Hearthpwn

Quote from matt333222 »

Game really needs a Secret Eater neutral minion. We've got Weapon destroying minions, 7+ ap destroying minions, a near-Spell Lock minion, but Secrets cannot be destroyed by a minion. 

That privilege remains solely in the hands of the class who needs it least. This would be a very easy problem to fix.

Weapons let you get off at least one use unless you want to play greedy.  That's why having nuke cards is worthwhile.

BGH isn't a good card by himself so it's a risk having him,  7 attack minions are Game Enders.  They are meant to be risky plays as they'll end the game if they stay on. 

Loatheb hinders spells for ONE turn, and not REALLY.  I've had games end because my opponent was still able to play a spell through a Loat and it was just the spell they needed.  

Bah, even counterspell, at least, allows a person to know it might be coming.  Thus you can hold back your 'OMG I NEED THIS" spell and throw something less risky, or just go without a spell for a while.  Sometimes, you're stuck, but you have CHOICES.

A secret eating minion would basically nullify secrets entirely.  Note that the times when Flare Hunter becomes a thing is exactly when freeze mage stops being viable.  ONE class with an secret counter and an entire strategy is wiped. 

And note that Blizzard hates flare as a card.  They aren't planning to remove it, but they don't like it, so you aren't going to get a neutral Flare.

Now I can see something like, say, a Loat version of secrets: something to 'dampen' them.  Perhaps a minion that has a battlecry: Secrets do not activate this turn.  Since it's a battlecry it also means it won't trigger, say, mirror entry.  It won't eliminate the secret, but it means you get a turn to attack with it before the secret returns.  Give the minion crappy stats so that he's a liability outside of secret decks and there you go.  A soft counter to secrets.

Quote from iandakar »

Quote from Amito_Nya »

Boys you don't get it, let me explain. 

What do i want from a game ? Feeling of happiness, satifaction and having fun. And when playing control vs control you get that feeling, becouse you pull out "cool combos", play ysera's, grommashes, alakirs e.t.c, and even when i lose in control vs control i'm still satisfied. And that's how it looks like when i'm playing against aggro, or i play aggro, i win fast, and the only satifaction is small, and not rewarding enough, for new players it's enough, but not for someone who is playing this game for a year. If i wanna win against aggro i must counter, and trust me it's not funny at all, cause you won't be able to show your cool stuff, and will even replace it for owl or ooze to deal with undertaker or bow. Thus control meta is way more attractive and satisfying to play...   

For you.

Not everyone feels that way though.  Many people hate the longer games that control demands.  They like the adrenaline rush of aggro decks.

Myself, I hate the lack of variety.  I want to be able to face slow decks and fast decks.  The idea of everyone playing control all day is dull to me.  Same goes for endless aggro. Mostly, though, I like counters.  I want to play a midrange deck when folks go aggro, a control deck when they go midrange, and aggro when they go control.  I get just as much enjoyment tearing down an opponent fast JUST as the Rag shows as I do blocking a rush deck over and over until turn 15 when my win condition shows up.

Note that all of these opinions are fine, mine, yours, and the others.  The issue is when you start demanding the game change to suit your playstyle at the cost of others.  "I prefer control, so aggro can go away." 

That's pretty similar to aggro demands demanding that Rag get nerfed to oblivion.  Either way, it's meh.  

CAN you request the game change?  You can.  But then so can everyone else.  Unless you really want your opinion to go the way of "OMG Legendaries OP, NERF EM!" then we'll need an argument other than "I prefer this".

You know, i would say that there's a point in your text, but nope, after facing dozens of aggro, and counters to em this game becomes ultra boring, it's not boring when you're facing only control, however it is, when only aggro, only war and priest can sort of beat hunter, and these are the only two controls on ladder viable right now, so all you see is: war, priest, zoo, hunter, where are pallys ? Shamans died, and i can't even play ysera in my war. Fast games are shit, and does not give the feeling you get after a normal match up. Countering is fun ? Only think about that, you're not playing what you want, you're playing what meta forces you to play, what's fun bout that ? Remember june season before naxx ? The time of freedom when everyone was playing what he wanted, hunter wasn't broken, zoo was not so annoying, ramps were all around, tauntadins, miracles, shamans, priests with rag, and handlocks, what a great meta was that, and look what do we have now, 4 decks, and they are fast, repetitive and utterly aimed for just winning and not having fun...

A soft counter to secrets.

That's not powerful enough to justify using it against secret decks, and therefore any decks. 

There's only going to be more and more secret cards as the game progresses. There needs to be a significant check to their power or else they'll grow out of control if they haven't already. 

Right now, only one class has a check against secrets' power - and it's a user of Secrets. They will have to do something about this. I think a Harrison Jones of Secrets is inevitable.

