found since most of those cards don't need you to ramp to be powerful (although it obviously helped because mana cheat always helps).
Literally all I hear from this is "Waaaaah they nerfed my easy win extremely overpowered class that has been overpowered in literally every meta ever! Waaaah! Blizzard is big boogyman :'("
Funny tho lol
I mean. The 4 druid archetypes (Maly, Toggle, Taunt and Aggro) got replaced by 4 hunter archetypes. We are gucci :') Not.
Maybe you missed the post where I mention I don't really play Druid. Ironically I play hunter most, but have much more interest in playing it when everyone else isn't playing it too.