**DISCLAIMER: Yes there's a lot of text but if you go ahead and read it then you'll see that all I said was necessary so if you for whatever reason dislike reading then exit now and don't waste you time posting stuff like "Wall of text, I have a life tee hee I'm so funny LOLZ" thank you.
First of all this is NOT gonna be salty so instead of going for the easy way out,(refering me to the salt thread) I invite everyoneto really gimme your piece of mind about this topic.
Today Blizzard, literally out of nowhere announced 5 nerfs, that suprisingly are gonna come into effect today:
Leeching Poison: Now costs 1 mana but it only infuses your weapon with lifesteal for 1 turn.
So all this nerfs look pretty good (kinda not really but sure) but if you think deeply into it you'll realize that blizzard actually made huge mistakes and the game is not gonna look better now (which would be the whole point of nerfing stuff right?), let me explain myself here, first let's see why are this nerfs positive and then jump into why they are not fixing the game really.
So first of all this nerfs would look like amazing, specially to the more unexperienced eye right? they attack at most of the currently powerful decks (or more frustating to play ones as well) which would leave the space for other archetypes to come into play and for the sake of this "positive" first part of the review I'll say YES! Wild Growth and Nourish nerfs make Druid super slow now and Druid has been very poweful for a long time so lowering is power a bit should be realy good for the game. Saronite Chain Gang for its very immediate purpose is the same but interaction with cards like Prince Keleseth, Shudderwock and Val'anyr are completely changed to the point where chaing gang is not worth running anymore (and it kills the Lifedrinker/ Grumble, Worldshaker archetype completely) which is very healthy for the game. Level Up! has been problematic since it was printed, first it was solid enough to make it as a 1-off on Dude Paladin back on 2017 and then it became one of the cards that made Odd Paladin an insane powerhouse for all of 2018 and nerfing it means that you don't have that 5-mana back breaker that ended so many games and made your 2 dudes Hero power so scary. Finally Leeching Poison's effect just lasting for 1 turn is a huge hit for KB Rogue, the deck can still run it for the immediate healing but it doesn't have the infinite healing effect which is in reality the point where you lost against it, you either had to be able to burst for 30 dmg (or at least like 20+ dmg on a single turn) or you knew you would just lose to Kingsbane if you didn't manage to kill the Rogue early, so negating its ability to infinetely heal is a blessing for the rest of the meta.
Now let's see why this nerfs are not making the game better (arguably worse) ok?
The biggest offender is for sure the entire Hunter class, what do I mean by this? Well we noticed that the power level of Hunter was pretty high already, Spell/secret hunters and Deathrattle hunters are very popular and very strong decks and Blizzard just made them miles better by killing their better counters. The nerf to Level Up! means that Odd Paladin no longers keep both of this archetypes in check, because yes, hunter can't deal with 2 dudes every turn but they're no longer scary if you cant buff them for +2/+2. Then the nerfs to Druid means that a deck like Taunt Druid can no longer dismantle Spellstone oriented Hunters. KB rogue was a decent match-up against Deathrattle Hunter because Vanish just stops its entire gameplan on a single turn but with the nerfs it doesn't really do anything, like yes you can delay them heavily but you'll just die eventually via big beast. So what's gonna be the deck that stops Hunters now? Big Spell Mage is pretty decent against Spellstone hunters but it gets demolished by Deathrattle, same with Odd Warrior (And you can still lose to an earty Rexxar no matter the Hunter archetype), Even pally has a fair match-up but you still can get locked out of the game by spellstone or 1 good cube turn. The only decks I could see stopping Spellstone variants are DK OTK Paladin and Cubelock and both of those are bad vs. Deathrattle and then for Deathrattle I see stuff like Zoo, Odd Rogue and Even Shaman as good counters but surprise surprise they all get crushed by Spell/secret Hunter so the 2 hunter archetypes literally cover each other backs almost perfectly, the game's gonna be either play hunter for 3 months or play one of the counters to 1 of their archetypes and lose to the other one pretty much. So much for "fixing the game" Blizzard.
Then we have the other aspects of this nerfs... They completely killed Druid, the class identity has been ramping since day 1 and it only became a problem with Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague ( You could also argue about cards like Branching Paths and Master Oakheart but we can all agree that the 2 I mentioned are the biggest offenders) and now the Druid class is doomed to being shit forever for 2 cards that are rotating in 3 months. We all knew that Druid was gonna be bad after rotation as almost all their powerful cards are for the year of the mammoth but nerfing their ramping just leaves them with literally nothing good at all, nerfing both was not the way to go and if anything nerfing UI and plague (again btw) was a way better solution.
