I think Blizzard should cease to nerf cards. In my opinion it disproportionately affects f2p players including yours truly, so I should probably acknowledge subjectivity at this point lol. Sure, you get a full refund on the nerfed card, but you don't get it on other cards you crafted for that particular competitive deck to which the nerfed card belongs. And this is a problem because most f2p players have only one or two viable decks at their disposal at any given time. I personally find changing the meta every time you print new cards sufficient enough. Let people have some fun and run rampant with some powerful decks for a while. What's wrong with that. Mind you, I grew up playing HoM&M 3, so I'm used to imbalanced mechanics being present, but I think they can be fun. Alternatively instead of nerfing some cards, buff some cards in order to improve the balance. It can provide the same effect without effectively removing the decks people invested in from play and as an additional bonus no need to provide refunds of any kind. What do you guys think?
I had that exact same topic two years ago and was 95 % screamed at for the argument.
Somtimes a card get semi-affected like Reno Jackson to a Raza the Chained nerf. Sometimes it is directly affecting the card like a Mekgineer Thermaplugg to a Leaper Gnome nerf.
Nerfs are a way for Blizzard to make money. Suddenly people have a feeling of need to craft new decks and they get a few dust to make that happen.
Well whatever deck you have that isn't playable in standard anymore is probably playable in wild with another card unless its kingsbane in which case good riddance
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I don't wanna pay, please cater to my every need anyways. Game balance? Never heard of it."
Buffs are way less predictable than nerfs. Endless powercreep is what got us into this mess to begin with.
"let people have fun and run rampant with some powerful decks for a while. What'S wrong with that."
Where you born this much of an egomaniac or does it come naturally?
Just because you have no problem getting dicked by broken decks doesn't mean everyone else should suffer just because you don't want to spend money on a game.
Just learn to enjoy cards outside of playing them in T1 decks. There are plenty of ways to build a more midrange or aggro Kingsbane deck and there are plenty of Shudderwock interactions that don't involve OTKing with it. Blizzard will always push out nerfs to limit high-performing decks or ones that people find un-fun to play against. The solution is to realize this and play less popular decks as you have the element of surprise in games and will likely not have to worry about lost dust when nerfs roll out.
The approach blizz. took in the past was to release new cards which counter the OP stuff (looking at you Skulking Giest) - not really an ideal solution as a F2P player either. Personally I think Blizz is being devious with it's nerfs - focusing on the support cards that give very little dust rather than the legendaries which generally cause the problem in the first place. It's important that no one deck is OP though as the meta just shifts to that deck + counter decks which isn't really fun for anyone.
I'm honestly a little confused at this point as to what Blizz want from their game. Shudderwock and Kingbane rogue are no fun/un-interactive yet Mech'Cthun is? Maybe it's all about win rates and the whole "interactive" thing is just secondary - only Blizz knows...
If you crafted cards for one deck that is not playable after the nerf... play them in another way. I crafted a number of cards to play in a deck only to have the same thing happen. So I started using them in other decks or in other ways.
Agreed, it is frustrating when it happens. But it is in an effort to help keep the balance of the meta. Instead of EVERYONE running 1-2 decks, it opens the meta up for other types of players and play styles.
I understand the argument about f2p. But if you are not investing in new cards then you made a mistake. Nobody wants to hear that you just crafted a card that was about to rotate and now they nerfed it.
Are you looking for support by creating this thread so that people can pull out their tiny violins?
I think Blizzard should cease to nerf cards. In my opinion it disproportionately affects f2p players including yours truly, so I should probably acknowledge subjectivity at this point lol. Sure, you get a full refund on the nerfed card, but you don't get it on other cards you crafted for that particular competitive deck to which the nerfed card belongs. And this is a problem because most f2p players have only one or two viable decks at their disposal at any given time. I personally find changing the meta every time you print new cards sufficient enough. Let people have some fun and run rampant with some powerful decks for a while. What's wrong with that. Mind you, I grew up playing HoM&M 3, so I'm used to imbalanced mechanics being present, but I think they can be fun. Alternatively instead of nerfing some cards, buff some cards in order to improve the balance. It can provide the same effect without effectively removing the decks people invested in from play and as an additional bonus no need to provide refunds of any kind. What do you guys think?
