Hearthpwn

Quote from Othvati >>

Well, Even Paladin was never a problem for priest. You just scream them out of existence. 

 I had no problem playing against priest with even paladin last season.

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Dude962

 

I agree to that too. Not only Saronite, but leeching potion too. They try to get away with the bad designing of cards/mechanics- Shudderwock, Keleseth, Kingsbane, Even/odd mechanics, Quest rogue (via Giggling)- by nerfing other cards to the ground. Instead of that they should not have printed these BS cards or nerf them later and get rid of them.

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with a few others, Blizzard is purposefully nerfing the cheap card (dust wise) in Saronite instead of the expensive card which is the real problem.  No other explanation makes sense.  Which is a great way to alienate your paying customer base imo.  

 Yet, Blizzard just gave away four free packs to everyone.  Because they really want to squeeze every penny out of their gamer base.

Seriously, there's no nerf to Kingsbane card that makes sense.  Leeching Poison was the obvious target.  Kingsbane deck could only do what it could because of lifesteal.  And as for Shudderwalk, yeah, you could have nerfed Grumble, but how to do it without changing the card completely or making it totally confusing?  You can't change its mana cost, and you can't really change what/how is returned to the hand.  Whatever you did, unless you totally changed the card, the Shudderwalk combo would still work.

The nerfs they made were the smallest changes possible that would have the intended effect.  Honestly, IMO, they were spot on.  A small change to a specific card that had the intended effect of stopping the shinanigans of some un-fun (my opinion) decks.  It just unfortunately hit the cheaper cards.

This game now has only 8 classes.
Might make things easier to balance.

fuckin mushroom kobold should have been nerfed too

Quote from Kaladin >>

 It makes more sense to nerf the card that causes the problem.  Sure, you could nerf Grumble instead, and sure it's true that Grumble - so far- has ONLY seen play in Shudderwock decks, but IMO this nerf prevents Shudderwock from going infinite AND possibly opens up new opportunities for Grumble to see play in non Shudderwock decks.   Yeah it kind of sucks for handbuff decks, but given that they're from different expansions, I'm guessing SCG was always intended to summon another SCG, and not a copy of the ambiguous "this minion."  And I'm sure it wasn't JUST Shudderwock decks they were keeping an eye on.  

edit: You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before. 

I think you're forgetting Keleseth in regards to Tempo Rogue.  Shudderwock going infinite was not the problem - nor would it do that without Grumble.  All that did was create one more copy of it itself.  Grumble was and still is the problem, partly due to returning it to your hand but mostly due to forcing you to sit through an endless and tedious animation sequence.  This was an incredibly poorly thought-out nerf.    

Quote from lite0 >>

I don't like these nerfs.  They literally killed two archetypes.

Kingsbane rogue was kind of busted, so fair enough.  I think they could have weakened the archetype rather than kill it, though.  They had to do something if they wanted to nerf it's worst matchup in odd pally, but jeez.

Shudderwock nerf is terrible imo.  I totally understand the reasoning, but the timing is terrible. All they did is make sure the card will see 0 competitive play until rotations happen.  The rotation was going to kill the combo anyway.  You need something like the combo to compete with the power levels of year of the mammoth cards.  They just killed shaman's only consistent tournament deck after it's been around all year.  

Not to mention Saronite is a lot worse in general now since it loses handbuff synergy with keleseth, valanyr, soul infusion, etc.  

Odd paladin is fucked.  It'll still be around but it will no longer be a top aggro deck.  Level up was the best card for the deck, nothing else will give the same level of finisher or ability to protect face against other aggro.  

Not too sure about Druid.  They will probably still be good but they might have to actually play some early cards.  This really makes their curve weird since you can't WG into one of their many power 4 mana cards like Oaken summons, Branching paths, WW, etc.  Might be worth it to just play the 3/1 ramp dude instead of WG.  Odd druid is ded before it even lived.  

Hunters are going to have a field day with this.  Shudderwock, Odd pally, and Kingsbane all kept them in check more or less.  I'm not sure what's going to now.

Priest is really good versus hunter and got hard countered by Druids. That's what I'm gonna be playing from now on.