Also the timings on Blizzard are always incredibly weird (read stupid)... 3 of the 5 cards are rotating in 3 months and the other 2 are only really good cause of other rotating cards so why nerfing this problematic cards when they stop being a problem in standard? And no don't bring the "wild is important" argument, this nerfs barely affect wild, don't play much wild but let's be honest, the druid nerfs do affect wild but it's not like Druid was a huge powerhouse after Aviana getting nerfed, Odd Paladin isn't even that good on wild and the Level Up! nerf won't kill it as it does in standard. Shudderwock isn't good in wild and even if it was you can still use Doppelgangster for the same effect so it's irrelevant. The only very impactful nerf here is Leeching Poison which again makes KB Rogue awful but that means that a deck like Big Priest loses its biggest counter and that's a deck that the wild community hates more than Kingsbane for sure, so yeah, fun nerf lol.
Finally the fact that hunter was untouched is incredible to me, this nerfs would have been decent if cards like Emerald Spellstone, Play DeadDeathstalker RexxarZul'jin or even Katherena Winterwisp (Not so much Kathrena but still and also either of this cards or all of them would have been fine) but Blizzard as always half-asses everything and decides to only adress some of the problematic cards while making it look like everything else is fine. Thanks for reading and I would love to read all of your oppinions :)
Another problem is, the Kingsbane nerf will screw over WIld VERY hard. Kingsbane is one of if not the only deck keeping big priest in check. I can't wait for my big priest meta! :D
There will be plenty of new archetypes that were surpressed by odd Paladin and druid which are capable of keeping hunter in check. It is so easy to counter just hunter if you don't have to fear losing every game to druid/paladin/rogue.
What about, there are other decks that can do well against Hunters but had problems against Odd Pally or Shud Shaman?
I'm happy because maybe we will see some other stuff than ramp druids or odd paladins which we've seen for too long imo.
Also this opens some possibilities for the next expac.
And finally I love changes, changes are cool (and lucky I don't play any of those decks :p ). Well I have druid cards but I can mill them and complete my Priest/Rogue/Shaman collection.
What about, there are other decks that can do well against Hunters but had problems against Odd Pally or Shud Shaman?
I'm happy because maybe we will see some other stuff than ramp druids or odd paladins which we've seen for too long imo.
Also this opens some possibilities for the next expac.
And finally I love changes, changes are cool (and lucky I don't play any of those decks :p ). Well I have druid cards but I can mill them and complete my Priest/Rogue/Shaman collection
What decks? Could you name them instead of saying "there are decks that do good against hunter." (You probably didn't read the entire post as I actually named some of the decks that could benefit from this nerfs as they do well against hunter and also said the reason for those not being super good).
Also all this problematic cards rotate next expansion so it's irrelevant for standard and wild has way bigger problems that the nerfed cards, only the poison is impactful for wild tbh.
What about, there are other decks that can do well against Hunters but had problems against Odd Pally or Shud Shaman?
I'm happy because maybe we will see some other stuff than ramp druids or odd paladins which we've seen for too long imo.
Also this opens some possibilities for the next expac.
And finally I love changes, changes are cool (and lucky I don't play any of those decks :p ). Well I have druid cards but I can mill them and complete my Priest/Rogue/Shaman collection
What decks? Could you name them instead of saying "there are decks that do good against hunter." (You probably didn't read the entire post as I actually named some of the decks that could benefit from this nerfs as they do well against hunter and also said the reason for those not being super good).
Also all this problematic cards rotate next expansion so it's irrelevant for standard and wild has way bigger problems that the nerfed cards, only the poison is impactful for wild tbh.
Irrelevant for standard? You know we're still months away from the rotation, right? Some of us would like to enjoy the game until then.
What about, there are other decks that can do well against Hunters but had problems against Odd Pally or Shud Shaman?
I'm happy because maybe we will see some other stuff than ramp druids or odd paladins which we've seen for too long imo.
Also this opens some possibilities for the next expac.