Only problem with aggro decks at all is how god-awful the sweepers in the game are. Hunter's hero power also provides inevitability no other power does.

Also, I really expect a neutral secret hoser in GvG. Secrets are frustrating when all of them are viable, especially when you or your opponent don't know which one went in play because the super-fair Mad Scientist just died and can't play around it.

Quote from metulwurker »

Also, I really expect a neutral secret hoser in GvG. Secrets are frustrating when all of them are viable, especially when you or your opponent don't know which one went in play because the super-fair Mad Scientist just died and can't play around it.

Umm, the player who controlled the Mad Scientist can mouse over the question mark on the portrait to see which secret it is at any time.

Quote from matt333222 »

A soft counter to secrets.

That's not powerful enough to justify using it against secret decks, and therefore any decks. 

There's only going to be more and more secret cards as the game progresses. There needs to be a significant check to their power or else they'll grow out of control if they haven't already. 

Right now, only one class has a check against secrets' power - and it's a user of Secrets. They will have to do something about this. I think a Harrison Jones of Secrets is inevitable.

As more secrets are added, THEN they can think of adding checks to deal with them.  Right now we only JUST now started seeing them in any real use.  Before naxx, even hunters had abandoned their secrets in their midrange decks.  Right now we only have hunters who use them and that's only because of mad scientist: hunter's real power isn't from their secret use.  Mage secrets exists but isn't really considered highly viable, just annoying to deal with.  

Flare isn't a 'check' against secret power: it's a flat out eliminator.  Flare alone shows that the second an 'ooze' like counter to secrets exists it'll eliminate the entire mechanic.  And we're just trying to offer back and forth play against them right, not just completely eliminating the concept from the match.  Riiight?

To put it another way, a Secrets Harrison Jones can exist once Secrets start working against you the turn they are played.  A BGH for Secrets can exist once secrets start doing over 20% of your health each turn.  I'd rather take a Loatheb minion for secrets.

Hi guys, I haven't been playing this game very long, but I have just started to play ranked games and I am using a very similar hunter deck to the one that I am sure you guys are describing. The whole Undertaker Deathrattle deck. Now, as a new player, I enjoy playing the deck as most of you would probably expect me to say. Aside from playing this game, I have played a little bit of MTG and I played A LOT of Yu-gi-oh! back when it was a good game. I will say from my experience, when a TCG type of game is released or any new TCG, early on there is no metagame to speak of because it doesn't exist due to a lack of cards and also the variety of decks is at its highest as well for the same reason. When Yu-gi-oh! started to release more sets of cards, a meta started to come about and evolve. The rest of the game is history of course, but what I am getting at is that all games like this will inevitably develop a metagame and you must be able to deal with it. I have heard arguments like this before, like this deck is too OP or this card is broken. Yes, it happens and you must deal with it. I will admit that playing the deck I have is really unfair sometimes. Give it time and eventually this deck will fade away like all the others will do, and soon new decks will be OP and we will be right back here debating about how it is too OP all over again. 

Quote from iandakar »

Quote from matt333222 »

A soft counter to secrets.

That's not powerful enough to justify using it against secret decks, and therefore any decks. 

There's only going to be more and more secret cards as the game progresses. There needs to be a significant check to their power or else they'll grow out of control if they haven't already. 

Right now, only one class has a check against secrets' power - and it's a user of Secrets. They will have to do something about this. I think a Harrison Jones of Secrets is inevitable.

As more secrets are added, THEN they can think of adding checks to deal with them.  Right now we only JUST now started seeing them in any real use.  Before naxx, even hunters had abandoned their secrets in their midrange decks.  Right now we only have hunters who use them and that's only because of mad scientist: hunter's real power isn't from their secret use.  Mage secrets exists but isn't really considered highly viable, just annoying to deal with.  

Flare isn't a 'check' against secret power: it's a flat out eliminator.  Flare alone shows that the second an 'ooze' like counter to secrets exists it'll eliminate the entire mechanic.  And we're just trying to offer back and forth play against them right, not just completely eliminating the concept from the match.  Riiight?

To put it another way, a Secrets Harrison Jones can exist once Secrets start working against you the turn they are played.  A BGH for Secrets can exist once secrets start doing over 20% of your health each turn.  I'd rather take a Loatheb minion for secrets.

Or a battlecry that bounces secrets back into your hand.

Maybe the hunters are all past rank 18 :P . i don't know the eu meta but i think it's the slowest meta of the other playing regions.

"Or a battlecry that bounces secrets back into your hand."

That'll work too.  Something that allows for secrets to not fully die but does give you an opening in case they are overrelied on (i.e. a mage with no taunts and relying PURELY on ice block to survive)

If the only thing keeping you from winning is a secret, a card that lets you bypass them is fine since any other point would just mean tthe secret comes back and you can use it again. 