2 competitive decks at any given time by f2p players? lol u have been playing since 2016 and u say that? i have a full f2p account from november 2017 and its not my main account so i play less games there and i have all hunter decks in standard even shaman for both wild and standard plus some other t2 decks on both modes. i can surely say i have at least top tier decks for both formats and around 5 or 6 decks that i could easily pilot to legend if i had the time. in F2P account that i play only half my time cause my main account is the one i use more.
in conclusion i think u dont manage ur dust very well
F2P players are only vulnerable to these nerfs because there aren't too many cards one can make that fit a variety of decks or a certain style of play. Since standard was released, the game has gravitated to a mentality of 'must-have' cards for very specific builds. This has resulted in the paper-rock-scissors meta in which players select from a small set of 'best' decks. While Ben Brode and his ilk, now thankfully eliminated from the equation, celebrated the raw sales potential of this model, the game and its players suffered. Clearly, there is a new direction at Team 5. Hopefully, this nerf is the first step toward reestablishing collectability over the present culture of tier decks fueled by broken must-have cards.
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Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I don't really think this is a solid argument. It completely ignores the fact that the cards that get nerfed are nerfed on terms of balance for the game.
Yes they could have nerfed kingsbane, but kingsbane itself wasn't the problem, it was its access to insane heals
Yes they could have nerfed UI, but how long until blizz prints a new insane spell? ramp tools limited the possibility for them to print high cost spells for druid.
Yes they could have changed the upgraded hero power of paladin, but is it really a wise decision to completely butcher an archetype, rather than getting rid of the problem card?
My point being that although it's true that it can hurt f2p players, this doesn't really hold solid ground as an argument as the card game, regardless of how much money you have on you, requires balancing.
In hindsight tho, they could can it a bit with the powercreep, or at least have a more proffessional testing team.
Odd Paladin - Viable deck for 6+ months, most cards like Leeroy and Fungalmancer etc. in the deck are also used in other decks.
Combo Druid - Viable for 6+ months, most cards are still good and will be played in other druid decks. Just because Maly Druid got nerfed doesn't mean Malygos, Alex, Floop, Ferocious Howl, UI, Branching Paths etc won't be played in other decks.
Kingsbane - Ok, I will give it to you, this one was a bit "unfair".
Shudderwock - Viable for 6+ months, most cards like Hagatha, Shudderwock, Keleseth, Volcano, Zola, Saronite can be played in other decks.
Most decks nerfed were top tier for more than half a year. You played with those cards for more than half a year, I think the dust you invested gave you more than enough "value" in terms of play time and "fun".
Cards in these nerfed decks can be reused in other decks. Say you lost Odd Paladin, you can craft Odd Rogue or Zoolock. If you lost Shudderwock shaman, then you can play midrange Shudderwock or evolve Shudderwock etc.
I'm noticing a surge of odd rogue, the class was previously being monopolized by kingsbane rogue. For the decks i play i preferred the latter. Hopefully i'm not forced to play odd warrior again all season.
My gut tells me there is something uneconomical about catering to F2P players. I can't quite put my finger on it.
they cater to NPE. they know if they give some free shit to newbies they get sucked in at the initial fun they are having so then those players dunp 50 -100 in and then realize tne game is pure bullshit and either stop spending money or just leave, RISE AND REPEAT. Blizzard fans dont care and just give this company money no matter what they put out but im not a blizzard fan and frankly dont care if they company went bankrupt tomorrow and thats why I call it like it is. Blizzard is taking orders from daddy actavision and the corporate money machine. The employees at blizzard are nothing but cogs in the wheel of the machine that prints money. This company does not give a rats ass about its customers or its employees. The only thing they exist for is to make a profit and answer to the shareholders. How many games does a standalone release sell thats any good, 10-20 million copies at 50-60 a copy is pennies compared to milking millions of saps for 50-100 repeatedly. Games are no longer going to be standalone buy once and enjoy. Why do you think they are putting diablo on a phone......endless micro-transactions. Hey Blizzard sorry wont download your garbage game and wont be giving you a penny. The best thing ALL blizzard customers can do a this point is STOP FUNDING THE TRASH. literally do not buy anything from them...lets put them where they belong IN THE GARBAGE. Stop complaining on hearthpwn and reddit and DO SOMETHING. The consumer has ALL THE POWER.. stop giving them MONEY. LETS BANKRUPT THIS PATHETIC COMPANY OVERNIGHT. Nobody needs anything this company makes and quite frankly nobody will really care if they are gone either. Really there isnt any need to buy anything in this game anymore because out of each xpansion you only use 10-15 cards anyway. 10k gold between xpans is all the packs you need to make the cards that matter. everyone here should do what I did and just quit funding this company. They have already killed higher gold quest frequency and I wont be surprised if they eliminate the current gold/quest format altogether and go to a subscription based model of 19.99 a month for 20 packs or some shit. Mark my words it WILL HAPPEN. These people are to easy to predict and too easy too laugh at.