And finally I love changes, changes are cool (and lucky I don't play any of those decks :p ). Well I have druid cards but I can mill them and complete my Priest/Rogue/Shaman collection
What decks? Could you name them instead of saying "there are decks that do good against hunter." (You probably didn't read the entire post as I actually named some of the decks that could benefit from this nerfs as they do well against hunter and also said the reason for those not being super good).
Also all this problematic cards rotate next expansion so it's irrelevant for standard and wild has way bigger problems that the nerfed cards, only the poison is impactful for wild tbh.
Irrelevant for standard? You know we're still months away from the rotation, right? Some of us would like to enjoy the game until then.
Yeah, enjoy queueing against 30 hunters every day lol
You got some good point but others i would are wrong.
let's start with the good arguments and why i think they are good ...
-You say wild growth and nourish are classidentity cards and that is true and is kinda sad i would liked it more if they touched branching path, spreading plague, ferocious howl and UI all together and juicy psycmelon perhaps to i don't know. I made a post few days ago where i mentioned that warrior lost a lot of it's class identity like fiery waraxe, warsongcommander and charge and the class suffered a lot because of that over time so i guess you might be right that druid is gonna be in the dumpster for some time but who knows...
-The nerfs to level up and seronite chaingang are imo the really good ones because it kills shudderwalk how we know it witch is a card i really like but the way it was used is just so annoying and was really frustrating.
-and last but not least yes the nerf to leeching poison is somewhat devided in my opinion. I crafted kingsbane just to screw over bid priest it's my most hated playmethod - really frustrating to play against knowing that your opponant is a complete dushbag and emotes you the whole time brings so much saltyness that i crafted this card alone to counter them. In standard tho probably the right thing because you really have no chance as a controldeck and is frustrating to play against but let's be fair: It's not fun to play against cubelock, it's not fun to play against toggwaggledruid and all the other decks you don't even have a change to interact. If you at least would have a card in the whole set to interact with it somehow it would be a different thing but there is not.
Now we come to the arguments i disagree especially when it comes to the wild meta because i play it a lot
I can tell you druid really IS a crazy powerhouse! The nerf to aviana didn't make a significant change at all. Still i understand your disappointment with the nerf it being the cards that define the class where they perhaps should have nerfed other cards like armorgain and spreadingplague...
The other thing is hunter and yes it is very dominant and perhaps could be annoying but odd warrior witch i play a lot and warrior in general is insanly good. i have played over 80 games and have a 85% wr. hunter lost against me every single time. Warrior is a class that you have to think ahead and can be played very bad with midiocre result or very good. That is the reason why warrior is not in a good spot in hsreplay - because a lot of players don't know how to play the class. The problem i have with oddwarrior is that it is a very expensive deck. New players cant afford it. You have 4 legendaries and about 10 epics.
All in all i understand your frustration and i am glad for the nerfs but i think you are right with some arguments... Have faith with druid as i have with warrior. it will come back ;)
**DISCLAIMER: Yes there's a lot of text but if you go ahead and read it then you'll see that all I said was necessary so if you for whatever reason dislike reading then exit now and don't waste you time posting stuff like "Wall of text, I have a life tee hee I'm so funny LOLZ" thank you.
First of all this is NOT gonna be salty so instead of going for the easy way out,(refering me to the salt thread) I invite everyoneto really gimme your piece of mind about this topic.
Today Blizzard, literally out of nowhere announced 5 nerfs, that suprisingly are gonna come into effect today:
So all this nerfs look pretty good (kinda not really but sure) but if you think deeply into it you'll realize that blizzard actually made huge mistakes and the game is not gonna look better now (which would be the whole point of nerfing stuff right?), let me explain myself here, first let's see why are this nerfs positive and then jump into why they are not fixing the game really.