(personally I prefer the 'hide till next turn' only because it's rather unique and interesting instead of just a Sap).  

To put it another way, a Secrets Harrison Jones can exist once Secrets start working against you the turn they are played.  A BGH for Secrets can exist once secrets start doing over 20% of your health each turn.  I'd rather take a Loatheb minion for secrets.

We're definitely already there because of Scientist. An earlygame Scientist proc is so efficient/snowbally that secrets are presently worse than 20% of your life gone on a single turn in lategame. 

That mechanic is obviously overpowered. The dearth of ladder diversity that I think all of us have seen by now, should serve as proof.

Quote from Svartbest »

As said before in this post; a creature with battlecry: reveal all secrets would be enough imo

 

I can see that working too.  In fact, I like that more than my idea.  

It is mostly because of the fact people always hate whatever deck is winning, along with a bizarre thing I've observed where TCG players hate aggro (In both YGO and MTG) and just say it is "turning creatures sideways" (Despite aggro being arguably much more difficult to play than MTG Control) even when aggro is not powerful. In addition, people probably hate Hunter because it is particularly punishing if you play wrong against it (As someone whose biggest issue is making boneheaded mistakes, I can attest to that), so it is somewhat easy to lose without as big of a difference in skill.

Another reason I've found is that Hunter is a pretty good counter to Handlock, so anyone who plays it will dislike them (Tho. my Demon Handlock has a 53% Hunter winrate and has gone as high as 63%, though I suspect the true talent level of the deck is like 40% or so vs. Hunter), and new Hunter decks are harder to deal with via Control due to a high focus on killing.

Finally, it is because Undertaker probably is too strong ATM and I don't just say that due to Hunter. I do also agree that there should be some anti-secret cards, because there shouldn't be a card type that cannot be entirely interacted with, though they should not destroy them. Something like 4 mana 4/4, Secrets cannot be activated this turn?

Another problem is that taunt minions in this game suck. It's not up to you to block so your minions can just be ignored.

The first decent taunt you can play is Sen'Jin at 4 mana, and he just dies to a single Skill Command or Overwhelming Skills. Belcher provided a much better option but guess what, every aggro deck runs two owls. Aoe isn't punishing anymore because of deathrattles, so there's no playing around this crap, you need to adapt and that's it.

Too bad the best deathrattle minion (Skill Scientist) has the best sinergy exactly in hunter. Thank god most hunter players didn't figure out how op secret mage is, because they have flare.

Hunter matchup feels like a coin toss, either they have a good start hand and you lose or you have a good hand to survive their initial onslaught and win. There is little skill involved, especially from the hunter side.

Thanks but think I stick to my handlock, as it is the deck I enjoy playing the most. It also crushes most "hunter counter" decks quite hard. 

Agree about under taker, such a broken card... either godly T1 or pretty much useless.

I just had the most interesting debate against a salty hunter player.

After he lost against my warrior (i'm something like 10-0 against hunters) he sent a friend request just to say that warrior is a piece of crap and its easy to play warrior. Its just like turn 1 weapon, and then play every card. And he said he is tired of loosing to this brainless deck :P

This from a guy that played turn 1 undertaker, turn 2 mad scientist, turn 3 misha, turn 4 bow + undertaker.

Its like the most sick hand you can get if an opponent doesn't have an early response. I'm telling you, there are some guys out there that have no clue about what cancer deck they are playing. 

I told him, sorry about that and if you want to win against warrior don't play a brainless deck.

He insulted me and canceled the friend request. It was absolutely epic.

PS: I admit i had the sickest hand with coin+axe+armorsmith+cleave+unstable ghoul. But still if i had draw poorly i would have been dead by turn 6  

lol, I love people who add me and then rage. 

If Hunter plays Highmane it messes up Warrior, too. It's so good in the matchup that you should keep it in your opening hand.

The charge face version is much less robust against taunts, which are widely played (primarily Sludge Belcher).

I'm assuming the main problem with secrets is mad scientist + (into) freezing trap. If that is the only trap that is tempo breaking, we do not necessarily need a secret counter (or just a change in mad scientist). We need a cheap and useful minion, most usually a token to proc and waste the trap. Haunted creeper tokens or cheap 1-2 drops are usually doing the trick for me.

If you have a big creature on board, don't attack with it and play a cheaper minion to use it on. Other hunter traps are all not so hard to play around. Only problem is the snake trap with knife juggler, when you have no spells to deal with it.

I don't think hard counters to secrets is a good idea. Because many other secrets are barely strong enough to be good choices. A minion that sends a secret back to hand, or nullifies it for one turn will make a secret like ice block completely useless. So, I'm not supporting such an idea. Revealing of secrets is a fine idea, which I think should be implemented on flare; instead of destroying the trap.