Your argument is extremely flawed. I understand that it can be frustrating for new players and F2P players (which for effective purposes are almost the same) to lose their one good deck that they've been working towards or that deck they just put all their dust into but that doesn't mean that the solution is to never nerf anything that's broken ever again, that's just stupid (no offense intended). I think Blizzard should have a better refund policy cause all they've been doing lately is kill entire archetypes by nerfing key cards that are cheap so they don't have to refnd big loads of dust but not nerfing anything is not the solution.
If you don't nerf anything the game is gonna get to a point to where it's unplayable cause there's so much powerful shit that the game becomes either a flip coin on who highrolls who faster or would be purely match-up oriented (let me tell you, neither of those are fun at all), specially with you "policy" of just buffing cards, literally everything wold have to et buffed eventually and it would be an endless cycle and everything would end up being ridiculously powerful. Also why should we all pay that price because of new and F2P players? I'm not saying you guys are not important but in that same vein we spenders are as important as you (more important to blizzard actually)
Again I get your frustation but not nerfing is even worse and you would see it, the game would game horrible and it would lose its entire player base.
I specifically crafted kingsbane three days ago because everyone was telling me it was such an unbeatable deck that could easily help you climb, and I got up a one-hole rank before basically plateauing at rank 15 over and over barely getting past 3 stars, but now this nerve basically throws the deck in the trash and they didn't even nerve the legendary so I don't even get a full dust refund.
The saronite one pisses me off the most. all because they didn't listen to us when we said shudderwok was going to be broken, now they had to nerf a card that was doing fine in many other decks just because it was problematic in one. Blizzard is literally left with a bunch of idiots, I'm 100% certain now that all the good people actually left that damn company.
Jesus do we need someone else to come out with a mobile-based collectible card game already cuz I'm ready to quit the stupid piece of shit.
Edit for the record I'm not against nerfs though. If a card ends up being out of control it needs to be put down, I'm just saying they constantly like to Nerf things in a roundabout ways because they don't want to actually give us full dust refunds for valuable cards in my opinion. Shudderwok and kingsbane are the problems, but they nerfed common and rare cards that were being used in tandem with them not even caring that they were also useful in other decks.
I think Blizzard should cease to nerf cards. In my opinion it disproportionately affects f2p players including yours truly, so I should probably acknowledge subjectivity at this point lol. Sure, you get a full refund on the nerfed card, but you don't get it on other cards you crafted for that particular competitive deck to which the nerfed card belongs. And this is a problem because most f2p players have only one or two viable decks at their disposal at any given time. I personally find changing the meta every time you print new cards sufficient enough. Let people have some fun and run rampant with some powerful decks for a while. What's wrong with that. Mind you, I grew up playing HoM&M 3, so I'm used to imbalanced mechanics being present, but I think they can be fun. Alternatively instead of nerfing some cards, buff some cards in order to improve the balance. It can provide the same effect without effectively removing the decks people invested in from play and as an additional bonus no need to provide refunds of any kind. What do you guys think?
I had that exact same topic two years ago and was 95 % screamed at for the argument.
Somtimes a card get semi-affected like Reno Jackson to a Raza the Chained nerf. Sometimes it is directly affecting the card like a Mekgineer Thermaplugg to a Leaper Gnome nerf.
Nerfs are a way for Blizzard to make money. Suddenly people have a feeling of need to craft new decks and they get a few dust to make that happen.
Well whatever deck you have that isn't playable in standard anymore is probably playable in wild with another card
unless its kingsbane in which case good riddance
-Gematria :3
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I don't wanna pay, please cater to my every need anyways. Game balance? Never heard of it."
Buffs are way less predictable than nerfs. Endless powercreep is what got us into this mess to begin with.
"let people have fun and run rampant with some powerful decks for a while. What'S wrong with that."
Where you born this much of an egomaniac or does it come naturally?
Just because you have no problem getting dicked by broken decks doesn't mean everyone else should suffer just because you don't want to spend money on a game.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Just learn to enjoy cards outside of playing them in T1 decks. There are plenty of ways to build a more midrange or aggro Kingsbane deck and there are plenty of Shudderwock interactions that don't involve OTKing with it. Blizzard will always push out nerfs to limit high-performing decks or ones that people find un-fun to play against. The solution is to realize this and play less popular decks as you have the element of surprise in games and will likely not have to worry about lost dust when nerfs roll out.