So first of all this nerfs would look like amazing, specially to the more unexperienced eye right? they attack at most of the currently powerful decks (or more frustating to play ones as well) which would leave the space for other archetypes to come into play and for the sake of this "positive" first part of the review I'll say YES! Wild Growth and Nourish nerfs make Druid super slow now and Druid has been very poweful for a long time so lowering is power a bit should be realy good for the game. Saronite Chain Gang for its very immediate purpose is the same but interaction with cards like Prince Keleseth, Shudderwock and Val'anyr are completely changed to the point where chaing gang is not worth running anymore (and it kills the Lifedrinker/ Grumble, Worldshaker archetype completely) which is very healthy for the game. Level Up! has been problematic since it was printed, first it was solid enough to make it as a 1-off on Dude Paladin back on 2017 and then it became one of the cards that made Odd Paladin an insane powerhouse for all of 2018 and nerfing it means that you don't have that 5-mana back breaker that ended so many games and made your 2 dudes Hero power so scary. Finally Leeching Poison's effect just lasting for 1 turn is a huge hit for KB Rogue, the deck can still run it for the immediate healing but it doesn't have the infinite healing effect which is in reality the point where you lost against it, you either had to be able to burst for 30 dmg (or at least like 20+ dmg on a single turn) or you knew you would just lose to Kingsbane if you didn't manage to kill the Rogue early, so negating its ability to infinetely heal is a blessing for the rest of the meta.
Now let's see why this nerfs are not making the game better (arguably worse) ok?
The biggest offender is for sure the entire Hunter class, what do I mean by this? Well we noticed that the power level of Hunter was pretty high already, Spell/secret hunters and Deathrattle hunters are very popular and very strong decks and Blizzard just made them miles better by killing their better counters. The nerf to Level Up! means that Odd Paladin no longers keep both of this archetypes in check, because yes, hunter can't deal with 2 dudes every turn but they're no longer scary if you cant buff them for +2/+2. Then the nerfs to Druid means that a deck like Taunt Druid can no longer dismantle Spellstone oriented Hunters. KB rogue was a decent match-up against Deathrattle Hunter because Vanish just stops its entire gameplan on a single turn but with the nerfs it doesn't really do anything, like yes you can delay them heavily but you'll just die eventually via big beast. So what's gonna be the deck that stops Hunters now? Big Spell Mage is pretty decent against Spellstone hunters but it gets demolished by Deathrattle, same with Odd Warrior (And you can still lose to an earty Rexxar no matter the Hunter archetype), Even pally has a fair match-up but you still can get locked out of the game by spellstone or 1 good cube turn. The only decks I could see stopping Spellstone variants are DK OTK Paladin and Cubelock and both of those are bad vs. Deathrattle and then for Deathrattle I see stuff like Zoo, Odd Rogue and Even Shaman as good counters but surprise surprise they all get crushed by Spell/secret Hunter so the 2 hunter archetypes literally cover each other backs almost perfectly, the game's gonna be either play hunter for 3 months or play one of the counters to 1 of their archetypes and lose to the other one pretty much. So much for "fixing the game" Blizzard.
Then we have the other aspects of this nerfs... They completely killed Druid, the class identity has been ramping since day 1 and it only became a problem with Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague ( You could also argue about cards like Branching Paths and Master Oakheart but we can all agree that the 2 I mentioned are the biggest offenders) and now the Druid class is doomed to being shit forever for 2 cards that are rotating in 3 months. We all knew that Druid was gonna be bad after rotation as almost all their powerful cards are for the year of the mammoth but nerfing their ramping just leaves them with literally nothing good at all, nerfing both was not the way to go and if anything nerfing UI and plague (again btw) was a way better solution.
Also the timings on Blizzard are always incredibly weird (read stupid)... 3 of the 5 cards are rotating in 3 months and the other 2 are only really good cause of other rotating cards so why nerfing this problematic cards when they stop being a problem in standard? And no don't bring the "wild is important" argument, this nerfs barely affect wild, don't play much wild but let's be honest, the druid nerfs do affect wild but it's not like Druid was a huge powerhouse after Aviana getting nerfed, Odd Paladin isn't even that good on wild and the Level Up! nerf won't kill it as it does in standard. Shudderwock isn't good in wild and even if it was you can still use Doppelgangster for the same effect so it's irrelevant. The only very impactful nerf here is Leeching Poison which again makes KB Rogue awful but that means that a deck like Big Priest loses its biggest counter and that's a deck that the wild community hates more than Kingsbane for sure, so yeah, fun nerf lol.
Finally the fact that hunter was untouched is incredible to me, this nerfs would have been decent if cards like Emerald Spellstone, Play Dead Deathstalker Rexxar Zul'jin or even Katherena Winterwisp (Not so much Kathrena but still and also either of this cards or all of them would have been fine) but Blizzard as always half-asses everything and decides to only adress some of the problematic cards while making it look like everything else is fine. Thanks for reading and I would love to read all of your oppinions :)
Another problem is, the Kingsbane nerf will screw over WIld VERY hard. Kingsbane is one of if not the only deck keeping big priest in check. I can't wait for my big priest meta! :D
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/227961-the-december-2018-nerfs-discussion-thread
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I'm playing in wild and if you ask me Kingsbane is far more stupid then Big Priest (ofc it's also bad). That's why it make me happy.