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

 It makes more sense to nerf the card that causes the problem.  Sure, you could nerf Grumble instead, and sure it's true that Grumble - so far- has ONLY seen play in Shudderwock decks, but IMO this nerf prevents Shudderwock from going infinite AND possibly opens up new opportunities for Grumble to see play in non Shudderwock decks.   Yeah it kind of sucks for handbuff decks, but given that they're from different expansions, I'm guessing SCG was always intended to summon another SCG, and not a copy of the ambiguous "this minion."  And I'm sure it wasn't JUST Shudderwock decks they were keeping an eye on.  

edit: You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before. 

I think you're forgetting Keleseth in regards to Tempo Rogue.  Shudderwock going infinite was not the problem - nor would it do that without Grumble.  All that did was create one more copy of it itself.  Grumble was and still is the problem, partly due to returning it to your hand but mostly due to forcing you to sit through an endless and tedious animation sequence.  This was an incredibly poorly thought-out nerf.    

 The whole point of Shudderwock was to create an infinite endgame.  You ever drop a Shudderwock on a gamble that you'd get the correct order of battlecries, only to fail?  Those games are actually fair and still winnable by either side.  Grumble has nothing to do with it.  If SCG wasn't nerfed, you'd still have options for bounces, creating an endless and uncounterable combo.  

The 1/1 stat nerf to SCG in regards to Tempo Rogue will hardly make a dent.  It's not like that deck was carried by a buffed SCG.  

 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

 It makes more sense to nerf the card that causes the problem.  Sure, you could nerf Grumble instead, and sure it's true that Grumble - so far- has ONLY seen play in Shudderwock decks, but IMO this nerf prevents Shudderwock from going infinite AND possibly opens up new opportunities for Grumble to see play in non Shudderwock decks.   Yeah it kind of sucks for handbuff decks, but given that they're from different expansions, I'm guessing SCG was always intended to summon another SCG, and not a copy of the ambiguous "this minion."  And I'm sure it wasn't JUST Shudderwock decks they were keeping an eye on.  

edit: You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before. 

I think you're forgetting Keleseth in regards to Tempo Rogue.  Shudderwock going infinite was not the problem - nor would it do that without Grumble.  All that did was create one more copy of it itself.  Grumble was and still is the problem, partly due to returning it to your hand but mostly due to forcing you to sit through an endless and tedious animation sequence.  This was an incredibly poorly thought-out nerf.    

 The whole point of Shudderwock was to create an infinite endgame.  You ever drop a Shudderwock on a gamble that you'd get the correct order of battlecries, only to fail?  Those games are actually fair and still winnable by either side.  Grumble has nothing to do with it.  If SCG wasn't nerfed, you'd still have options for bounces, creating an endless and uncounterable combo.  

The 1/1 stat nerf to SCG in regards to Tempo Rogue will hardly make a dent.  It's not like that deck was carried by a buffed SCG.  

You're the one who stated that, and I quote, "You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before"

It is not literally the same as it was before.  You oddly chose to comment on that, forgot about Keleseth and I corrected you.

Again - who wins, or the win-rate even, has nothing to do withe the Shudderwock problem.  It is the animation that is the problem.  Nerfing Saronite kills the deck but does nothing to prevent more than one mind-numbing, tedious animation.  Thus it is a pointless nerf that needlessly affects other decks.  

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

 It makes more sense to nerf the card that causes the problem.  Sure, you could nerf Grumble instead, and sure it's true that Grumble - so far- has ONLY seen play in Shudderwock decks, but IMO this nerf prevents Shudderwock from going infinite AND possibly opens up new opportunities for Grumble to see play in non Shudderwock decks.   Yeah it kind of sucks for handbuff decks, but given that they're from different expansions, I'm guessing SCG was always intended to summon another SCG, and not a copy of the ambiguous "this minion."  And I'm sure it wasn't JUST Shudderwock decks they were keeping an eye on.  

edit: You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before. 

I think you're forgetting Keleseth in regards to Tempo Rogue.  Shudderwock going infinite was not the problem - nor would it do that without Grumble.  All that did was create one more copy of it itself.  Grumble was and still is the problem, partly due to returning it to your hand but mostly due to forcing you to sit through an endless and tedious animation sequence.  This was an incredibly poorly thought-out nerf.    

 The whole point of Shudderwock was to create an infinite endgame.  You ever drop a Shudderwock on a gamble that you'd get the correct order of battlecries, only to fail?  Those games are actually fair and still winnable by either side.  Grumble has nothing to do with it.  If SCG wasn't nerfed, you'd still have options for bounces, creating an endless and uncounterable combo.  