How many I crafted Kingsbane and now I'm salty threads can people make in 1 day?
Edit: oh and my other deck is Odd Paladin.
The approach blizz. took in the past was to release new cards which counter the OP stuff (looking at you Skulking Giest) - not really an ideal solution as a F2P player either. Personally I think Blizz is being devious with it's nerfs - focusing on the support cards that give very little dust rather than the legendaries which generally cause the problem in the first place. It's important that no one deck is OP though as the meta just shifts to that deck + counter decks which isn't really fun for anyone.
I'm honestly a little confused at this point as to what Blizz want from their game. Shudderwock and Kingbane rogue are no fun/un-interactive yet Mech'Cthun is? Maybe it's all about win rates and the whole "interactive" thing is just secondary - only Blizz knows...
If you crafted cards for one deck that is not playable after the nerf... play them in another way. I crafted a number of cards to play in a deck only to have the same thing happen. So I started using them in other decks or in other ways.
Agreed, it is frustrating when it happens. But it is in an effort to help keep the balance of the meta. Instead of EVERYONE running 1-2 decks, it opens the meta up for other types of players and play styles.
Existing nerf discussion thread.......right over here -> https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/227961-the-december-2018-nerfs-discussion-thread
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I understand the argument about f2p. But if you are not investing in new cards then you made a mistake. Nobody wants to hear that you just crafted a card that was about to rotate and now they nerfed it.
Are you looking for support by creating this thread so that people can pull out their tiny violins?
My gut tells me there is something uneconomical about catering to F2P players. I can't quite put my finger on it.
2 competitive decks at any given time by f2p players? lol u have been playing since 2016 and u say that? i have a full f2p account from november 2017 and its not my main account so i play less games there and i have all hunter decks in standard even shaman for both wild and standard plus some other t2 decks on both modes. i can surely say i have at least top tier decks for both formats and around 5 or 6 decks that i could easily pilot to legend if i had the time. in F2P account that i play only half my time cause my main account is the one i use more.
in conclusion i think u dont manage ur dust very well
F2P players are only vulnerable to these nerfs because there aren't too many cards one can make that fit a variety of decks or a certain style of play. Since standard was released, the game has gravitated to a mentality of 'must-have' cards for very specific builds. This has resulted in the paper-rock-scissors meta in which players select from a small set of 'best' decks. While Ben Brode and his ilk, now thankfully eliminated from the equation, celebrated the raw sales potential of this model, the game and its players suffered. Clearly, there is a new direction at Team 5. Hopefully, this nerf is the first step toward reestablishing collectability over the present culture of tier decks fueled by broken must-have cards.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I don't really think this is a solid argument. It completely ignores the fact that the cards that get nerfed are nerfed on terms of balance for the game.
Yes they could have nerfed kingsbane, but kingsbane itself wasn't the problem, it was its access to insane heals
Yes they could have nerfed UI, but how long until blizz prints a new insane spell? ramp tools limited the possibility for them to print high cost spells for druid.
Yes they could have changed the upgraded hero power of paladin, but is it really a wise decision to completely butcher an archetype, rather than getting rid of the problem card?
My point being that although it's true that it can hurt f2p players, this doesn't really hold solid ground as an argument as the card game, regardless of how much money you have on you, requires balancing.
In hindsight tho, they could can it a bit with the powercreep, or at least have a more proffessional testing team.
Why u hav to be mad? is only card gaem.
I don't understand this argument.
Look at the nerfs :-
Odd Paladin - Viable deck for 6+ months, most cards like Leeroy and Fungalmancer etc. in the deck are also used in other decks.
Combo Druid - Viable for 6+ months, most cards are still good and will be played in other druid decks. Just because Maly Druid got nerfed doesn't mean Malygos, Alex, Floop, Ferocious Howl, UI, Branching Paths etc won't be played in other decks.
Kingsbane - Ok, I will give it to you, this one was a bit "unfair".
Shudderwock - Viable for 6+ months, most cards like Hagatha, Shudderwock, Keleseth, Volcano, Zola, Saronite can be played in other decks.
Most decks nerfed were top tier for more than half a year. You played with those cards for more than half a year, I think the dust you invested gave you more than enough "value" in terms of play time and "fun".
Cards in these nerfed decks can be reused in other decks. Say you lost Odd Paladin, you can craft Odd Rogue or Zoolock. If you lost Shudderwock shaman, then you can play midrange Shudderwock or evolve Shudderwock etc.