Missing lethal since February 2014.
There will be plenty of new archetypes that were surpressed by odd Paladin and druid which are capable of keeping hunter in check. It is so easy to counter just hunter if you don't have to fear losing every game to druid/paladin/rogue.
I think the nerfs are great this time.
What about, there are other decks that can do well against Hunters but had problems against Odd Pally or Shud Shaman?
I'm happy because maybe we will see some other stuff than ramp druids or odd paladins which we've seen for too long imo.
Also this opens some possibilities for the next expac.
And finally I love changes, changes are cool (and lucky I don't play any of those decks :p ). Well I have druid cards but I can mill them and complete my Priest/Rogue/Shaman collection.
My big spell mage is much better against hunter than the other two decks. I would much rather play agaisnt a hunter
Would you be happy if people are sad about the nerfs?
What decks? Could you name them instead of saying "there are decks that do good against hunter." (You probably didn't read the entire post as I actually named some of the decks that could benefit from this nerfs as they do well against hunter and also said the reason for those not being super good).
Also all this problematic cards rotate next expansion so it's irrelevant for standard and wild has way bigger problems that the nerfed cards, only the poison is impactful for wild tbh.
This entire thread summarized:
OP: "Blizzard just deleted entire decks from the game therefore making the decks they were keeping in check uncontested, this is an issue"
Everyone else: "Who cares, i'll just play [deck] instead, those decks deserved it i don't even care"
Those who are given more in life, must not cling to it, but risk it all at every moment!
Irrelevant for standard? You know we're still months away from the rotation, right? Some of us would like to enjoy the game until then.
Yeah, enjoy queueing against 30 hunters every day lol
You got some good point but others i would are wrong.
let's start with the good arguments and why i think they are good ...
-You say wild growth and nourish are classidentity cards and that is true and is kinda sad i would liked it more if they touched branching path, spreading plague, ferocious howl and UI all together and juicy psycmelon perhaps to i don't know. I made a post few days ago where i mentioned that warrior lost a lot of it's class identity like fiery waraxe, warsongcommander and charge and the class suffered a lot because of that over time so i guess you might be right that druid is gonna be in the dumpster for some time but who knows...
-The nerfs to level up and seronite chaingang are imo the really good ones because it kills shudderwalk how we know it witch is a card i really like but the way it was used is just so annoying and was really frustrating.
-and last but not least yes the nerf to leeching poison is somewhat devided in my opinion. I crafted kingsbane just to screw over bid priest it's my most hated playmethod - really frustrating to play against knowing that your opponant is a complete dushbag and emotes you the whole time brings so much saltyness that i crafted this card alone to counter them. In standard tho probably the right thing because you really have no chance as a controldeck and is frustrating to play against but let's be fair: It's not fun to play against cubelock, it's not fun to play against toggwaggledruid and all the other decks you don't even have a change to interact. If you at least would have a card in the whole set to interact with it somehow it would be a different thing but there is not.
Now we come to the arguments i disagree especially when it comes to the wild meta because i play it a lot
I can tell you druid really IS a crazy powerhouse! The nerf to aviana didn't make a significant change at all. Still i understand your disappointment with the nerf it being the cards that define the class where they perhaps should have nerfed other cards like armorgain and spreadingplague...
The other thing is hunter and yes it is very dominant and perhaps could be annoying but odd warrior witch i play a lot and warrior in general is insanly good. i have played over 80 games and have a 85% wr. hunter lost against me every single time. Warrior is a class that you have to think ahead and can be played very bad with midiocre result or very good. That is the reason why warrior is not in a good spot in hsreplay - because a lot of players don't know how to play the class. The problem i have with oddwarrior is that it is a very expensive deck. New players cant afford it. You have 4 legendaries and about 10 epics.
All in all i understand your frustration and i am glad for the nerfs but i think you are right with some arguments... Have faith with druid as i have with warrior. it will come back ;)
Independently of the quality of the nerfs.
I got to the conclusion that the main reason is the untranslateable word 'Schadenfreude'...
Because they are removing the biggest cancer currently available in the game.