The 1/1 stat nerf to SCG in regards to Tempo Rogue will hardly make a dent.  It's not like that deck was carried by a buffed SCG.  

You're the one who stated that, and I quote, "You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before"

It is not literally the same as it was before.  You oddly chose to comment on that, forgot about Keleseth and I corrected you.

Again - who wins, or the win-rate even, has nothing to do withe the Shudderwock problem.  It is the animation that is the problem.  Nerfing Saronite kills the deck but does nothing to prevent more than one mind-numbing, tedious animation.  Thus it is a pointless nerf that needlessly affects other decks.  

 The animation means nothing.  If your opponent plays 5 Shudderwocks in one turn and the animations are completely removed, how the hell are you winning?  You need to be at full health AND be an OTK deck to pull that off.  Maybe they just need to speed up the animations again. 

So I wasn't entirely correct - they're basically the same (non handbuff SCG decks) but not exactly the same.  Again, the 1/1 stat difference doesn't really matter.  That's not what carried those decks anyways, whereas the copy + bounce effect IS what makes Shudderwock a real deck. 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

 

Quote from Kaladin >>

Quote from Highwayman37 >>

Quote from Kaladin >>

 It makes more sense to nerf the card that causes the problem.  Sure, you could nerf Grumble instead, and sure it's true that Grumble - so far- has ONLY seen play in Shudderwock decks, but IMO this nerf prevents Shudderwock from going infinite AND possibly opens up new opportunities for Grumble to see play in non Shudderwock decks.   Yeah it kind of sucks for handbuff decks, but given that they're from different expansions, I'm guessing SCG was always intended to summon another SCG, and not a copy of the ambiguous "this minion."  And I'm sure it wasn't JUST Shudderwock decks they were keeping an eye on.  

edit: You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before. 

I think you're forgetting Keleseth in regards to Tempo Rogue.  Shudderwock going infinite was not the problem - nor would it do that without Grumble.  All that did was create one more copy of it itself.  Grumble was and still is the problem, partly due to returning it to your hand but mostly due to forcing you to sit through an endless and tedious animation sequence.  This was an incredibly poorly thought-out nerf.    

 The whole point of Shudderwock was to create an infinite endgame.  You ever drop a Shudderwock on a gamble that you'd get the correct order of battlecries, only to fail?  Those games are actually fair and still winnable by either side.  Grumble has nothing to do with it.  If SCG wasn't nerfed, you'd still have options for bounces, creating an endless and uncounterable combo.  

The 1/1 stat nerf to SCG in regards to Tempo Rogue will hardly make a dent.  It's not like that deck was carried by a buffed SCG.  

You're the one who stated that, and I quote, "You still play SCG in decks that run SCG but no handbuffs.  I don't know why you're even bringing up decks like Tempo Rogue.  In those decks, SCG is literally the same as it was before"

It is not literally the same as it was before.  You oddly chose to comment on that, forgot about Keleseth and I corrected you.

Again - who wins, or the win-rate even, has nothing to do withe the Shudderwock problem.  It is the animation that is the problem.  Nerfing Saronite kills the deck but does nothing to prevent more than one mind-numbing, tedious animation.  Thus it is a pointless nerf that needlessly affects other decks.  

 The animation means nothing.  If your opponent plays 5 Shudderwocks in one turn and the animations are completely removed, how the hell are you winning?  You need to be at full health AND be an OTK deck to pull that off.  Maybe they just need to speed up the animations again. 

So I wasn't entirely correct - they're basically the same (non handbuff SCG decks) but not exactly the same.  Again, the 1/1 stat difference doesn't really matter.  That's not what carried those decks anyways, whereas the copy + bounce effect IS what makes Shudderwock a real deck. 

I don't really care about Tempo Rogue, nor do I care about how much it's being affected.  I only brought it up as an example of a deck that will be affected.  This is pointless.

The animation is everything and why people can't stand this card or the deck.  It's a Tier 3 deck ffs, no one cares about the occasional loss to a Tier 3 deck.  That's why this nerf was poorly thought out - to say nothing of the classic druid card nerfs.    