I'm noticing a surge of odd rogue, the class was previously being monopolized by kingsbane rogue. For the decks i play i preferred the latter. Hopefully i'm not forced to play odd warrior again all season.
they cater to NPE. they know if they give some free shit to newbies they get sucked in at the initial fun they are having so then those players dunp 50 -100 in and then realize tne game is pure bullshit and either stop spending money or just leave, RISE AND REPEAT. Blizzard fans dont care and just give this company money no matter what they put out but im not a blizzard fan and frankly dont care if they company went bankrupt tomorrow and thats why I call it like it is. Blizzard is taking orders from daddy actavision and the corporate money machine. The employees at blizzard are nothing but cogs in the wheel of the machine that prints money. This company does not give a rats ass about its customers or its employees. The only thing they exist for is to make a profit and answer to the shareholders. How many games does a standalone release sell thats any good, 10-20 million copies at 50-60 a copy is pennies compared to milking millions of saps for 50-100 repeatedly. Games are no longer going to be standalone buy once and enjoy. Why do you think they are putting diablo on a phone......endless micro-transactions. Hey Blizzard sorry wont download your garbage game and wont be giving you a penny. The best thing ALL blizzard customers can do a this point is STOP FUNDING THE TRASH. literally do not buy anything from them...lets put them where they belong IN THE GARBAGE. Stop complaining on hearthpwn and reddit and DO SOMETHING. The consumer has ALL THE POWER.. stop giving them MONEY. LETS BANKRUPT THIS PATHETIC COMPANY OVERNIGHT. Nobody needs anything this company makes and quite frankly nobody will really care if they are gone either. Really there isnt any need to buy anything in this game anymore because out of each xpansion you only use 10-15 cards anyway. 10k gold between xpans is all the packs you need to make the cards that matter. everyone here should do what I did and just quit funding this company. They have already killed higher gold quest frequency and I wont be surprised if they eliminate the current gold/quest format altogether and go to a subscription based model of 19.99 a month for 20 packs or some shit. Mark my words it WILL HAPPEN. These people are to easy to predict and too easy too laugh at.
Your argument is extremely flawed. I understand that it can be frustrating for new players and F2P players (which for effective purposes are almost the same) to lose their one good deck that they've been working towards or that deck they just put all their dust into but that doesn't mean that the solution is to never nerf anything that's broken ever again, that's just stupid (no offense intended). I think Blizzard should have a better refund policy cause all they've been doing lately is kill entire archetypes by nerfing key cards that are cheap so they don't have to refnd big loads of dust but not nerfing anything is not the solution.
If you don't nerf anything the game is gonna get to a point to where it's unplayable cause there's so much powerful shit that the game becomes either a flip coin on who highrolls who faster or would be purely match-up oriented (let me tell you, neither of those are fun at all), specially with you "policy" of just buffing cards, literally everything wold have to et buffed eventually and it would be an endless cycle and everything would end up being ridiculously powerful. Also why should we all pay that price because of new and F2P players? I'm not saying you guys are not important but in that same vein we spenders are as important as you (more important to blizzard actually)
Again I get your frustation but not nerfing is even worse and you would see it, the game would game horrible and it would lose its entire player base.
Nerfs are needed to maintain balance. Without them the alternative is power creep, which honestly kills off more F2P players than nerfs.
I specifically crafted kingsbane three days ago because everyone was telling me it was such an unbeatable deck that could easily help you climb, and I got up a one-hole rank before basically plateauing at rank 15 over and over barely getting past 3 stars, but now this nerve basically throws the deck in the trash and they didn't even nerve the legendary so I don't even get a full dust refund.
The saronite one pisses me off the most. all because they didn't listen to us when we said shudderwok was going to be broken, now they had to nerf a card that was doing fine in many other decks just because it was problematic in one. Blizzard is literally left with a bunch of idiots, I'm 100% certain now that all the good people actually left that damn company.
Jesus do we need someone else to come out with a mobile-based collectible card game already cuz I'm ready to quit the stupid piece of shit.
Edit for the record I'm not against nerfs though. If a card ends up being out of control it needs to be put down, I'm just saying they constantly like to Nerf things in a roundabout ways because they don't want to actually give us full dust refunds for valuable cards in my opinion. Shudderwok and kingsbane are the problems, but they nerfed common and rare cards that were being used in tandem with them not even caring that they were also useful in other decks.
Hi i'm Tyler and I play hearthstone and watch anime.
Sometimes i make cards. I'd like to do that for a career one day if ever possible.