All they had to do for the shudderwock issue was to have all the battlecrys trigger at the same time. in a specific order yes, but with none of the other battlecry animations. 

like BAM play shudderwock, and just have a single animation like maybe a flash of light or the screen goes dark for a second or two and the new board state is shown, not having to sit there through every single battle cry

A Fun deck i really enjoyed playing is now dead in the water because Blizard is terrible at problem solving.

"Continuously playing against these cards can start to feel repetitive, and they can feel so mandatory that they stifle creative deckbuilding decisions."

But it's okay to see Fungalmancer and Leeroy Jenkins every single game? At least the cards that comment was posted on was Druid-specific... These are universally OP

Dopplegangster in wild for the Shudderwock lulz.

Did anyone test if you give your kingsbane leech now and destroy the weapon, does the leech possibly stay? 

This is a slippery slope - it's a bit scary to invest too much into this game because Blizzard regularly "nerfs" many different cards. You think you have an archetype pegged, invest in cards to support that deck, and then several cards are changed because perceived (or real) "power creep".

I would be salty if I were a devoted Odd Paladin/Kingsbane Rogue aficionado, especially if I invested a lot of money into those decks.

 Instead, I believe Blizzard needs to RESTRICT (or outright BAN) cards that can be played in a format. For instance, "Only one copy of Saronite Chain Gang is allowed in Standard play" or "Only one copy of Leeching Poison can is allowed in Wild and Standard play". I do not think they should make a habit of overhauling cards unless they have proven to be problematic after a restriction.

Further, they should have "counters" ready during the various expansions' "adventure/runs"... perhaps wait to release a card or two for each class that is obtainable after a successful run. Perhaps "Earn a 'Warpath' if you beat the Witchwood adventure with Warrior; earn 'Lost in the Jungle' if you beat the Journey to Un'Goro adventure with Paladin" etc. This also gives Blizzard the opportunity to deliver a stealth nerf if they notice "Odd Paladin is STILL obnoxious after the set has been released - lets tailor a few of the class cards that will be available during the run to hose Odd Paladin. And something to offset Kingsbane Rogue as well."

There is no doubt a deck like Odd Paladin was oppressively good. Kingsbane decks are also frustrating, although that's more in relation to certain matchups. It's unlikely that these alterations, as seen above, will ever be reversed, whereas restrictions or bannings can be reversed. 

In other words, do get too comfy with your favorite card because Blizzard has a nasty habit of changing them. For good.

Freeze Shaman Inc! :D

Those were good nerfs. I'm surprised people are flipping from "good nerfs" to "Blizz are greedy assholes."(which to be fair they are, but independently of these nerfs)

People talk about synergy cards and nerf by proxy and how X card should get refunded for the synergy nerf as well, but that will just be so many cards to refund when you go along that line and it's totally unrealistic.

On the Grumble vs Chain Gang discussion - perhaps the nerf to Chain Gang was intended as a way of indirectly nerfing Keleseth a little while hitting Shudder? Keleseth has been in every tempo deck since it has been discovered. Removing Chain Gang would be a slight hit to its power as Chain Gang was very powerful as it doubled up on the buffs.

 On Fungalmancer - I don't really see why that card is nerf-worthy.

Good to know that Druid's identity since the game was released is now completely butchered. Every single ramping card has been nerfed to the ground. 

My mecha'thun Druid went from a 60% win rate to 40% win rate between yesterday and today. its so slow to get anything done without the ramp that even OTK paladins can get their combos faster done than me. What a fucking joke, and it will only get way worse when the rotation happens in a few months.

Every class should have something nice to play regardless of what people think. No class should ever have those moments of "haha Priest" or "haha Warrior" in any expansion. But alas, this is how things are. 

IQuote from IceD34ler >>

Freeze Shaman Inc! :D

 They have wanted Freeze Shaman to work

and this new set gave cards for a working freze shaman deck

Ice Cream Shaman

but Ironically  with the SCG nerf and the death of shudderwock decks, that deck will not be able to grow now.

Saronite Chain Gang was the problem, this nerf is like chemotherapy for hearthstone. No one enjoyed playing against shudderwock, now it's actually fair that it can't go infinite. Fungalmancer does not and will not carry odd paladin, I mean its played win-rate is lower than Raid Leader. The Level Up! nerf killed odd paladin, a bunch of shitty one health minions is barely threatening